"Gotham" Season Four Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'DC Live-Action Movies and Television' started by The Penguin, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. Otaku-sempai

    Otaku-sempai Well-Known Member

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    And here, Fone, I thought that Gotham would have lost you with Penguin's bone-headed License of Misconduct business, an idea that could only work in the context of an outright parody such as Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. And, btw, the late Pratchett's estate should look into suing the producers of Gotham for plagiarism, unless they had a License of Misconduct from the Thieves' Guild of Ankh-Morpork.
     
    #21 Otaku-sempai, Nov 4, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  2. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Oh, it totally did. I didn't post my review of the premiere on Toon Zone but I thought it was the dumbest thing ever.
     
  3. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Gotham "A Dark Knight: Stop Hitting Yourself"

    3 weeks out of 4, Gotham is the worst superhero show on the air, and often ever (depending on how bad the week is). But about 1 in 4 episodes is actually pretty good for what it is. That was (mostly) this week.
    \
    Let's get the gripes out of the way first: The Lee stuff. I've blathered over and over again at how wrong the writers are doing by the character, but let's just say it is still terrible.

    I kind of feel that if Jim were actually Harvey's friend, or even a halfway worthwhile human being, he would have broken the news to him gently at the end, instead of theatrically relieving him of duty. I think the producers thought it was a big moment. And it was. About as big a moment as Jim's first degree murder of Mario Falcone. That doesn't mean Jim isn't also detestable for it.

    But I do see the logic of taking the job. Harvey is fired, and the GCPD will only function with either him or Harvey in charge. If it isn't Harvey, it has to be him. It's in the entire department's best interest that he accept, instead of one of Penguin's goons. Usually when Jim acts like he's better than the mobster who did him a favor at the end of the episode, I always am SO angry at him for accepting the favor, and pretending he has the high ground when he is exactly as crooked at the mobster he's judging. Except, in this case, he didn't actually ask or want Sophia to do that for him, and it probably caused a lot of personal problems for him. This is the one time I feel he has absolutely earned his ingratitude.

    I love the Grundy stuff, because he's like Butch for a split second, (even talking like him) and then Tabby knocks him all up the hell out. As much as I loved the moment, I think it was probably a narrative mistake. Because now I'll want more of those moments. And the premise of Solomon Grundy means they are not coming.

    I think if Riddler even had a lick of common sense, he'd understand exactly WHY he shouldn't have Grundy fight Tabitha, and what a threat to the fiction he's created for his puppet she is. It's a good thing he's dumb, and doesn't mind the idea of giving them an extended moment of close contact (no matter what it is). If Tabby hadn't knocked him out at "Tabby?" Ed may have been screwed.

    Love that Penguin kills the guy who called Ed the Riddler, and I love that the girls can get away with laughing about it because they actually knew Ed. I like that Selina isn't scared of Penguin for a split second, even when he has the letter opener in the guy's neck. She thinks he's nothing special. And she's right.

    Interesting that Penguin insisting he and the kid weren't friends is the thing that made him second guess Sophia. He's suspected her many times before, but the difference there is that he believed she was outwardly out to get him, and building an army to kill him and take his place. She doesn't actually need to do that to get the power she is looking for. I am less impressed that Oswald figured it out with no outside help, and more annoyed that it even took him this long.

    Chickens. Friendship. Humbug.

    Okay, officially over Bridget. My sympathy for her and her Firefly plight is long gone. Maybe the writers dropped the ball there, but Selina didn't seem too heartbroken either, so it's more than likely that she simply is not a character worth caring about.

    A rare good week. Not perfect, but it's this show. About the best that can be expected. ****.
     
  4. The Penguin

    The Penguin All Hail the King!
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    Gotham is on now!

    [​IMG]
    "Let Them Eat Pie"
    Thursday, November 16, 2017 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on FOX
    Professor Pyg tries to involve Jim Gordon as much as possible during his torment over Gotham City.
     
  5. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Gotham "A Dark Knight: Let Them Eat Pie"

    Some nice moments, but that was overall dumb.

