"Arrow" Season Six Talkback (Spoilers)

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hobbyfan

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#42
A house divided does not stand. Splitting up the team will not end well, and when is Thea going to finally put on her big girl pants and suit up again?

Cayden James bores me. Period. I believe Vigilante will eventually turn on him and make a heroic sacrifice. Seems as though they're teasing that Huntress will return after too long away after her father gets whacked.
 

Fone Bone

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#43
Arrow "Divided"

That was better than average for this season, but that doesn't mean I liked it.

Let's start off with Oliver's laughable "clean slate" proposal. The proposal was so insulting because it basically said that Oliver would not have to acknowledge or work to earn back their trust. Oliver thinks he's doing them a favor. In reality, he is denying his culpability.

For the record, I get why Oliver doesn't trust Rene or Dinah. But the fact that he lumps Curtis in with them shows that, in reality, he has none of their backs, and never did.

Speaking of Dinah, I would be less upset at her rage for Vincent's betrayal if she hadn't bothered forgiving him in the first place. He is a known terrorist and first degree mass murderer. All (or most) of Oliver's kills have been in the heat of battle. Vigilante's victims were all premeditated. And suddenly, he scares some criminals into confessing and he's forgiven for mass murders? The reason I do not take the morality of superhero comics, movies, and TV shows seriously is because that morality does not exist. There should be clear lines about this sort of thing, but I don't know why I'm supposed to loathe the Joker for his premeditated murders and cheer the Punisher's and Vigilante's. The reason these comic book franchises traffic in immoral ideas is because sometimes the reader likes a villain, and the comic book company turns them into an antihero to give them their own book. But we are just supposed to arbitrarily forgive and / or forget their previous crimes, even though they were almost never punished for them. I keep hearing from idiots like Geoff Johns that comic books are grand mythic fables in the tradition of Shakespeare. That's crap. Because at least Shakespeare allowed his immoral characters to stand on their own merits. He didn't create a second play for Macbeth to revive the character back to life once the first play proved popular, and make him a hero because of it. The morality of Greek myths and Shakespeare, even if it is very different from morality that you or I recognize, still exists. Macbeth still dies for being such a weak-willed bastard. He doesn't get a bunch of sequel plays where he's the hero.

And that's what I despise about this show and the Arrowverse, and all superheroes in general. Nobody who claims the mantle of superhero ever has to truly pay for their sins, even if that sin includes murder and covering up murder. And I'm supposed to simply be okay with that.

For the record, The Buffyverse sucks in hindsight too, and for precisely this reason.

Vigilante claims he's still against criminals because vigilantes are criminals. Anyone else find that reason specious? I mean, he is teamed up with ACTUAL criminals, and he apparently joined the team before the anti-vigilante act passed. Whatever his reasons, he cannot claim the high ground by citing that.

Rick Gonzalez is NOT a handsome man, so his puppy dog face isn't actually adorable. But it IS funny. I'll give him that.

I wanted to shake Thea awake for saying Malcolm changed. No he didn't! He rewrote reality into a world in which every super hero was murdered by him and his friends! It galls me that no-one will ever know this sin. Because if there is ONE person in the Arrowverse who does not deserve redemption, it is Malcolm Merlyn. Not after that.

And since she says this without knowing the actual facts, that tells me her advice to Quentin about reaching out to Laurel is terrible, and will end badly for everyone involved. Even when Thea is trying to do the right thing, I don't think she can do anything but say and do things that invite future disaster. Defining character trait for Speedy there. I think Quentin trying to reform Laurel is probably going to bite them all in the ass.

The episode made no sense about something. Why would Caden James fall for the theater in the Arrowcave, if he knew the bugs had been discovered? They obviously were putting on a fake performance for him. Why didn't he point that out immediately? Bad writing is why.

Bertinelli gets a bullet in his head but his supposed reward for doing the right thing is James saying they weren't going to kill his college going daughter. Did I forget to thank Felicity Smoak for freeing this d-bag in the first place? I'll have to get back to you on that.

Technically a good episode, but also one that I could find a millions things to rant against. ***1/2.
 

Dudley

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#44
If there’s one thing I can always expect from the Arrowverse is for characters to do something stupid to move the plot along. The villains will let the heroes live so they can be thwarted in the future, and heroes will hurt their friends to cause distrust, for the sake of drama.
It’s really dumb.


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hobbyfan

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#45
This is because Cayden James is not an interesting enough big bad to carry the entire season. An unassuming, bereaved father-turned-deranged lunatic whose entire agenda remains partially unrevealed? Sorry, I've had my fill of that.
 

