Batman #608 - 619 "Hush" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by James Harvey, Oct 23, 2002.

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Rate and Comment on "Hush"

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  1. sKorpia

    sKorpia Sweet Little Owl

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    They couldn't have both used the same Lazarus pit since a pit is rendered powerless once its powers have been tapped . . . right? That means that either 2 pits were defiled or that Tommy Elliot did some massive reconstructive surgery on Harold. Although that doesn't account for him curing the muteness.

    Exactly how many Lazarus pits are there?

    I'm going to stick up for the cancer bit bringing Riddler and Tommy together. It opens the door to a partnership between them. It gives them something in common, a flicker of instant kinship because they've been touched by the same affliction (directly, indirectly, it doesn't matter). The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about it is Tommy's attitude towards his mother. If he really saw her as an obstacle to money, he shouldn't really care about her having cancer and then it can't serve as a mutual tie. Then again, all Riddler would have needed was a foot in the door and Tommy might've agreed to a meeting since the person who could cure cancer would end up being a very rich man. That, of course, depends on Tommy's motivation being purely monetary at first. And it roots their motivations into something that isn't exotic, which is what I like about it in the first place. World dominance, immortality, etc. are all well and good but there's something refreshing in glimpsing evils that we all can feel lurking within us or feel around us. Greed and revenge, selfishness and superiority. Old friends, eh?
     
  2. AF$

    AF$ FindTheScene

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    4 out of 5
    I really don't understand where all the complaining is coming from in regards to this story. Tommy Elliot had to be Hush, otherwise involving him in the story at all would have been pointless. Who would everyone rather wish Hush have been? Come on people, Loeb presented us with a story that kept us well entertained and guessing for a year, and some of you trash it like it is Dude, Where's My Car. Also, to those complaining about the Batman/Catwoman break-up, just wait, because I am sure it will be revisited. Fan reaction was pretty good to the union, so I can't imagine some writer, if not Loeb, won't go back to it. Batman had to break up with her, he couldn't be sure that she wasn't just another part of the game, so ever the detective, he had to let her go until he was sure. Also, for those saying the plot was too complicated for Tommy to come up with, the Riddler masterminded the plot, not Tommy. All Tommy did was set up the hatred for Bruce and use his finances and/or surgical skills to further the project. Cancer did not bring the Riddler and Tommy together. The Riddler knew Tommy was going to be loaded with cash and thought he could make a big score selling a cure for Mrs. Elliot's cancer, but he didn't count on the fact that Tommy wanted his mother dead. The only reason this whole thing started is that Tommy knew the Riddler was Gotham and started in with his hatred for Bruce Wayne. This story was way above average, and like any good story does, it left us with some wonderings (where is the body of Jason Todd, etc...), and I can't wait to see L&L's next run on this title.
     
  3. Homer

    Homer The bun is in your mind.

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    I want to know why Batman kept saying that Hush's voice is muffled by the bandages, when he clearly has a mouth opening.
     
  4. DerekPowers

    DerekPowers Ruler of Gotham City, 2049

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    i have to say, this final issue was alittle bit of a let down, especially since i was really starting to like where the story was going in the last few issues. but the 2 covers were awesome, just awesome.

    anyway, lots of things that werent clear, mainly who was the mastermind, riddler or tommy?? by the way, did anyone notice the bandage head never shows his face, it is never fully proven that hush was tommy eliot. and no body was recover. i think this isnt merely a coincidence.

    i just didnt like the story overall, and the explaination was just unclear and seemed alittle forced. why would tommy want to know about the lazerous pitts? a cure for cancer?? how about a cure for anything, which is what the lazerous pitts are. geez. it just seemed forced. and what could tommy do w/ the lazerous pitts? certainly not go up against ras al ghul. and how could the riddler have offered tommy the pitt when his mother was sick? didnt tommy's mother die when batman was training abroad, as it said in an earlier issue? so why would he want it now? it just didnt make sense.

    and tommy's motivation was just, ugh. when i read it i couldnt believe that was the explaination for all of this. a childhood promise? so, tommy is insane? because that's the only explaination for a kid who murders his parents (or attempts to kill them both) and then wants to kill bruce wayne because his father etc, etc, geez, talk about bad writing. so tommy's a lunatic.

    superman burns the device out of bruce's head? wouldnt that leave a hole in bruce's skull? :rolleyes:

    i still dont know why the riddler needed tommy or why tommy needed the riddler. if the riddler got "clarity" once in the pitt, then that was before hooking up w/ tommy. so he already knew batman's identity, so why the heck would he need tommy? tommy could have easily tried to kill bruce wayne, and had the opportunity to do so at many points in the arc. there just didnt seem to be a reason for either of them to work together or a realistic reason to make the story involve so many characters and plot twists. they were all pointless because the story was essentially, well, pointless.

    but i suppose the writing was bad from the start, i rmemeber alot of complaints about midway, before the jason todd thing, which seemed to re-kindle some interest in the arc. overall i give the story a 2 stars (out of 5), the art 5 stars, and overall i give it a 3, and thats ONLY because of the art.

    btw i also think it was a copout to get batman and catwoman so involved only to end it so abruptly with out any good reason except its convienient because the arc is over. oh well. peace.
     
