"DC's Legends of Tomorrow" Season One Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'DC Live-Action Movies and Television' started by The Penguin, Jan 21, 2016.

  1. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    Where to start....

    Kendra meets one of her past selves. Attitude problem creates awkward, confusing scenario. Not fun.

    Martin meets a young H. G. Wells. What's next? Meeting a young Arthur Conan Doyle?;)

    Ray has another markout moment, posing as a sheriff. If it wasn't for the Rayendra subplot, I'd think Atom was being used as comedy relief.

    Did anyone not catch the reference to John Albano, co-creator of Jonah Hex?

    Part of the retcons done with Hawkman in the books in recent years was to include the DC Western hero Nighthawk as one of Carter's past lives. That's where Hannibal Hawkes comes from, BTW.
     
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  2. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    I feel like kicking myself for not realizing the connection between Jonah and the Wild West to Rip's style and the name of his son. And it makes a lot of sense that Rip, with his heroic and noble tendencies and how much of a rebel he is to the Time Masters' laws, would feel so at home doing good and upholding the law in the period of the wild west :cool:.

    I thought Jonah was pretty good here and the episode used him fairly effectively. He was the gruff, mysterious bounty hunter that he should be, with obvious moral leanings to the side of good, and he played off Rip and the team quite well. I especially liked him doing a hail mary once Jax and Stein became Firestorm. I also liked the mention of Quentin Turnbull, and I wonder if Hex hunted him down and killed him after what happened to the town? All in all, definitely would not mind seeing Jonah again :D.

    It was neat seeing Mick act as knowledgeable about time travel and the Time Masters as Rip, while still being Heat Wave, befitting the time and effort the Time Masters spent turning him into Chronos. It ads an interesting new layer to his character that he's now kind of an expert on time travel in his own right. Maybe he should give Flash some advice the next time they fight each other :sweat:?

    Though all that training didn't help him outdrink Sara ;).

    I think it's kind of telling that Kendra instantly took the first chance she got to try and find Carter again, while her current lover was put into a dangerous position of being a sheriff in a town ravaged by an outlaw gang. I mean, sure he had the rest of the team to back him up, but the least she could do is stay there and react to what Ray's doing and the position he's putting himself in o_O.

    But with that said, Ray did a pretty good job as a tough, lone lawman, even if he was still obviously having a lot of fun with it. I liked how he started reading Jeb his miranda rights even when those won't exist for a few centuries :p.

    Seeing an older past life of Hawkgirl was really neat, as well as getting a mention of Hannibal Hawk (which I guess makes this Hawkgirl Katherin "Cinnamon" Manser?), especially given she managed to apparently avoid Savage and live out the rest of her life in some peace. It'll be interesting to see if what she said about the curse of the Hawkgirl's to be incapable of getting over Carter's death and finding love elsewhere will turn out to be true for Kendra. Though with her Carter already dead, she's in the same position as this version of herself :(...

    It was weird seeing some of the Legends killing people, especially Ray, and Atom going piercing that bad guy's body was really surprising :eek:.

    I don't think the timeline will begrudge Professor Stein for using future medicine to save H.G. Wells :).

    I didn't expect Mick's fire obsession to have started from such an early age, though it makes sense. But I recall Snart originally explained it's origins from Mick almost being burned alive from a job :ack:.
     
  3. Jordan Valdés

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    This just wasn't one of my favorite episodes. It was OK, but I watched a review of it where both hosts said it was the best episode of the season, and I really wondered if we watched the same episode.

    First off, I'm really not a big Jonah Hex fan. Now, John Schaech's performance was a lot better than Josh Brolin's in that atrocity of a film, but the character just hasn't ever interested me that much.

    Also, the Rayendra stuff is really starting to bug me a bit. I understand that it connected in this episode with Rip having trouble letting go of the Wild West and the idea of fate when Kendra met her past self, but it's getting dragged out, and I don't know where they're going with it. Part of the problem might be that Ciara Renee stands out to me as a weaker actor than her cast mates.

    Something I did like in this episode was the final fight scene with the Hunters. It had never crossed my mind that Ray could use the Atom suit like a bullet; that was kinda awesome (even though I wonder what justified them killing in this episode, which is another problem I had with it).

    The cliffhanger at the end with The Pilgrim was pretty cool. The idea of her going back and trying to kill the team's younger selves is just one of those time travel concepts that is so fascinating to play with.
     
  4. Road to Gotham

    Road to Gotham Well-Known Member

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    I had a big SMILE when Ray introduce himself as "JOHN WAYNE"
    One of my All-Time Favorite actors.

    I thought Jonah Hex was rather low key and didn't seem have much to do.
    This episode needed to be a 2-parter.

    Hannibal Hawks was named dropped.
    In the comics Hawks code name in the Old West was NIGHTHAWK.
    Geoff Johns reveal in his HAWKMAN series that one of Hawkman and Hawkgirls's past lives
    was Nighthawk and Cinnamon.
     
