Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise of Doc Ock, Parts 1-4" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by RoyalRubble, Jan 21, 2018.

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"Marvel's Spider-Man: The Rise of Doc Ock" - Rate & Discuss the Story-Arc!

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  1. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Catch Marvel's Spider-Man! Disney XD will premiere two new episodes, back-to-back, today starting at 8:00AM ET! Behold the first two parts of a 4-part Doctor Octopus origin story!

    [​IMG]
    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise of Doc Ock, Part 1"
    Episode Debut - January 21st, 2018

    When Otto Octavius is caught in an explosion that fuses his robot arms to his body, Spider-Man sees the opportunity to recruit “The Octopus” into becoming a hero.

    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise of Doc Ock, Part 2"
    Episode Debut - January 21st, 2018

    Spidey invites The Octopus to patrol the streets alongside Miles and himself until it becomes clear that Otto isn’t exactly a team player.

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  2. Matt Parker

    Matt Parker Member

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    The first part was easily one of the best episodes of the series, maybe even the best. I'll post a more lengthy breakdown after I finish part 2.
     
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  3. Frontier

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    It's nice to have the show back. I'd forgotten how much I'd missed watching it :D.

    It's also nice to see a return to 4-part arc's in Spider-Man, all the moreso given it's spotlighting the iconic four-tentacled figure in Spider-Man's life. The show hadn't really done a lot with Otto so far, so it's cool to see them diving more into his character and his relationship with Peter/Spider-Man before he becomes Doctor Octopus :evil:.

    Spidey fighting the Crimson Dynamo was an interesting match-up, though not necessarily all that surprising given the past few Iron Man villains he's gone up against on this show ;).

    It was pretty neat that they went with the only female Crimson Dynamo, Galina Nemirovsky, since that's a bit of an unconventional choice and quite surprising given the armor doesn't indicate her gender at all. But it was cool to see Spidey tangle with another female villain, and for Laura Bailey to get to do a Russian accent :anime:.

    Anybody else curious to see what Galina looks like under that armor :harley:?

    Given Dynamo's reaction to Peter mentioning Tony, I'm guessing Galina has probably faced off against Iron Man before...

    It was cool to see the Spider-Tracers again. And we even got to see (non Tony Stark-designed) web wings :cool:.

    I guess if there was anything this episode captured it's that there can be many sides to one individual.

    On the one hand you could see Otto as an arrogant and cruel taskmaster, who has himself to blame for his accident because he wouldn't let Spider-Man mess with his invention. On the other hand, you could make the argument that Otto is just a very tough teacher and who was heroic in his efforts to save Spidey and Horizon on his own. Even past his arrogance and condescending nature though, Otto has the potential to do good :proud:.

    Similarly, to some Crimson Dynamo might seem to be a common thief or Supervillain, but beneath that she's someone who's experienced a great deal of loss and only wants the power and the resources to prevent that from every happening again. But not everyone with the potential to better themselves from tragedy does so in positive ways :(.

    It was nice to see the show finally remember that Miles exists, even if it it didn't really make any sense that he wouldn't have suited up to deal with Crimson Dynamo like Peter did. At least he got some action in the second part :).

    "The Octopus?" What is this, Arrow :quinn:?

    Maybe Spider-Man wouldn't get mistaken for a sidekick in his own show if he wasn't constantly getting saved by his supporting cast? Just a thought :yawn:.

    I was honestly expecting Max would be the one to clue in on the whole "Peter develops Spider-Man's tech" idea like he did in the comics.

    I kind of would've liked to have seen the show play with Otto as a hero more, since his interactions with Peter and Miles and his attempts at being a hero were actually pretty fun. Granted, it's also admittedly kind of weird to see the future Doctor Octopus being chummy with Spider-Man :sweat:.

    So...Otto's 19-years old. So one of Spider-Man's greatest enemies is only 2-3 years older then he is and isn't even old enough to drink. This show :rolleyes2:.