  5. AF$

    AF$ FindTheScene

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    Here is pretty much what I got out of the whole Lazarus Pit, Riddler, Tommy combo. The Riddler at some point ran came into the knowledge of the Lazarus Pits, and was going to offer its services to Tommy to cure his mother. He was probably hoping Tommy would pay an obscene amount of money for the knowledge of these pits. However, Tommy did not want to cure his mother, and wished her dead so he could keep his inheritance. Here is why the two worked together and needed each other: The Riddler needs Tommy for two reasons, one - to do the dirty work as the Hush character, and two - because Tommy has loads of money to pay off people and has the surgical knowledge to offer cures and physical changes for people (ie, Two-Face, Harold, etc...). Tommy needs the Riddler because the Riddler is from Gotham, so he figures the Riddler must know Bruce Wayne (who he hates and wishes terrible things upon). It only works as a master plan because the Riddler knows Bruce is Batman, and because Tommy hates Bruce. Loeb wrote it all in the books people, go back and re-read the ending sequence.
     
  6. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

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    Wait if Harold could of been fixed by Tommy, why didn'y Bruce go to Tommy years ago if he aparantly was doing everything he could to help him.
    ________
    Suzuki Gsr600
     
    #386 Eddie G., Sep 28, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2011
  7. AF$

    AF$ FindTheScene

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    Harold didn't think of Tommy then because he didn't remember Tommy at that point. He only started remembering Tommy after Harold put the subliminal message machine in the computer.
     
  8. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

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    #388 Eddie G., Sep 28, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2011
  9. kid_flash

    kid_flash Speedy Teen

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    All right...let's do this thing...

    First, triple-gatefold heroes cover. Yes. It's a sweet cover and I got the heroes on purpose. But it's kinda annoying to read the comic with that there. Also enjoyed the triple-gatefold advertisement.

    Some nice reflections on Harold from Batman. I didn't read a lot from when Harold was actually in the Batbooks, so I don't know if this was ever really explored, but it really was quite well-done. I dig on Lee's Tim-Sale-esque flashback art, so that's a nice way to compliment what would usually just be captions.

    I'm really kinda surprised at how good a fight Hush puts up.

    Now, see...here's the problem. Tommy's dramatic change of character. Yeah, I know...he was like that the entire time, just covering it up. But all of a sudden, he wanted his parents dead. Huh-what?

    Here we go...Loeb's greatest contribution the modern Bat-myths...the resurrection of Harvey Dent. I LOVE Harvey and Two-Face both, enough to say it'd be cool to see where they take this. I'm a little wary, especially since Loeb basically makes the change and leaves 'em for someone else to deal with, but my attention is there.

    "I heard Thomas Elliot is dead AGAIN." I live for lines like that.

    And I know Superman shows up to fix Batman's brain, but he's really just there so Batman can explain how he figured everything else. And I'm gonna say it again...I really hate Jim Lee's Superman.

    And here's the thing that almost completely redeems Loeb. The Riddler scene. No one's ever done a really big, great Riddler story. This is it. It always made sense that, somehow, the Riddler would figure out the secret. It's about time someone did it. And Jim Lee's Riddler is one of the few characters he does perfectly.

    Overall...a pretty good ending to a bad story. This story always seemed too big, but it was nice to watch it be brought down and have a really small finish. Usually with these things, there's some huge finish that's far too big for its own good. This was a nice, Batman ending.

    But, with the exception of Harvey Dent, nothing happened in this story. Batman and Catwoman still just kinda trust each other. The Joker's still around. Et cetera. Yeah, you could lump the Riddler discovering Batman's secret into this, but it's pretty obvious he's not gonna do anything with it. Yeah, Harold died, but did anyone really notice he was gone until last month? And the big villain of it all was a guy we've never seen before.

    So this whole thing has left me with a very undecided position on this story. We'll see where the Batman mythos go from here. Basically...bring on Azzarello and Risso.
     
  10. ClockStomper

    ClockStomper One who loves naked Kagome

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    You know, if Harvey really wnated to help out Bats, he could have blown the Joker's brains out. Harvey and Bats will still remain enemies, but this time Harvey is killing baddies instead of commiting "2" related crime.
     
  11. Borg4of3

    Borg4of3 Slish Slash Slosh!

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    A slightly off topic question - where was Batgirl III, Cassie, during all this? I thought I was following the comics pretty closely, but I must've completely missed the story where she 'disappears'.
     
  12. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    After the next six issue arc, Loeb's back to do another six-issue arc, so I wouldn't be surprised if he picks up on this idea. I personally think it's a great idea, but we all know the writers will inevitably turn him back into Two-Face somehow. It's only a matter of time. Should make for some good stories.

