Cowboy Bebop - The Fate of Spike Spiegel (SPOILERS!)

Discussion in 'The Anime Forum' started by Radical Raven, Mar 1, 2009.

  1. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Well, I re-watched Cowboy Bebop last night. And I ended up sad. Again. Mostly 'cause of the song. This is a fairly common subject, and I was wondering what TZ thought. Is Spike's death final? How would you feel if Shinchiro brought him back for a second series? What the hell does "It's all just a dream..." mean? (sorry, that last ones for me). Discuss!
     
  2. Mynd Hed

    Mynd Hed Holy blue on a popo!

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    First: I took the liberty of adding a spoiler warning to the thread title. I know it seems like everybody should have watched CB by now, but it is still conceivable that that there might be those who have not, so PLEASE, spare a little effort for those poor unfortunate souls.

    Second:

    Spike.

    Is.

    DEAD.

    Deal with it.
     
  3. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    I sense you've dealt with this before;)

    EDIT: I din't even think about a Spoiler tag. Thanks
     
    #3 Radical Raven, Mar 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2009
  4. EinBebop

    EinBebop Data Dog

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    Now, now, he could only be badly wounded! I hope you're never my doctor!
     
  5. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Actually, he can't be dead or badly wounded, 'cause he was never alive in the first place. Because, you know... cartoon.

    From an in-universe perspective... well, it's fiction. You can do anything you want with it.
     
  6. Mr. Anime

    Mr. Anime Active Member

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    Spike's definitely dead all right from my point of view. My belief is that Spike was unable to envision a future for himself, that the odd concoction of past and present has consumed him irrevocably. In a world where his love is dead and his closest comrade/friend has turned into nemesis, there really doesn't seem to be much left to do except fight said nemesis to death and then die himself.
     
  7. Yusuke Urameshi

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    Wow, spoiler tags NOW!



    anyhow, no, he won't come back.
     
  8. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    It was acceptable to bring Spike back for the movie, which took place before the end, but sometimes things end so well that you really don't need any more. The show explored all the characters, so to make more BeBop is to basically keep putting them in superfluous adventures.

    As for "It's all just a dream..." Well, there's the issue with Spike's eyes, but it goes deeper than that. I interpret the "dream" as being the time Spike spent aboard the Bebop. His encounters with Vicious and love for Julia, however, compel him to confront his past and to take on the syndicate at the end.

    Remember, Spike's plan was for him and Julia to escape the syndicate together, but that went wrong. Ironically, he ended up living his independent dream but without the one he wanted to share it with. So his comment to Faye that one eye sees the past whereas the other sees the present could be seen as a direct metaphor: his "dream" is the conflict between the free life he's living in the present and the past he couldn't let go of, which eventually caught up with him. Julia had the same issue. She was given a choice: kill Spike and live in the present, or love him and embrace the past that they had.

    The past and the present couldn't be in conflict forever. The end of the dream was the mutual decision of Spike and Julia to confront the past instead of trying to avoid it. Then Julia dies, which makes his choice absolute. He goes back to Bebop to basically say his final goodbyes before he settles things for good. He felt that he couldn't live free without killing Vicious and cutting his ties with the syndicate forever. Hence this final line to Faye: "I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive."

    Not that the message needs to be seen as absolute. Was this really Spike's inevitable tragic fate, or could he have chosen to forget the past? Should he have? Was Faye right in the end?

    Aaah, yeah. There's a good reason people still love Bebop.
     
  9. RockmanDash

    RockmanDash Retired

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    I think Spike should just remain dead. I mean come on guys that ending was really epic and it ended with a bang. Really bringing back Spike now would just ruin the ending's look to me.
     
  10. Grenzer

    Grenzer This is Kyokugen Karate... 2016 Style

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    I think GW answered this one as well as anyone could, but I'll add my own take on it as well.

    Spike is dead, there's really not much room to interpet it any other way. He had no reason to live after he killed Vicious. No matter how much he wants to stay with Jet and Faye on the Bebop, he realized his life was effectively over. He had been treading water for years, and at the end of the series he basically resolves all of the major issues in his life that had haunted him. Remember the story he tells Jet about the cat that died a 1000 times? The cat stays dead after he loses his love, because that's the only way he can truly find peace.

    I think the last scene in the series where Spike gives off his last "bang" was basically a sign that he was entering his own personal nirvana. I know it's bittersweet, but the whole symbolism behind the scene is actually far more optimistic then many other fans assume, since it's clear that Spike will find some sort of happiness in the afterlife. Laughing Bull heavily hints about this to Jet during their conversation in episode 25.
     