  5. The Penguin

    The Penguin All Hail the King!
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    "Last Refuge" April 21, 2016

    Careful kiddies! Tonight at 8 p.m. ET on The CW.

    [​IMG]
    "Last Refuge"
    Thursday, April 21, 2016 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on The CW
    The team is targeted by The Pilgrim, a deadly assassin who wants to erase the Legends from the timeline by killing their younger, non-superhero selves.
     
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  6. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    In a word---awkward. That's all I can say.
     
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  7. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    So Rip's real name is Michael? Like Michael Jon Carter, Booster's real name? I wonder if that was deliberate and is telling towards his real parentage :)?

    Remember when Lance had hair? That feels like such a long time ago. It was also nice to see more of the well-adjusted, happy, father Detective Lance again before the whole Queen's Gambit thing happened and his life went downhill. And putting his daughter through what's basically a softer version of Scared Straight, though somehow I expect Laurel didn't have to go through the process being arrested just for "fun" :sweat:.

    That was really nice of Professor Stein to give Jax the chance to meet his father and interact with him before he got deployed, and seeing Jefferson awkwardly talk with the dad he never got to know while wrestling with whether to alter the future to save him was a very engaging conflict. I wonder if Mr. Jackson will be alive by the time the team return back to 2016, thanks To Jax's interference o_O?

    It was interesting getting more insight into Mick's character and his past through meeting his younger self. It seems like part of the reason Mick has such a low opinion of himself and is so messed up, aside from his obsession with flames, is because he blamed himself for setting the fire that killed his parents. It also shows you how much he's changed or that he's undergone some character development that he forgives himself and tells his younger self to be a better man then his future self became :anime:.

    Rip's adopted mom was a fun character, and I could see how she would straighten him out into the more heroic and upstanding (relatively speaking) Time Master he would eventually become ;).

    I don't know what was funniest, young!Sara slapping young!Mick for hitting on her, Sara and Kendra gushing over a baby Captain Cold, Mick handing young!Mick baby Snart and telling him to keep his partner safe, or Stein being delivered in the back of a car before being whisked away by Rip and dubious doctor Mick :p.

    Anna Loring? Huh, so Ray was going to marry a Loring! Probably for the best that didn't work out given Identity Crisis, though maybe Anna wouldn't end up as crazy as Jean did. Though it did feel kinda weird seeing Kendra and Ray reaffirm their feelings and desire to marry each other and then making out while his past fiance is in another room across the hall. You'd think Ray would be a little more emotionally conflicted after seeing the woman he loved, whose death inspired him to become The Atom, in the flesh again :confused:.

    But now Kendra and Ray are engaged, so it seems like Kendra's putting her issues with Carter to rest and finally moving on, though I wonder if we're really done with the relationship drama between these two and if their nuptials will go off without a hitch? It would probably hurt Kendra's resolve if she ended up seeing Carter again before they can officially wed :shrug:.

    That scene of the Legends all frozen by the Pilgrim while attacking her was pretty cool, and nice twist seeing young!Rip just outright stab her to give the team the opening to annihilate her (this team definitely does not have a no-kill-rule) :cool:.

    Holy crud, is that giant, green, monster thing in the preview Chemo? Savage has frikkin' Chemo on his side :eek:!?
     
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  8. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    5 episodes remain. 5 weeks to see if Rayendra has the expected unhappy ending, and they call off the wedding.

    If they really want to tweak pop culture, why not get someone like Scott Bakula (NCIS: New Orleans) to do a guest shot so they can riff on Quantum Leap, or Meeno Peluce (ex-Voyagers!), who would've been perfect this week.

    So Mick has experienced an epiphany. Whod'athunk?

    Of course the ladies would gush over baby Len. Now if they can only figure out why the adult version tries too hard to sound like Eeyore crossed with Dennis Miller....! (Wentworth Miller's no relation to Dennis---or is he?)

    Given that Arthur Darvill had been on Doctor Who, maybe someone can get the license to use the classic theme for a byte?

    @Frontier: No, Michael "Rip" Hunter is not connected to Michael Jon "Booster Gold" Carter. They appeared together in Booster's last DC book.
     
  9. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    I seem to recall there was a twist where it turned out Booster, at least in the future, eventually fathered Rip, so I took that as a reference to it :).
     
  10. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    May have to look that one up.
     
  11. The Penguin

    The Penguin All Hail the King!
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    "Leviathan" April 28, 2016

    Meet the family! Tonight at 8 p.m. ET on The CW.

    [​IMG]
    "Leviathan"
    Thursday, April 28, 2016 @ 8 p.m. ET/7 CT on The CW
    Rip takes the team to London in the year 2166, three months before his family is killed.
     