    Let's get to nice moments first. Penguin's very sincere scene with Martine was fantastic. He wants to believe this kid, and I think he does finally want a real friend in him. And he is so vulnerable in that moment. I also liked him stabbing the guy for saying, "Who cares if some urchin gets killed?" and instantly (however briefly) forgiving Sophia's betrayal because she was willing to eat human pie.

    But seriously, the Pyg stuff is dumb. Hannibal: The Series pretty much guessed that human beings taste delicious. Cows taste great because they eat sweet corn. All of the wonderful things we eat probably make our flesh taste delicious if prepared properly. A much better idea than Pyg's dish making them gag is them surprisingly enjoying it and being disturbed by it. Pyg must be a terrible cook.

    Or maybe they just plain enjoy it, and say so, and it turns out to be poison. That would have been much more interesting.

    Also, Pyg's plan made no sense. It was to show how horrible the rich are that they eat the poor. Well, he's the one who killed the poor and is making them eat it. There is no lesson there. The rich being forced to do that aren't the monsters. Pyg is. It is a far cry from him punishing crooked cops. You could almost argue his mission then was righteous. But his "plan" as it were, not only was dumb, but it was completely inconsistent with how the character was set up.

    Bruce Wayne is a terrible human being. He actually pulls the "be the butler" card. This show has a lot to answer for in making Gordon suck so much, but I refuse to accept that being attached to Bruce too. This show is the worst.

    Mostly negative impression. **1/2.
     
    #25 Fone Bone, Nov 17, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  6. The Penguin

    The Penguin All Hail the King!
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    New Gotham! Tonight at 8 p.m. ET.

    [​IMG]
    "Things That Go Boom"
    Thursday, November 30, 2017 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on FOX
    Gordon tries to broker a deal with Penguin that involves Sofia. Meanwhile, Alfred tries to pull Bruce out of his teenage-angst and downward spiral.
     
  7. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Gotham "A Dark Knight: Things That Go Boom"

    These are the grunts that came out of my mouth as I was watching this episode: "Urg", "Meh", "Umm", "Ick", "Grr". But by the end of the episode, everything sort of came together. Usually Gotham starts off strong, and gradually goes off the rails, but the opposite happened here.

    Because I was super disappointed in Sofia's "Master Plan" all throughout the episode. When she threatens the Dentist's family, the show is trying to portray her as cunning for it, but instead it's a basic "cover your ass" maneuver if you ask me. Every villain everywhere usually has that kind of contingency in place should something happen to them. This is Mr. Robot's Wednesday.

    And I like the moral that it's not enough. It's foolish to go to war with the hand she had. Kidnapping Martine seems like a good idea on paper. But one of the good things about the Penguin is that he is a convincing liar. When he tells Martine sincerely that cares about him and the car blows up, I assumed that was that. And seeing as Penguin got the upper hand from it, I wouldn't even think him a monster for sparing the kid the potential suffering this woman was obviously intending to put him through. Her entire plan against Penguin hinges on the fact that he's reasonable. She never factored in how crazy and cold-blooded he is.

    Or is he? I like him faking Martine's death because he could have his cake and eat it too. He does have to lose Martine. But he doesn't have to kill him to get the upper hand with Sofia. It turns out she is holding a hand with a high card of 9.

    She does have Barb's number at the end though. Yeah, she's now a longshot. But they already threw in with her, and she is literally their only option left. I cannot tell if Sofia leveraging her stupid mistake into a power move is cunning or infuriating. I will probably decide on that next week.

    Lee's stuff with Riddler made me gag. She should not ever be forgiving him. And not just because he'll eventually turn on her (which he will). But because he doesn't actually deserve her friendship and forgiveness.

    No Bruce and Alfred as advertised. Good. I'm sick of the both of them.

    I predict Victor Zsasz dies by the end of the season. Because he is the best character on the show with Butch "Grundified", and this show loves getting rid of its best assets. It always seems to think it's better for sucking.