    Man, Norman really played Otto like a fiddle. I mean, Otto also has his own ego to blame to some degree, but Norman basically orchestrated everything so Otto would end up at Oz Academy and under his thumb. And the worst part is, he succeeded :evil:.

    It's even worse when you get into what he was doing to Connors, forcing him to transform into the Lizard again and again by dangling the potential of re-growing Connors' arm in front of him :mad:.

    I was surprised to see Curt Connors feel so secondary to this episode. I mean, obviously the Lizard and dealing with him was the crux of the episode, but I'm so used to Connors being such an important part of Peter/Spidey's life, and being part of the supporting cast, that it was weird seeing him not be much of a character on his own or really interact with Spider-Man beyond his monster alter-ego :ack:.

    Yuri Lowenthal as Connors/The Lizard was a cool surprise, and he did a pretty effective Lizard voice. I just wish he had gotten more opportunity to play Connors :sad:.

    Also, Curt Connors as a young-looking blonde guy...quite a different look for him :harley:.

    If Max had told Otto that Norman was the one that called about Otto doing secret experiments, things would probably have played out dramatically different.

    I can't help but notice the two times the show explicitly had Otto saying "Superior." I see what you're doing there, show :p.

    Did anyone else notice the receptionist was walking out of OsCorp with his stuff? I guess Norman sacked him :oops:.

    I think that's the first time The Lizard's ever gone full on Kaiju/Godzilla :eek:.

    Did Miles just totally bail and leave curing The Lizard to Peter? I mean, I guess Miles was probably saving civilians, but it kind of came off as him just leaving all the hard work to Peter o_O.

    So what's to stop Curt from revealing to the authorities that Norman was the one who turned him into The Lizard? I mean, does anyone expect Norman to hold up his end of the bargain and help Connors re-grow his arm :rolleyes:?

    So is the only reason Norman is so gung-ho and antagonistic towards Spider-Man because he's so convinced that Spidey is involved with The Jackal's Spider-Army, which Peter has no idea about? Just kind of weird that Peter's enmity with his Archenemy is basically based around a misunderstanding here :confused:.
     
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  4. Gold Guy

    Gold Guy Ride On
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    The first two episodes were solid enough. Amazingly, I still haven't totally gotten used to this version of Otto yet, but he was surprisingly fun as a hero. But ah well, I guess we all knew that wouldn't last. But considering how smart he is, he was fooled a bit too easily by Norman.

    Which, by the way, Norman came across as so cheesy in that scene. "Be the hero you were meant to be." Uh, OK, Norman.

    I like Max, but I feel he keeps driving people to Oscorp. :p
     
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  5. Mostezli

    Mostezli Corroborating with EVIL

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    Dang it, I caught the episodes out of order. Part II is definitely one of the best of the series.
    Miles is used effectively. The chemistry between the trio is on point. The script even down to the science mumbo jumbo was well written.
    Norman manipulation is the best I've seen so far. Conners is pitifully believable as ever.
    Standout moment has to be that whole exchange at the security desk.
     
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  6. Dragnatek

    Dragnatek Well-Known Member

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    I almost got a drug dealer and drug addict vibe from Norman and Connors. That made the horrible situation even worse in my eyes.
     
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    #6 Dragnatek, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  7. Frontier

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    Otto's got such an inflated ego that I'm not surprised he fell hook, line, and sinker for Norman buttering him up.

    Max and Spidey were more upfront with him but he took their honesty as an indication that they didn't recognize his genius, because he's incapable of recognizing his own faults :rolleyes:.
    Vulture, Harry, Otto...heck even Anya tried to get in :p.
    Yeah, usually Connors just does it to himself, but adding in a third party really changes the dynamic...
     