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  12. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    Well, it wasn't Chemo after all that Ray ended up fighting. With the atomic logo on its chest, that rules out a future Mekanique. It was called Leviathan, for obvious reasons, but no one deigns to determine whether this was another of Savage's weapons created from some of Ray's tech.

    Looks like Rayendra is coming to an end. Carter returns, having been brainwashed, and Kendra inadvertently kills him, but can't bring herself to finish Savage. The latter I could see coming.

    Cassandra Savage? In the books, Vandal does have a daughter, Scandal, who was a member of the Secret Six at one time. Hmmm. Season ends before Flash & Arrow do. Apparently, Sara will find out about her sister's death in the season finale.....
     
  13. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    It was weird that they gave us a daughter of Vandal Savage, yet it wasn't Scandal, which was disappointing. I guess maybe Savage could have sired another daughter with another lover over the course of history, but I expect "Cassandra" is the only one the shows creative team intend to focus on :(.

    It was a great opportunity for not only a complex and interesting villain from the comics, but some great LGBT representation too. I was really hoping for a Sara/Scandal meeting because there was some amazing potential with that, but oh well :sad:.

    So Savage's secret weapon wasn't Chemo, but a giant, green, robot called Leviathan. It still feels like a reference to Chemo though. Or maybe to the Metal Men :)?

    Wow, Kendra looked great in that period dress, and it was funny seeing her give Carter a hard time for forgetting their anniversary. Now I totally want to see the pair's past lives in the Victorian era :cool:.

    So Hawkgirl finally has her mace, even if she had to take it from a dead Hawkman, and by pouring the bracelet onto it, I guess that now makes it an Nth Metal mace ;)?

    So Atom grows giant just a week before Civil War premiers. Take that Ant-Man :p.

    The highlights of the episode for me were giant-sized Atom fighting Leviathan and Hawkgirl bashing Savage with her new mace. I mean, you had Atom going all Ultraman on a deadly giant robot and punching it's head off, what's more awesome then that :D?

    How did Carter reincarnate without Kendra dying? I though they both needed to be killed by Savage before the reincarnation cycle restarted :confused:?

    Poor Ray. "We need to talk" is almost always the worst thing you can say to your fiance. Especially after meeting your reincarnated lover :ack:.

    I can understand how Kendra couldn't go through with killing Savage if it meant losing Carter, but it's definitely what Savage counted on by brainwashing and making Hawkman into one of his soldiers. And you can already tell in the preview that keeping him aboard the Waverider is going to backfire on the Legends. Kendra's probably the only real chance Carter has of remembering who he really is :eek:.
     
  14. Tohya

    Tohya deficit omne quod nasciture

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    I think everyone understands that more than anything, the reason she couldn't kill Savage is because we're in episode 13 of a 16 episode series and if it hadn't been Carter's face behind the helmet then the writers could of played off the fact that she wasn't ready to kill someone. It's a shame really, because all the Flarrowverse shows suffer from relying on these crucial character driven moments in what are largely plot driven shows. Unfortunately you cant have it both ways and I don't know about you but I'm sure a lot of us gave out a collective sigh when she didn't kill Savage. The show wants us to believe its because of this eternal undying love that Kendra and Hawk Bro share but since the show has done jack in developing that relationship its hardly convincing.

    I really can't wait for season 1 to end up so we can move on from Savage. It amazes me that, given the pedigree of the Berlanti team when it comes to their villains, how much of lame duck Vandal Savage ended up being. The Dark Archer, Slade Wilson, Wells/Thawn, Zoom, there was always this mystery and intrigue when it came to the flarrow villains. Savage has been none of these, and bless his heart, but Crump unfortunately doesn't posses the kind of hamminess required to pull off the Saturday Morning cartoon villainy I guess the writers were trying to go for here. But to be fair, it hasn't helped that Arthur Darvill hasn't been much a foil, since his RIp Hunter has been kind of a dud this season too. I don't know what it is, but nothing about this shows main dudes ever clicked. We're 13 episodes in and I really don't care whether Rip saves his family or not. Its literally whatever. Again, this universe has always done a great job of connecting us to its characters but with Rip, nothing. Ironically enough, Rip was probably the one who could of benefited from being less dramatic.

    This show has a lot of potential, and I look forward to seeing it they can improve on what did work this season and get less of what didn't next season.
     
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  15. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    Honestly, while I didn't go into the series having a very high opinion of him, I think Crump as Savage has really grown on me. He seems to have this interesting balance of regality from his long-livedness along with the creepiness of his true personality, and Crump does a good job of conveying that in my opinion :).

    I think I've actually grown to like Rip a lot more then I expected to. I was expecting a carefree, manipulative, sarcastic captain who constantly manipulates the Legends into helping him, and while the latter was true initially, I wasn't expecting he would end up being someone so heroic, driven, and compassionate to others in-spite of the selfish (but still ultimately heroic) goal he's set on and brought the Legends into. And I think Arthur Darvill has done a great job of conveying all those elements of Rip and making him into a compelling and interesting character (for me at least) :cool:.
     