Dudley

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#46
This is because Cayden James is not an interesting enough big bad to carry the entire season. An unassuming, bereaved father-turned-deranged lunatic whose entire agenda remains partially unrevealed? Sorry, I've had my fill of that.
Who’s he the father too? I forgot.

You know what’s sad? Even forming his own team of villains isn’t making him interesting.


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The Penguin

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#48
T-minsus 4 minutes to Arrow! Tonight at 9 p.m. ET on The CW.

"We Fall"
Thursday, January 25, 2018 @ 9 p.m. ET/8 CT on The CW
Cayden James ups the ante by launching his plan to take control of every aspect of the city.
 

hobbyfan

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#49
Ok, I said last week that Vigilante would turn on James. The first steps were taken tonight.

So James' plot is all about protracted revenge for his son's accidental death at Ollie's hands. Whoooopee. Been there, seen that enough times. Lame. Wake up and smell reality!
 

Otaku-sempai

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#50
So James' plot is all about protracted revenge for his son's accidental death at Ollie's hands. Whoooopee. Been there, seen that enough times. Lame. Wake up and smell reality!
The question is: who sent the fake evidence against Ollie and how has James not realized that it is manufactured?

I'll admit that I like Vig as a hero better than as a villain and I'm getting tired of this trend of taking heroes and turning them into enemies. A little bit of that goes a long way.
 
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Fone Bone

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#51
Arrow "We Fall"

My feelings for this episode were identical for this week's Flash: "Good enough." I am not a snob or hard to please. It wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed myself, and that's good enough for me.

Interesting that William doesn't correct the bullies on the bus that Felicity is not his mother. That would be the first instinct of kids whose mothers died recently. But Felicity is a special kind of amazing. I kind of wished she was my mom by the end of her speech.

For the record, I found it a little hard to believe that William is mad at Oliver for lying to him for weeks, and nobody points out Felicity did the exact same thing. Yes, she was directed to do so by him, but she has never been one to ALWAYS do what Oliver says, especially if it's a bad idea like that one. Oliver was not the only one who betrayed William's trust, and it is weird to me the show AND William are giving her a free pass, as if she is blameless. She's not. She's amazing, but she's not blameless.

I'm betting part of the reason William changed his mind about Oliver being Green Arrow is because he himself ran into danger to save his classmates on the bus, even the d-bag who was hassling him. I think maybe he's not just cool with it now because Oliver seems unkillable on footage Felicity regrets he watched (hilarious scene by the way). Maybe it's because after he saved the kids on the bus, he realized what drove his father to do that. Because he has the exact same urge to save and protect people ingrained into him. And maybe the first time he realized it was that crisis.

And as he noted, because of Felicity, if something happens to Oliver, he's not an orphan. Maybe that wouldn't have been his perspective a few weeks ago, but now it is.

I love Felicity stating she fell in love with Oliver the second she met him. Honestly? Rewatch their first scene. It's clear he did too. Their meeting was actually the first time on the entire series Oliver actually smiled and enjoyed a moment. It was because of that moment that I instantly knew the Laurel 'ship was ill-advised. He and Laurel never had anything CLOSE to that, even once, and if the show is asking me to root for two people who clearly hate each other, they're crazy. It's the fact that Oliver and Felicity like each other which is why they are the correct 'ship and always were. I hated having to go through the motions of pretending a drunken, narcissistic sociopath like Laurel Lance was worthy of Oliver Queen, especially since she did nothing but publicly rag on and embarrass him for things that weren't his fault. I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore.

Thank God for the revelation that Vigilante was a double-agent. Because him joining Team Cayden made no sense whatsoever, just based upon possible motivations. My question is why didn't Cayden see that coming? It never occurred to him that the criminal punisher might only be pretending to be okay to work with criminals? Cayden is not as smart as advertised.

Benjamin Gale. I see what they did there.

My one regret about Vigilante saving Rene is that it outed him too soon. Now his entire mission is basically a wash, and Team Arrow AND The Outsiders are down a very valuable weapon and source of intel. I think they should try turning somebody else. I would go for Anatoly. The new team makes this idea perfect. They can commiserate with Anatoly that Oliver a liar and a punk, who has basically disappointed anyone who has ever put their faith and trust in him, while also pointing out that Cayden's revenge isn't just about Oliver. Hundreds, possibly thousands, of innocent people will die. Anatoly claimed earlier in the season that he was a good man. Let's see the Outsiders make him prove it.

Oliver's speech on the news sort of reminds me why he has a ridiculously high approval rating, despite being under criminal investigation. He is REALLY good at the politics aspect of his job.