    -Tim
     
  13. Clayface

    Clayface Molecularly Malleable Mod

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    Actually, the last I had heard, the second Loeb/Lee arc (the six-issue follow-up arc) had been delayed since both Loeb and Lee had taken on other commitments. From what I remember, the Loeb/Lee six-issue arc is not scheduled to immediately follow the six-issue Azzarello/Risso run.
     
  14. Sisto Kid

    Sisto Kid Cutting worthless objects

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    Let's face it guys, no matter HOW the "Hush" story line ended, SOMEBODY was gonna walk away dissapointed. :rolleyes:

    I personally liked the way #619 wrapped things up, (kinda) and I prefer to leave it at that. :p

    Maybe this is slightly off-topic, but the thing I dig is, and this is true for not only the "Hush" storyline, but also the recent Bats/Supes crossover, is that I like the way Jeph Loeb treats Superman and Batman with equal respect.

    It seems to me that almost every writer in the Post-Crisis, Post-Dark Knight Returns DC universe, when they put Superman and Batman together makes out Batman to be the all-seeing, all-knowing wise man and Superman as a dumb-as-a-post boy-scout Kansas farmboy who, if he didn't have his powers, would be as useful as kudzu.
    (Thanks a lot, Frank Miller. :mad: )



    I return you now to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. :D
     
    #394 Sisto Kid, Sep 29, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2003
  15. SolidLiquidFox

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    I still see this a missed opportunity of sorts.

    The whole Tommy Elliot revenge/grudge scheme is pushing it a bit and kind of lame.

    Again, Tommy put too good of a fight there at the end. I refuse to believe that it was him playing Hush.

    Let's see, who has witnessed Batman being hit by a bunch of villains from his rogue gallery and have the wits to improve on it by adding the whole Tommy Elliot and Hush angle? Azrael saw Bane try it during Knightfall but improved on it. He has to be the Hush on the heroes (allies) cover. Not Harvey Dent.

    Again, it can't be Tommy underneath those bandages. It just can't.
     
  16. AF$

    AF$ FindTheScene

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    I see people still want to hang onto this whole Azrael thing...
     
  17. DerekPowers

    DerekPowers Ruler of Gotham City, 2049

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    my question is how was any reader suppose to figure this mystery out?? it made no sense, and was so random that they could have written anything, how could u have predicted the outcome??

    i really do chalk it up to bad writing. i was a huge loeb fan when it came to his previous bat books, but this really was a let down in terms of writing and story. the art actually makes up for it, imho, but still, i think loeb could have done a better job.

    its too bad too, because the idea of the riddler solving the ultimate riddle, who is batman, is a cool one, but this whole "hush" story had nothing to do with the riddler, had nothing to do with the riddler solving that riddle, it really didnt reflect anything you'd think would come along with such a story. the motivations and connections between tommy eliot and the riddler was just all confussing and unconvicing, it just didnt make much sense and seemed like a stretch. why even involve tommy eliot?? why didnt loeb just make this a real riddler story? i just didnt get this story line, and found it very weak. imagine if lee's art wasnt attatched to it, it would have flopped. like i said, lee's art does redeem it, its that good, but still, the story is a stinker.
     
  18. Samhaine

    Samhaine Time To Relax

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    Well, I figured that I might add my thoughts here. Been a while since I peaked in the Batman talkback, but that's because I get tired of repeating myself while hearing that this is the best Batman has been for a long time.

    Glad to see I'm not alone anymore.

    Needless to say, I wasn't a fan of this issue. I saw the Riddler and banged my head against the desk. I heard Tommy's explanation and banged my head against the desk. I finished the scene with Batman and Superman and I....do I need to continue??

    How can this be the same writer who wrote LH and DV? "He cut my line." I mean, come on now. And the ending - what was that? I was hoping that we wouldn't be thrown into the Clayface explanations - that maybe there was something a little more clever. Nope. Clayface doing impersonations. Sigh.

    I'm glad we're getting 100 Batman next issue. I'm ready for the BATMAN title to be good again, if just for 6 issues (I fear for GK at 50, same for 'Tec after Brubaker gets kicked. And to think, at one time we had Rucka, Brubaker, and Grayson on the main books. So long, good times.).
     
  19. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    Yeah, those were great times a few years ago. I loved nearly anything any of those three touched. At least Rucka's still around doing GOTHAM CENTRAL, Grayson is doing Grayson...erm...NIGHTWING :D, and Brubaker is tag-teaming GOTHAM CENTRAL, CATWOMAN, and DETECTIVE.

    Where did you hear that Brubaker is leaving 'TEC? This is the first I've even heard it suggested and I hope to God you're wrong. :shrug:

    -Tim
     
  20. Samhaine

    Samhaine Time To Relax

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    I forget where, probably Newsarama. But yeah, he's not leaving, per se, but being kind of pushed out the door. It was really surreal when I had read the article (similar to the one I just read about a new GK writer - when did they announce Beatty leaving?). I don't know if Brubaker has another arc or not, but I know he doesn't have much time left on the book. Shame, too. He's one of my favorite writers (go read Deadenders!!!)
     

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