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  8. Matt Parker

    Matt Parker Member

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    So, those were easily two of the best episodes the series has had. Every aspect of the series, from the writing, acting, and animation, was firing on all cylinders. I mentioned in a previous discussion that Otto was the one casting choice I wasn't feeling yet. Thankfully, Scott Menville really proved me wrong and delivered a fantastic performance. I liked how fresh this origin for Ock felt. The accident was pretty typical, with a fusion explosion merging the arms to his body, but the idea of Peter Parker trying to train Octavius as a hero was super fun, and his fall to villainy will make him a very personal foe for Peter in the future.

    In most versions, Octavius is one of the big three largely due to his persistence and longevity. Here, I imagine Spider-Man will see him as one of his big failures. After all, if Peter had somehow been a better mentor, maybe he could have kept Ock on the good side. I've been a fan of this franchise for over 10 years, so to see a dynamic that felt as fresh as this was a good feeling.

    Miles finally returned, and I actually liked his presence here. Sure, he didn't add much of anything, but he had some funny lines and he didn't feel as out of place as he did in his first two appearances as the second Spider-Man. I still think having him get powers so early was a mistake (and maybe the only major issue I have with this show), but he's not awful or anything.

    Crimson Dynamo was a decent tragic villain, but I'm still kinda baffled by why they needed to use that character specifically. I feel like Lightmaster or Beetle could have filled the same role and the episode would have been just as fine, but whatever. I liked how she tied in to the theme of the episode, which was the line between heroism and villainy.

    Lizard was decent too. He did;t get a ton of focus, but I liked that he was basically a victim of Osborn, and his change into a huge monster was a fun call back to the Spider-Man 3 tie in game. In many ways, this take on Connors felt like the writers re doing the version from the Amazing Spider-Man movie, but better (cutting out his goofy plan and making him more of a clear victim), and I liked that. This show certainly seems to enjoy riffing on the movies (Sandman's portrayal was similar, in that he was a better written version of the one from the Spider-Man 3 movie).

    Overall, I'm glad the show is back, and I'm glad we'll (hopefully) get another season after this one. These two episodes cemented this show's place as my second favorite Spider-Man series.
     
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  9. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise Of Doc Ock: Part One"

    I still don't like Scott Menville's Doc Ock. ***.

    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise Of Doc Ock: Part Two"

    Norman Osborn gettin' nasty. What a snake.

    Arachnopus would be a good band name.

    Good second part. ***1/2.
     
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  10. Frontier

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    Yeah, I was still unsure about Scott Menville as Ock (and I'm still not crazy about a teenage Dr. Octopus) but he's really impressed me in these two episodes :).

    He does a good job of capturing Otto's arrogance and intellectual side, as well as his more hammy side once he gets going. I'm eager to hear more as we see Otto's descent into villainy unfold :evil:.
    I think Peter is going to probably continue to hope or try and see the glimmer of good in Otto that he saw in these episodes, even as Otto himself becomes increasingly more unstable and obsessed with destroying Spider-Man as Dr. Octopus :ack:.

    Conversely I think Otto blaming Spider-Man for The Lizard is going to spiral into a full-blown hatred of the Wall-Crawler as this storyline continues :eek:.

    I'm just glad they finally remembered he's a part of the show, although I won't be surprised if he vanishes again next episode :sweat:.

    I think Miles was fun here and had some good lines (especially the part where he tried to pretend he wasn't smart), though I still don't quite feel he has much of a significant role on the show other then as Peter's occasional sidekick :shrug:.

    I also think they need to deal with the issue of his codename. I mean, we didn't see Peter call him Miles in front of Otto, but then we have Norman saying Spider-Man and then referring to the two of them, which just sounds kind of weird...
    I'm just used to Spidey fighting guest Iron Man villains at this point. Better that then Iron Man constantly hanging around :p.

    I also found it funny that they had Laura Bailey voicing another Russian in a Marvel cartoon :rolleyes2:.
    I would at least give ASM a bit of a leg-up since it gave Connors more of an actual character and connection to Peter then what we have here, since Connors was more of a cameo compared to the Lizard.