I guessed Oliver was innocent of killing Cayden's son, just because Oliver is usually good enough at his job that any civilians that die around him, are almost never at his own hands. He's had a couple of accidents (notably caused last season by Prometheus) but Oliver would be worthless if he went around accidentally putting arrows into the wrong people. And this again makes me think much less of James' intelligence. He didn't bother to try and verify that Oliver wasn't actually in Star City that night? Because Oliver's alibi is actually iron-clad if James would bother to listen. The fact that he's willing to blow up the entire city without doing due diligence in investigating why he should do that, shows that he is NOT very smart, and Team Arrow will beat him because of that fact.

Enjoyable episode. No real complaints, or at least no complaints enough to knock down the grade. ****.
 

hobbyfan

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#52
The question is: who sent the fake evidence against Ollie and how has James not realized that it is manufactured?

I'll admit that I like Vig as a hero better than as a villain and I'm getting tired of this trend of taking heroes and turning them into enemies. A little bit of that goes a long way.
1. I think there might be another player in this drama that will be brought forth before the end of the season. Shows how poorly structured this arc is. That player could very well be Nyssa al Ghul, as reports are that Katrina Law will return later this season as Nyssa.

2. Vigilante was meant to be a hero all along, but the morons running this show decided to make him a bad guy just because. Remember, Crazy Guggenheim writes for Marvel and doesn't do enough due diligence in researching DC characters.
 

hobbyfan

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#55
How unoriginal.

10 days ago, on Supergirl, Livewire was killed off, dying a hero's death. So what happens? Crazy Guggenheim and his scribbling idiots copy that plot point to kill off Vigilante. Now, we get Dinah vs. Laurel to the death next week.

This is why genre shows like this should not have soap opera elements.

Let me reiterate what I said last season, because it bears repeating. In a 20 episode season, the best move is to have 4 story arcs of 4-5 episodes each, with one minor plot point threaded across until it becomes the central plot of the final arc of the season. The CW was built on shows with soap opera elements because until Arrow came along, it was content with being a network that catered to women 18-49. It had only been a year after Smallville had ended its run when Arrow bowed, but now we're seeing several reasons why there've been creative problems with the Berlantiverse.

So who would betray Cayden James next? Laurel or Anatoly?
 

Fone Bone

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#56
Arrow "All For Nothing"

My perspective during this week's episode of The Flash was, "Okay, there are a few plotholes going on here.". But I decided to shut my brain off and enjoy it anyways. This episode of Arrow is such a plot mess, that I literally cannot do that. It would be internet critic malpractice not to pick every single nit and bash the writers unmercifully. I will acknowledge this perspective is usually the domain of actual trolls. But damn, Arrow just gave me a ton of easy fire. I'd be nuts not to fire back.

First off, Vigilante is not dead. Period. His entire power involves healing from wounds. Everybody gave him up for dead almost immediately. EMT nurses often perform CPR on patients for several minutes if need be. People have come back after 20 minutes. Nobody gives up on CPR in real life as quickly as they always do on TV. But the human body is funny. And that's the normal human body. A guy whose superpower is healing? What, did they just leave him there? My gripe is that he isn't actually dead. He'll come back in season 7 with a grudge against Dinah for "How could you leave me there? Without checking to see that I was alive first?" It's all so freaking predictable, and old, and we've seen it a million times before.

Doesn't it make sense that if the wound is small, it heals quickly? But if the wound is major, it takes longer? That strikes me as a logical guess for how the superpower works. Why has nobody else guessed that? Dumb.

Second huge nit. I don't like what they doing with Quentin. I think the guy has been punished enough. But they are repeatedly stomping on that guy's heart for the sole reason that Paul Blackthorne can bring it. That is an utter mistake, and I think it's something also done by the creators of Spider-Man, so at least the Arrow writers are in good company. But the writers of Spider-Man decided to make Spider-Man "interesting" by giving him so many personal problems. His love life, his money situation, always being framed for crime, his aunt always being in the hospital, being bullied at work and in school. The thinking was that Spider-Man is relatable because he has problems regular people have.

Except nobody has THAT many problems. At least not all at once, and not in a river of unending torment. I do not recognize my problems in Peter Parker's. What I recognize instead is hackneyed writing trying to disguise that fact that the writer in question usually wasn't able to make Peter out of costume interesting on his own. And that's bullcrap. And that's Quentin tonight.

