Every Superhero's arch villian

Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by Hour Man, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Singularity

    Singularity Dullard.

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ares hasn't been very antagonistic to Wonder Woman since Perez's run. Now even less so. I'd give it to Circe, or even Devastation, to tickle the obscure.
     
  2. RAINMAN

    RAINMAN Kikoutei Densetsu

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,620
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would put venom,kingpin,doc ock&carnage as spiderman arch villians before the green goblin.
     
  3. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    8,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    The worst thing Doc Ock did was kill Capt. Stacey and even then it wasn't planned. He's a cool character with some cool storylines but nothing he's done really qualifies him as arch villian. He's up there though, I think a good analogy would be Capt. Cold is to Flash as Doc Ock is to Spiderman.

    Venom is too much of an anti-hero.

    Kingpin has never been one of Spiderman's arch villians. I think Kingpin is like the Dr. Doom for the urban NY superheroes like Spiderman, Daredevil, and Punisher. They all tangle with him and hate his guts, still he's Daredevil's arch villian.

    Carnage is Carnage, at best he was Venom's arch villian. I'm glad the Sentry killed him, that's all I'm going to say.

    The Green Goblin though... Green Goblin banged Spidey's girlfriend and then threw her over a bridge. That's an arch villian.
     
  4. Paul_Cousins

    Paul_Cousins Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    8,565
    Likes Received:
    0
    True, but that was only the opening act to what Norman (Green Goblin) did to Peter after he (Norman) faked his death.
     
  5. Sharklady

    Sharklady Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2001
    Messages:
    8,964
    Likes Received:
    0
    These are a bit obvious, but may as well be added:

    The Powerpuff Girls - Mojo Jojo

    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - The Shredder

    The Brain - Snowball

    (I know The Brain isn't really a superhero, but I'm including him in deference to this website's history.)
     
  6. RAINMAN

    RAINMAN Kikoutei Densetsu

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,620
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure if you want to buy into cheap sock value stories like sin past. Killing gwen is the only good thing GG did. To bad he did it out of cowerness. Wheather venom is a anit hero or villain, he drove spdierman and his family crazy and came close to killing spider many times if not for the FF/Human torch. Carnage is one of the few viallin spider can`t beat on his own. Can`t say the same for the GG. But enjoy you happynees for now. Cause carnage won`t be dead for long. And sentry is a lame hero anyway.


    By the way, doc oct did not killed stacy`s father.
     
  7. Xurk

    Xurk Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,118
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, indirectly, Doc Ock did kill Captain Stacy, as he was the cause of the debris falling to the street. You can't really say Stacy committed suicide by saving that kid...

    I'm sure Carnage will be back sooner or later, no question about it. But he's definitely not Spider-Man's arch nemesis, that is undisputably the Green Goblin? Why? Because the writer's make him it. We don't get to choose.
     
  8. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    8,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't like the storyline either, but he still banged Spidey's girlfriend. The story actually wasn't designed as a shock value thing. JMS wanted to do an actual story where Gwen had gotten knocked up before her death and Peter had to deal with having kids. Editorial changed it into super aging Norman kids.

    Also, if you read the old school Spidey stories then you see how big a pain in the ass the Goblin really was. He was the first real big threat for Spiderman. Beyond that you have the rule of opposite but equal when it comes to the arch villian. Green Goblin is Spiderman's opposite but equal. He's very smart and superpowered but uses this for evil. Also while Peter is poor and young, Norman was someone of authority.

    Yes, but at the same time Venom isn't always played as a bad guy. I'm not saying an anti-hero can't be an arch nemesis because we obviously have Magneto. It's just that Venom grew to not even hate Spiderman that much. He's a cool character in the mythos but he doesn't have the pure hate/hate relationship that Norman and Peter have.

    That's like saying Doomsday is Superman's arch nemesis. Carnage has no personality and doesn't even have enough good stories to his credit to be called an arch nemesis.

    Actually, he'll probably stay dead till the next editorial change. And Sentry is awesome and so is the Void who is the best arch nemesis ever.


    Not intentionally, but yeah... he did.
     
  9. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17,523
    Likes Received:
    236

    I never heard that JMS changed the story by editorial mandate. In fact, I've read that Marvel has a contract with JMS, saying that they will not alter his scripts, (which is why, in my opinion, some of his stories suck...there's no editor stepping in and saying, "Hold off, you shouldn't be doing this!"). So I am thus led to believe that Gwen's kids were from the start intended to be Norman's, and not Peter's.

    I also believe that the story wasn't really written for shock value, (instead, it was meant as a tribute to Gwen's character). Of course, I'm the only living person who actually liked the "Sins Past" storyline, so what do I know...(and though I liked it, I do have problems with how the story arc's ramifications mix in with the rest of the Marvel universe...are the Stacy twins going to be forgotten like baby May was in the 90's?!?)