    Of course, I think one thing both adaptions were lacking (as well as USM), was Billy and Martha.
     
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  11. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    I'll probably post more comments after watching the entire story-arc, but for now here are a few random thoughts:

    - I liked this take on Doctor Octopus. It's kind of original while still being faithful to the classic stories. It was cool how they foreshadowed some of this stuff with Otto having his tentacles in a few previous episodes. I liked his interactions with the others, either with his students, Modell (I like that bit when he explained his loyalty to him) or Osborn, but also his more heroic side while teaming up with Spidey and Miles. I thought they kind of rushed through things with Osborn tricking him so easily to fight Spidey, but I guess he was slowly starting to go a little nuts already. It would have been nice to see more of "NYC's finest super trio", but otherwise, good stuff.

    - Using a female Crimson Dynamo was a little random, but still pretty cool. I don't know much about her, she seems to be the most recent version of the character, but her appearance here was decent. I wish we would have seen her out of the armor, though there's always the chance she might return later on. The fight scenes were entertaining enough. I wonder if part of the reason they went with Galina was because they already introduced Vanko on Avengers Assemble and they wanted something new here.

    - Peter was used pretty well, I liked his little speech to Otto about Uncle Ben's advice. Spidey was used effectively as well, and Miles had some pretty good moments. Their partnership seems to have a nice dynamic but I can sort of see why it wasn't featured in every episode since Miles got his powers.

    - Osborn was great, still a master planner and manipulator. Using Lizard (and pretty much torturing Connors in the process), tricking Otto, etc. All of these events should lead to some more interesting stuff later on.

    - Lizard was a nice addition to the story. They managed to get in all the background information about him. I didn't like the design that much (it seemed a little too chubby) and Connors looked odd as a blond as well. Turning Lizard into a giant monster was also kind of random but I appreciate them doing something different with the character.

    Overall, good stuff. I enjoyed these episodes and I am looking forward to seeing whatever happens next.
     
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  12. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    You could see Otto was already leaning towards Osborn even before Norman started really manipulating him after he tossed the Horizon flower in his hospital room into the trash and left the Oz Academy one intact :ack:.

    I did get a good laugh at that scene where Otto and Max are arguing and Spidey is just standing in the middle awkwardly :p.
    I assume they went with Galina for the same reason they used the Randy Macklin Blizzard, to feature a a variant of an identity that often isn't adapted into other media :).
    I'm really wondering what they're going to do with Gwen and Anya once they get their powers.

    I don't see them having four active Spiders on a consistent basis given how in-frequently they feature Miles, so I guess we might just see them pop in and out to team-up with Spidey depending on the episode.
    I'm definitely curious to see how they start handling Norman once he becomes the Green Goblin, and if his cool and calculating persona will be balanced against however they depict his Goblin personality :evil:.
    I'm curious if he'll ever show up again. Unlike other Spider-Cartoons, there isn't really much relevance Connors has to Peter's life here, and I'm not sure if they'll really want to explore Connors as a character beyond the Lizard here o_O.
     
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  13. BlackoutCreature

    BlackoutCreature Well-Known Member

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    While I found the episodes quite good, I'm also having trouble getting used to Scott Menville's Dr. Octopus. All I keep hearing is evil Kevin French.
     
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  14. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    I agree. Menville is an amazing actor, and has been killing it on Teen Titans Go, but his voice is that of a pipsqueak. He does not have the gravitas to voice someone like Doctor Octopus. Now granted, this version is only 19 years old, but I think THAT was a mistake too.
     
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  15. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Catch Marvel's Spider-Man! Disney XD will premiere two new episodes, back-to-back, today starting at 9:00AM ET! Behold the last two parts of Doctor Octopus' origin story!

    [​IMG]
    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise of Doc Ock, Part 3"
    Episode Debut - January 28th, 2018

    Peter spends a day at Oz Academy in the hopes of finding a clue that will convince Harry that his Dad is out to destroy Spider-Man.