  16. Tohya

    Tohya deficit omne quod nasciture

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    The thing is, from how the show has portrayed Savage, what we needed from Crump was a megalomaniac super villain with a taste for the ridiculousness. Savage is less of a character and more of just this force of evil who is only evil because the show needs us to hate him. It honestly feels as if the writers wrote Savage as this stock villain thinking Crump would elevate the material with this portrayal, but 13 episodes in, I can safely say Crump hasn't shown the kind of charisma required to pull off a villain who is doing villain things only because hes a villain. I'm not dumping on the guy, I think Crump has done his best with what amounts to crap but unlike the other villains in the Flarrowverse, I don't see Crump's Savage ever coming back. And while my opinion of Crump is pretty much the same from when I first saw him in the crossover, I can pretty much say with the outmost confidence that my opinion of Savage the character has dropped considerably. What a waste of one of DC's best villains.

    As for Rip, those aren't really his defining qualities though. You could characterize the entire team has heroic, driven and compassionate, and if anything he's probably the least compelling character on the team, next to Kendra and Hawk Bro (any power ranking would have Snart, Mickey, Sara, the national Treasure that is Victor Garber and Ray ahead of Rip). If anything, Rip's shtick this season can be summed up as him being a really porous leader, with his plans never really working out. I'm not saying hes a lame character, but his ineffectiveness as a foil to Crump's Savage is a lot of the reason why this show hasn't gotten nearly the same love or critical appeal as the other.two shows. Lets be honest, I don't think any of us would actually care if Legends was simply Mickey, Snart, Sara, Firestorm and Ray chilling with Gideon and going on adventures while fighting the time masters. The show doesn't need Rip or Savage to work, which is a problem since there beef is basically the crux of the show.
     
    #76 Tohya, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  17. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    Well, he's pretty much evil because he's completely selfish and petty and wants everything for himself. That's what started all this when he caught Chay-Ara with Khufu and murdered them out of jealousy. Now he's gone from that to wanting to continually kill the Hawks and make the entire world fall under him, from his cult, to that whole town, to Degaton's country, and now the world.

    I think Crump is probably a big reason, if not the only one, why I'm actually okay with Savage on the show. I don't think he's being used as effectively or written as well as he could be or in past interpretations of the character, but Crump's continuing performance has made him seem more entertaining to watch as he plays of the Legends and does his creepy immortal thing. But that's just me :).
    The very last thing I'd characterize Captain Cold and Heat Wave as is "heroic, driven and compassionate." Well, maybe driven when it comes to crime, themselves, their partnership, and killing dudes :sweat:.

    I always thought his shtick was the straight man to a big group of strong, conflicting, varied personalities who he has continually guide (however sometimes ineffectually) in their goal of stopping Savage and saving the timestream, providing a handy explanation for the do's and don'ts of time travel and someone for the whole team to bounce off of (as much as they all bounce off each other). I think his dynamic as a character and within the team is more part of his appeal then his conflict with Savage, though an appreciation for his character thanks to the former makes the latter seem more important to the show, I think. But that's just me ;).
    Well, I'd care if Mick and Snart are still around, because I want them back in Flash ASAP. We've really fallen behind on gathering The Rogues together, and we need the two of them back in the show for it to really happen :eek:.

    I think we can move on from Savage fairly easily, but I'd expect Rip to stay behind given he's effectively the lead and the Waverider is his ship. I'd certainly miss him if he were gone, since he feels like to me the glue that keeps the Legends focused to some degree and prevents them from going completely off-the-rails. Out of the entire cast, he feels like the only character who could conceivably jump from season to season with the rotating cast the showrunners intend for while still serving the same necessary role.
     
  18. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    DC retconned Rip as Booster's son in the books, as Frontier noted in reviewing the previous week's show. It makes no sense, but then, what do today's writers know, anyway. Rip came from the 22nd century in the show, but I think when Booster was introduced in the books in the 80's, he might've been from further along the timestream......
     
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  19. Road to Gotham

    Road to Gotham Well-Known Member

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    The Giant Atom-Robot fight was cool. As was the design of the robot.
    When I 1st saw it, I immediately thought of Mr. Atom. A Captain Marvel villain.
    1st Appearance CAPTAIN MARVEL ADVENTURES #78.
     
  20. hobbyfan

    hobbyfan Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, that makes more sense.

    A quick note on Rip, per his Wikipedia page. Originally, his given first name was Richard, per Rip's own book, which came out many moons ago. Set in the then-present, not the future. Anyway, the implausibility of Booster being his dad remains a sticking point if/when Booster does show up on the show.
     

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