    Actually, if you read those early Spider-man issues, it appears to me that at first, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko were setting up Doc Ock to be Spider-man's arch-nemesis, (he was the first supervillian to beat Spidey in a battle, and he was responsible for the death of Betty Brant's brother). But then the Green Goblin came along...but I don't think he was meant as the arch-villian from the start. Instead, he was just a cool "mystery villian" whose true identity we weren't supposed to know. Doc Ock was still the "arch nemesis" for a while after GG's introduction, as can be seen by the fact that it was Doc Ock that formed the Sinister Six, not GG, (as shown in the first Amazing Spider-Man annual), and it was Doc Ock who trapped Spider-man at the bottom of the river, (preventing Spidey from getting that cure to Aunt May when she was dying).

    The change between arch-enemy's seemed to come around the time that John Romita took over as artist for the title. Steve Ditko didn't want to reveal the true identity of the Green Goblin, or if they did end up revealing the identity, he wanted it to be a person nobody had ever heard of. Stan Lee figured that was stupid, and Steve Ditko quit in protest. John Romita took over as artist, and lo and behold, the Green Goblin was revealed to be Norman Osborn, the father of Peter's best friend Harry. This led into the period where Norman would become Spider-Man's arch nemesis, (because it made for a much more interesting and personal dynamic, with them being friends and all...Peter and Doc Ock had nothing in common, besides both of them being scientists).

    While I agree that it made sense to eventually reveal who the Green Goblin really was, I'm disappointed that it came at the expense of reducing Doc Ock's stature in the "arch enemy" department. But maybe that's just because I'm a huge Doc Ock fan. :)
     
  10. Ed Liu

    Ed Liu Frog of Thunder
    Staff Member Moderator Reporter

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,624
    Likes Received:
    107
    Howdy,

    Apparently, JMS has confirmed this at a panel appearance:

    I think this same change is why Gwen & Norman's kids had that accelerated aging thing in the story.

    It's also very highly unlikely that JMS has a "no editorial interference" clause in his work-for-hire contract. For characters like the FF and Spider-Man, Marvel is a manager of a character that is a major source of revenue. If JMS decides that Peter Parker is more compelling as a mass murderer, a child molester, or something similarly unsavory, it would be extremely foolish for Marvel not to nix it. The "no editorial interference" rule probably applies to his creator-owned comics in Marvel's Icon line, though.

    -- Ed
     
  11. Stu

    Stu Marvel Animation Age Webmaster
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Messages:
    18,417
    Likes Received:
    30
    I believe he has control over his scripts, not his actual stories. I assume that they're discussed and approved and such before they're actually written by JMS himself. They would have to be, Amazing Spider-Man has been pretty much a lead up to a big event of part of a big event for the past two years and various other titles need to be told so they don't have conflicting stories.

    I hope they get rid of him on both titles soon. He's overstayed his welcome on Amazing and his Fantastic Four is utterly tedious.
     
  12. trayguy

    trayguy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2004
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    0
    Superman-Lex LUthor
    Batman - The Joker
    Flash-Grodd the Ape
    Wonder Woman-Cheetah
    Justice League-Mondru
    Legion of SuperHeroes-The Fatal Five.
     
  13. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17,523
    Likes Received:
    236
    Oh dear god, Ace, why did you have to go and prove me wrong? Ugh, that's what I can't stand about Marvel: Heaven forbid Peter Parker grow old and have kids...(see, if JMS had written it from the start that Norman would be the father, that'd be a bit different, but this just confirms Marvel's being stupid about the whole "Peter having kids" thing)...and the fact that they had to come up with some sort of means for advanced aging, just so they could have the children be adults...DAMMIT, MARVEL, ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TIME PASSES IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE!!!

    And like Stu said, it must be for his scripts they have no editorial control, not his stories...cause I'm almost certain that I read something to that effect somewhere...
     
  14. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    8,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    What sucks is that Marvel Editorial overall is pretty solid about the passage of time and is trying to shake up the status quo, but screw up when it comes to X-men and Spiderman. With New X-men we had this really cool change to the status quo where Magneto was dead and we were finally moving into new territory with mutants as a sub-culture. But they had to bring Magneto back from the dead and de-power the majority of the mutants.

    With Spiderman, it's getting just plain stupid. They've been trying to de-marriage him since the Clone Saga and it hasn't worked yet. The biggest shame is that JMS is pretty good with the Peter/MJ relationship and the idea of Gwen being knocked up by Peter actually works out since she did leave the comics for a short time. If editorial had just let him do the story he wanted then we may have gotten some pretty kickass stories.
     