  11. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    That theory covers most of the bases pretty well (I've heard it before, and it' definitley one of the best); my problem with it arises from the fact that Spike does not seem, at any point to be running from his past. He runs towards it, in fact. Jupiter Jazz gave me the impression that he was searching for Julia during his time on the Bebop.

    Also, that theory seems to say that Spike was a tragic, tortured soul for every minute he spent on the Bebop; which is odd at least, since he didn't ever act tragic/tortured unless Julia was mentioned.

    And yeah, the fact that this subject is still brought up is an attestment to Bebop's greatness.
     
  12. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    That's true, but I think that highlights the tension between past and present, which was the intended main point. It's not that Spike was in perpetual turmoil, but rather that his ambition to live free was incomplete. He wanted Julia and he certainly wasn't running from that, but he also wanted to be free of the syndicate. Unfortunately, getting Julia back meant getting involved with the syndicate again. The recurring issues relating to Julia and Vicious established that sooner or later, a moment of truth would come and things would be settled one way or the other. Which is exactly what happened.

    Excellent thoughts, and good point there. I'd forgotten about what Laughing Bull had to say.
     
    #12 GWOtaku, Mar 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2009
  13. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Ugh. I started this thread for help with a Bebop story I was writing. I was trying to decide whether to bring Spike back or not. When no one answered right away, I went ahead and brought him back... then you all answered, and my perspective on the series has changed yet again. This has absolutely nothing to do with you, of course, I'm just voicing general annoyance.

    Anywho, I think you've hit it pretty well. I'd interpreted the Laughing Bull speech as impending death for Jet, but I didn't pay much attention to the last bit.
     
  14. Grenzer

    Grenzer This is Kyokugen Karate... 2016 Style

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    There still a lot of threads to resolve in the story even if Spike stays dead. Jet's strong paternal (AND maternal) instincts found an outlet in the ersatz family that assembled on the Bebop. Particularly after he sucessfully resolved the issues in his own life, he was already to forge ahead. That's gone now, and where can he go from there?

    Faye has been cheated out of her big chance to belong in a world where she is completely out of place. You can also argue she lost her only chance at love (if you suscribe to the theory she loves Spike). Does she sucumb to despair? Or can she pick herself up and find a new chance for happiness?

    And Ed? Do you think its safe for a young girl to travel across the blasted landscape of a devastated Earth? The Bebop gave her a chance for a shot of stability in her life that her biological father is unfortunately not capable of providing. You can already see how much she grew during her short time with the others, there's a serious danger she could lose that. I know she has Ein with her, but he's still a dog at the end of the day, he can't possibly fill that void. And the saddest thing is that Ed herself does not really understand that, which means she might just continue on the path of a vagrant childhood until reality strikes her hard.

    If you really are committed to writing a story about all this, then I wish you good luck. You have a lot of ground to cover with this one.
     
    #14 Grenzer, Mar 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  15. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Oh, I AM writing a story, with god and.... um, you guys... as my witness! (es). I'm just going to have to re-think some things, that all. Maybe I can do something with Laughing Bull's son...
     
  16. HellCat

    HellCat Lesser spotted Brit
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    I say you he dead!
     
  17. J!!!

    J!!! You're such a little kid~

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    I think he lived ............ he killed the bad guy and was just wounded the worse that could have happened was that he fainted.
     
  18. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Or they could do what the movie did and just show us events before Session 26...

    Superfluous adventures they may be, but actually, a lot of the Bebop episodes were superfluous, so I don't think I'd mind this too much. The only thing I'd be worried about when it comes to a CB continuation is a decline in quality. I'd hate for it to get, ya know.... tarnished, or whatever.
     
  19. MeggieMay

    MeggieMay Active Member

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    Well I've always felt there's room for another series based in the Bebop universe using some or all of the remaining characters from Cowboy Bebop (plenty of creative ways to do that in my view). That said, IMO Spike is best left dead. Actually I can think of ways to use Spike even though he is dead in a sequel that would, at least to me, be much better than trying to bring Spike back from the dead. The specter of Spike (his memory) is potentially as powerful as the living character was :cool: .
     
  20. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Exactly. If Wantanbe decided to make any kind of continuation, and it was succesful, we could end up with the worst rejuvenation since... well, I can't think of anything, but it'd be bad.

    Thing is, though (and I'm just going by a bunch of interviews), I don't think Wantanbe would let that happen. I hear a lot of Walt Disney in those interviews; clinically insane and in need of a new hobby, but dedicated to his art. If he does make a continuation, I think odds are it'll be good. And if he does'nt, it's probably the best decision.
     

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