    Marvel's Spider-Man "The Rise of Doc Ock, Part 4"
    Episode Debut - January 28th, 2018

    Spider-Man must team up with Gwen Stacy and a reluctant Harry Osborn to investigate the truth behind the missing Raymond Warren aka the Jackal.

    Comments?

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  16. Matt Parker

    Matt Parker Member

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    Once again, this four parter really impressed me. I'd say the storytelling on display here was on par with the best episodes from any previous Spider-Man show. A solid cap off to the Origin of Doc Ock, as well as a great set up for the origin of a goblin of some kind (but whether that's Harry or Norman has yet to be decided). I think this was the first time we've seen this Peter truly depressed and feeling like he'd completely failed since he started crime fighting, when he failed to save Norman. The sheen of the Spider-Man gig has worn off, and he's realizing that this life is going to be pretty tough. That ending was perfectly executed and shows that, unlike Ultimate Spider-Man, this series has some true pathos to it.

    I also like that this show has taken its time in turning characters we know will be villains one day into villains. Harry 's transformation into a villain of some kind (if that's indeed where he's headed) has been very slow. It's taken him 19 episodes to even be far gone enough to want to harm Spider-Man, and his slow transition has been pretty believable (even though I think his distrust of Spider-Man in the early episodes felt a little forced). The fact that I've gotten to see him as Peter's best friend has made his transformation more painful, and the fact that this Harry is so likable had made this transition a bit more painful than in many versions. If Norman emerges from that wreckage as a Goblin of some kind, I'll be satisfied. If Harry becomes a Goblin to avenge his father, I'll also be pretty happy. I think this storyline has been set up in a way where either outcome will feel like a satisfying direction. Can't wait for the Hobgoblin two parter!

    Doc Ock's development into bona-fide super villain has also been handled with care. I like that even after being framed last week, he still took an extra betrayal to fully become the Doc Ock of the comics. His reveal about having taken control of the Sinister Five (eh, not a great name, but even he admitted that) was a pretty cool scene, and the lineup is a perfect mix of veteran SS members (Ock himself, Vulture and Rhino) and characters I wouldn't have expected (Spider-Slayer, Ollie Osnick), even if they are ultimately mind controlled goons. Between Ock's super team, the Jackal's grand plan for taking over the city, and the looming threat of Hobgoblin (however that goes), Peter definitely has his work cut out for him in the next 7 episodes.

    If I had any problems with these two episodes, it was the continued mishandling of Miles. Once again, he didn't ruin anything for me, but he feels like a completely superfluous character addition who is just there for the novelty of capitalizing on Miles' popularity. I've said this often, but his inclusion is my only main problem with what has otherwise been a very exceptional season. Hopefully he and the other spider-themed characters are put on the back burner next season.

    Overall, this Doc Ock 4 parter was excellent, and these episodes are some of the best Spider-Man animated stories that have ever been produced. I can't wait to see how Spider-Island begins next week. That's a story I remember not being in love with, but I have faith in this series to pull it off. What did everyone else think?
     
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    #16 Matt Parker, Jan 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  17. Rick Jones

    Rick Jones Happy Holidays
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    I just started watching Part 3 and I think I'm pretty much done with Harry and his erratic Spider-Man hate.

    Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Dragnatek

    Dragnatek Well-Known Member

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    Okay I wish they didn't reveal that Norman was still alive at the end of the episode. I mean obviously he wasn't dead and I doubt anyone watching it thought that for a second but leaving it open until his return would have been better.
     
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  19. Capt.Traphouse

    Capt.Traphouse Sexiest Thing Since Sex

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    I don't like Harry characterization, it has been all over the place. Him becoming a villain is weird because his animosity towards Spiderman is weird. Much preferred the well meaning but selfish Harry of SS.
     
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  20. Frontier

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    I was actually happy to think that Harry's relationship with Spider-Man was improving from earlier episodes, but here we're back to square one and Harry's back to calling Spider-Man a menace with dubious reasons, albeit this time with his father's manipulations thrown in for good measure :rolleyes:.