    Speaking of which, the reason it took me so long to warm up to the episode is how the show treats the inmates at Arkham. Arhkam is literally the worst and most harmful trope in the entire Batman mythos. There are legit cases to be made that Batman is a great mythic story overall. But as long as Arkham is a thing, it isn't really. Gotham seems to not only have taken the worst Batman concept ever, but something managed to make it FAR worse than any other previous version, comic, cartoon, or live-action. How amazingly does Gotham eff up? It is the absolute worst at the absolute worst thing about Batman. A good project will try to make the sucky subjects if not palatable, than at least acceptable. But damn, the show treats the Arkham inmates as cattle, and dehumanizes them as if they are nothing. It's sick, and when all is said and done, it might wind up being the very worst thing about the entire adaptation. Which is saying something, because they otherwise fudge up a LOT.

    I love Penguin striking the deal with Jim (which Sofia foolishly blew up) because it reminds me something about Oswald that hasn't really been present this season. On a certain level, Oswald LIKES Jim Gordon, and is rooting for him. He has far less tolerance this season because Jim is openly defying him, but the truth is if Oswald gets the chance to make a bloodless peace with Gordon, he'll take it. Because he remembers what he told him in the Pilot: That the city actually needed people like him. And I like to think he still thinks that when the chips are down.

    I really liked the episode. ****.
     
  8. The Penguin

    The Penguin All Hail the King!
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    New Gotham, right now on FOX.

    [​IMG]
    "Queen Takes Knight"
    Thursday, December 7, 2017 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on FOX
    Gordon, Sophia and Penguin are forced to react when the discover Carmine Falcone has come to Gotham.
     
  9. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Gotham "A Dark Knight: Queen Takes Knight"

    I disliked that. Perhaps not as intensely as some episodes of Gotham. But outside of some rare nice moments, I felt angry and upset watching this.

    Let's get to the couple of nice moments before I start my complaints.

    Victor Zsasz being especially moved by Falcone's death felt right to me, as did him betraying Penguin for it. I was fascinated at the amount of grief / non-grief the character did / did not express at the funeral. Were I Oswald I would have probably put all of my efforts during the episode into proving I was innocent specifically to him.

    I also love the stuff with Tabby and Butch and it pisses me off that Drew Powell, as great as he is as Grundy, is no longer usually allowed to play the nuance he did with Butch. I miss Butch. More than any other character. Gotham always gets rid of its best assets

    Case in point, John Doman. The specific reason I was so upset at him dying was because it made Sofia right. And she has been such a sloppy player on the Gotham Game of Thrones that I felt tonight's outcome bordered on the coincidental. But he's calling her a disgrace and disappointment, and telling her she's gross for sleeping with the man who killed her brother, and I was cheering. Right up until he hit her, which is standard for this show. This shows loves having righteous men commit violence against women and imply they have it coming. I would have totally been on Carmine's side had he not done that. But this is a show that traffics in depravity.

    Speaking of which, this show has ruined Bruce in the same way it has James Gordon. It just took them longer. But I will never like or root for this version of Bruce Wayne ever again. He is unworthy of being Batman and my mind will never change. Here is something extra disgusting: This young kid wakes up in bed with two women. One of the selling points of Gotham was supposed to be that it covered a portion of Bruce Wayne's life that had barely been explored. Am I truly supposed to be happy Batman loses his virginity to a couple of drunken party girls? I keep hearing loser producers like Geoff Johns call comic books grand mythic melodrama that hold up to Shakespeare. Do the producers of Gotham, who are in the RARE position to show a version of Batman lose his virginity, actually think that idea is epic and mythic? Because it strikes me as tawdry and trashy and designed to shock the audience. Epic myths are what the people who make comic books try to sell and justify them as. Tawdry trash is what they actually are. This is definitely a case in point.

    Don't even get me started on Professor Pyg dying before Batman even existed.

    I don't know how to make this show better. They keep killing off the best characters, and turning the characters that USED to be the best characters into the worst characters. Gotham is not the kind of show that introduces the best aspects of the comic book world to general audiences to show how cool comics can be. They introduce the worst aspects and expect general audiences to have as terrible of taste as the average superhero comic hero fan. The thing that pisses me off, is that the show is still on the air in season four, so general audiences must like it on some level. Which is a whole different level of depressing. Maybe it isn't just comic book fandom that is effed up. Maybe it's all of society. And this show's success leads me to believe it might actually be the second thing.

    Golden age of television my ass. *1/2.
     

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