  15. Jon T

    Jon T Friendless Spidey

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    12
    I've heard this too. In fact, the first time it came to my attention was when the Hulk apparently made an appearance in an issue of FF where his personality was more-or-less completely at odds with how he was portrayed in his own book.

    It's obviously not as much of an issue now, with the Hulk off on another planet, but for the last few years the position on the Hulk for Marvel's top writers has seemingly been that his personality is whatever that writer wants it to be for that story, with little or no regard to concurrent continuity.

    And in a desperate attempt to stay on-topic, I never liked how JMS has basically ignored virtually all of Spider-Man's top arch villains in favor of his own...efforts. Things began to turn sour in Amazing Spider-Man right after JrJr left the title. I wonder if it was just a coincidence he left just before the reprehensible Sins Past storyline?
     
  16. Ed Liu

    Ed Liu Frog of Thunder
    Staff Member Moderator Reporter

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,624
    Likes Received:
    107
    Howdy,

    Sorry, man. If it makes you feel better, I've taken a whole "stick my fingers in my ears and shout LA-LA-LA-I-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU for everything in JMS's run after he put Peter and M.J. back together. I find a lot of comic stories become more palatable by taking such an approach :D.

    Just don't ask how I know the plot to "Sins Past" or that JMS had talked about it in public.

    And in another vague attempt to swing this thread back on topic, I'm not sure that Spidey really has a single arch-villain in the same way that, say, Superman or the X-Men do. I think equally valid cases can be made for both Norman Osborne/Green Goblin and Doc Ock. I think the slight edge goes to Gobby because even though Ock's been a thorn in Spidey's side since forever (or, maybe, the other way around), the battle between Spidey and Ock has nowhere near the personal dimension that Spidey/Gobby does.

    -- Ed
     
  17. RAINMAN

    RAINMAN Kikoutei Densetsu

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,620
    Likes Received:
    0
    The reason why I think sin past is CSV is casue most of the goblin stories are written as CSV starting way back from the clone sega. At first it was the jackel, then a year later it was GG the whole time? So I guess they feel if a big viallin was behind it that all would like the clone sega? Didn`t work for me. You think they could have come up whit a better story to bring someone back. Sense then GG seem to be used then nothing more but a characters in CSV stories and the writers made sure most of it happend in milestones issues too. Of course you guys are entitle to your opinion but i can`t see how anyone can put up whit these kind of stories. If this keep up the writers gonna pulled a darth vader type story on us whit GG telling peter hes his real father.:eek:
     
  18. randomguy

    randomguy Came, liked Ike, and left.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    9,702
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would argue that what makes a villain an arch-villain doesn't have necessarily to do with how much trouble they've caused but the extent to which they're the opposite of the hero. In other words, a true archvillian works because they're everything the hero is not.

    Lex Luthor and the Joker, for Superman and Batman, respectively, are great examples, as characters that are 100% the flip side of the coin for their superheroes. Superman represents might as right, altruism embodied in a (semi)human form while Luthor represents the ultimate in cynicism and human folly. Batman represents the use of tragedy as a catalyst to reaching the heights of human potential, while the Joker is the perversion of that perspective, the view that all of human existence is a grand joke because at any given moment a single thing can go wrong and ruin it all.

    Magneto is probably the best overall example, though, as the character who presents the entirely logical and reasonable counterpoint of the X-Men's mission.

    From that line of reasoning, you could reasonably deduce that the archrival of Spider-Man would represent power completely unencumbered by responsibility, which in many ways is Doc Ock's MO... the pursuit of scientific knowledge and power without the faintest regard to who it hurts. The Goblin's vendetta is more personal in nature... he's Peter Parker's archvillian, but not Spider-Man's. That's my take, at least.

    Of course, in that view, there are some heroes who really can't have an archvillain, because the hero is too generic thematically for an opposite number to exist. The Flash is a good example. As much as I love the Flash and think he's neat, there's no thematic core to the character, outside of "he runs fast and fights crime,", so there's no opportunity for an opposite number. Zoom has undoubtedly hurt the Flash the most, and he's reflective of his rival in obvious ways, but thematically there's really not much interplay going on there.
     
    #38 randomguy, May 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2006
  19. Sharklady

    Sharklady Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2001
    Messages:
    8,964
    Likes Received:
    0
    ^ Good essay, randomguy.
     
  20. ifthismeansevos

    ifthismeansevos It's been a while.

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is indeed a very wise observation. Also ithere is the Tragedy/Comedy fact between Batman and the Joker. it makes a lot of sense. And maybe you're right between Dock ock and spidey but also about the Green Goblin and Peter. That' leaves certainly a lot of heroes without an archnemesis.
     

Share This Page

  • Find Toonzone on Facebook

  • Toonzone News

  • Site Updates

    Upcoming Premieres

  • Toonzone Fan Sites


Tac Anti Spam from Surrey Forum