    Where was Herman/Shocker? They made it a big deal that he joined Oz Academy and he's nowhere to be found in this episode. I feel like he would've made more sense then just randomly throwing Ollie Osnick in there :shrug:.

    It was kind of neat to see them introduce the Steel Spider as an Otto Octavius fan and member of Oz Academy, even if he doesn't really resemble his comic counterpart that much beyond that. But hey, when you think about it, Josh Keaton is voicing a Spider-Character again :anime:.

    I wonder what it is about a young, mutated, brainwashed Rhino that seems to appeal to the cartoon writers since it's pretty similar to what Ultimate Spider-Man did. Was that Rhino at the end with the Commando's still supposed to be Aleskei? Did he just off-screen join Oz Academy and then willingly agree to get turned into a mutant Rhino again :confused:?

    Nothing dilutes the uniqueness of something more then making everybody into that thing. First we've got a lot of people getting their own Venom Symbiote in the Venom episode, then we've got a whole pack of Rhino's in this episode, and next week we're going to be getting everyone and their mother getting spider-powers :harley:.

    Alistair's new Spider-Slayer Mecha was pretty cool, although for a second there I thought he was Crimson Dynamo :rolleyes2:.

    Poor Otto. If only he had read the fine print :p.

    I get Harry would probably feel it was a breach of trust that Peter had been working with Spider-Man the whole time he was being pro-Spider-Man to Harry, but given how close and strong their friendship had been prior to that I don't think Harry would have reacted so violently and aggressively to it...let alone act so smug and condescending to Peter in the latter half of the two-parter :crying:.

    I wonder if we're going to start to see the shift to Spider-Man being viewed as a criminal or menace by the general public, what with the reaction to his and Miles' breaking into the prison and getting accused of killing Warren :oops:.

    Heh, Peter's reaction to the idea of riding a bike with Gwen was kind of cute :anime:.

    So Gwen actually wasn't living with her Uncle Warren, though that still begs the question as to whether she's living with her parents and where George Stacy is in all this...

    What exactly is the Jackal's plan? I mean, beyond the Spider-Army? It almost looked like he was planning to transfer all the abilities of the spiders into his own body :ack:.

    Was that even the real Jackal at the end there? I mean, he said he was the original, but is there anyway to really know if he's the genuine article :sweat:?

    Otto's turn to villainy as Dr. Octopus felt a little rushed. I mean, I get Norman ripping off his designs ticking him off, but going from that to turning full-on Supervillain and working with a guy like The Jackal seems like a really big jump, especially only one or two episodes after they had showed him being a hero and an okay guy. Just didn't feel like an organic character progression for him o_O.

    I dunno, this was "The Rise of Doc Ock," but I feel like that took a bit of a backseat to the Jackal plotline in the second half so it feels like we didn't really get to see as much of a natural progression to that as we could have :sad:.

    I agree with Ock that "Sinister Six" is a lot catchier then "Sinister Five," but doesn't Jackal being there make it six people :confused:?

    I doubt it was a coincidence that the gas that enveloped Norman after he smashed the spiders and was about to get consumed by the rubble was colored green. I wonder if the spider blood's and the explosion combined together ended up creating a variant of the Goblin Serum :evil:?

    I wonder if there's something to the fact that Spidey and Norman seemed to come to an understanding at the end there, particularly when Norman asked Peter to save Harry. I'm curious if it might play a bit into their future dynamic once they inevitably stop Jackal and it's proven conclusively that Peter's not working with him :)?

    Holy crud, they blew up Midtown High! What does that mean for Flash, Liz, Randy and Mary Jane :eek:?

    Well, Harry Osborn going off the deep end after the death of his father and blaming Spider-Man is at least true to character even if it felt a bit like a jump like all of Harry's hatred of Spider-Man on this show...

    Where's J. Jonah Jameson when you need him :p?
     
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