He's suffering, but in no real-world way anyone else would ever have to suffer. I do not recognize Quentin's actual pain as resembling a real person's. The real reason Quentin gets his heart stomped on repeatedly is that the writers and producers believe (correctly, I might add) that Blackthorne actually deserves an Emmy nomination for his performance. So they keep piling it on, and I suspect they are going to keep piling it on until it happens. But because Arrow's a superhero show, it never will. But what is good for Blackthorne's Emmy reel is bad for the actual show. It is legitimately badly written at this point. By making Blackthorne look good, the show is making itself look bad.

Third nit: Vigilante was still undercover in the first place? See, after killing that guy last week, it seemed to me his cover was blown, and James would never believe any innocent explanation. If The Outsiders and Vigilante were actually smart, they'd never let him into the lion's den again after that.

Fourth nit: Cayden leaves Dinah alive. Is he crazy? He just killed the love of her life in front of her, and she has powerful superpowers and is now lethally gunning for him. She was trapped under a rafter. James couldn't put a bullet in her head to tie up that loose end? James is not as smart as advertised if he just lets her walk after that.

Speculation: I think Anatoly is James' second mole. Just because with the torture and the Sophie's Choice he offered tonight, his protestations of being an honorable man earlier in the season are hollow. What I think happened is Anatoly killed James' son to frame Oliver for it, knowing how James would react, and the entire city got caught up in the crossfire. I don't ultimately know where Anatoly will side by the end of the season. If I'm right, he might go to Team Arrow for protection if Cayden learns the truth. But it seems increasingly likely to me that whether he kills James and takes over as the Big Bad, or makes a reluctant ally with Oliver, I am pretty sure what is happening is 100% his fault. That's my theory, and I'm sticking with it.

Does it strikes anyone else that some Undercover Officers having photos of themselves in police get-up out there is a really bad and dangerous idea? Is that real? Because that strikes me as a REAL flaw in the entire premise of undercover work. If that is from real life, I think real life and the public's safety is in a much more precarious predicament than we had ever been led to believe. If that's this show just being stupid, that's pretty much the fifth major nit.

Sixth nit: Nobody on the Outsiders bothered to give Team Arrow the Heads Up that Vigilante was a mole? Are they so petty and pissed at Oliver that they'd keep that information from him just because? Because the line Curtis used tonight is "We were going to tell you. Eventually." "Eventually"? Really? That specific information kind of information not being shared is how people get killed. If Oliver had been aware of it earlier, he might have even been better able to do a proper risk assessment for the mission, and decided on a different plan if it was too dangerous. But since Oliver is completely out of the loop, and it's day 8 of the city being held hostage, he doesn't really have any back-up options.

Keep in this mind: This was Day 8 of the hostage situation. The Outsiders kept this vital information from Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity for over a week. I'm sure Oliver should have waited with the same bated breath for the Outsiders to share that info that I was waiting for the Michelle Obama "Whitey tape". The only reason Oliver found out is because the Outsiders were caught. It is to Oliver's unending credit that he didn't just go ballistic at the lot of them for the "Eventually" thing, and blame Vincent's death entirely on Dinah at the end. Because he'd be right to. Everybody on The Outsiders hates Oliver for being unfair. But he was far fairer to them all tonight than any sane person would be. What bothers me is nobody points this out after the fact, to give Oliver the credit he so richly deserves for his cool head and diplomacy. The Outsiders still hate him after he forgave THEM for endangering the city and the mission for a petty reason. This is normally the kind of thing Felicity Smoak points out to Curtis, and the fact that the writers didn't think to do that, while giving Quentin an entire plot where he does nothing but blubber, tells me they are trading good drama for bad drama. And that sucks, and is the worst thing a drama can do.

The Outsiders aren't taking this seriously. They think it's a game of dress-up. And THAT'S the reason Vince died. No other.

I like to shut off my brain when I watch The Arrowverse. But it often defies logic so brazenly that it can't help but be switched back on. I suspect I would enjoy Arrow a lot more if I were stupider. **.
 
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Otaku-sempai

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#57
It doesn't bother me that Cayden James was still unaware at the beginning of the episode that Vigilante was a mole; Vig was careful not be be seen by anyone else on Jame's team when he took out the henchman last week. And after presumably having his brain reduced to jelly, Vigilante might actually be dead. On the other hand, there are certainly other comic-book characters with similar abilities who could heal from this. And, yes, James should have killed Dinah while she was pinned. But remember that he doesn't like to get his hands dirty in such a personal manner.
 

hobbyfan

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#60
The body can heal from external injuries, but what about internal injuries? What if Vince's brain can't function to the point where his healing factor can't kick in again? James knew Vince would heal from anything like a bullet wound, and that's why he had Laurel scream into Vig's ears.

Either way, it is still stupid, lazy writing.
 

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