Attention GundamW haters can I have your attention?

[I.R Joey]

I've heard some people complain about how much they hated GundamW and I would like to know why? It's not an insult it's just that I like the series alot, and felt that it was pretty much seemless.

BTW I haven't see the other Gundams so maybe that's a factor.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

That's me, that's me!

Okay, I don't hate the show. By itself, it's not bad. But I think it lacks the character depth of the other Gundam series. The characters lack any kind of common sense (they're suicidal, but no reason is given for sufficient motivation to BE that suicidal), they're kind of generic, and the plot is overly complicated but at the same time quite pointless. The relationships do not develop. They pretty much stay the same. There is no conclusion to the relationship started between Heero and Relena. It just kinda wanders off and leaves it at that.

[Kylewayne]

I agree with the above....

[Lachesis]

It bored me. I'll admit I'm not too fond of the mecha genre, but Gundam W really just bored me. It was nice to see the wars and the alliances portrayed seriously, but the characters were much too shallow to sustain the plot. I didn't CARE when Heero blew 01 to heck. I didn't CARE when he was that close to executing Duo. My favorite characters in the show were Lady Une and Zechs for bloody heck's sake!

I here Gundam X is much better. . .

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Lachesis
It bored me. I'll admit I'm not too fond of the mecha genre, but Gundam W really just bored me. It was nice to see the wars and the alliances portrayed seriously, but the characters were much too shallow to sustain the plot. I didn't CARE when Heero blew 01 to heck. I didn't CARE when he was that close to executing Duo. My favorite characters in the show were Lady Une and Zechs for bloody heck's sake!

I here Gundam X is much better. . .

Gundam nerd here again--

I thought Gundam X was a good idea, but a poor execution. In my opinion, the best Gundams were the ones directed by the original creator, Yoshiyuki Tomino. He's not fond of the mecha genre, so his characters tended to stand out more. Z Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam, V Gundam and Turn A Gundam are the Gundams he helmed.

The best non-Tomino Gundam is Gundam 0080--CN should air this quite soon, near the end of Mobile Suit Gundam, which is the time 0080 takes place in.

The upcoming 08Th MS Team (airing Monday) is notable for its handling of the romance element--most fans regard it as the most "romantic" of all Gundam series, as far as romance and war goes.

[Clayface]

Well, I enjoyed Gundam Wing. Granted, I haven't seen the other series yet, so I may be coming from a different viewpoint, but here's a few comments on my opinions.

Originally posted by Leap Larry Jojo
Okay, I don't hate the show. By itself, it's not bad. But I think it lacks the character depth of the other Gundam series.

Could be - like I said, I've not seen the other series. But, I thought the characters in this GW were developed pretty well.

The characters lack any kind of common sense (they're suicidal, but no reason is given for sufficient motivation to BE that suicidal),

This I don't agree with. I thought it made sense that they were suicidal - that's the way they were raised! Its like the kids you see in some of the more unsavory third world countries - you see these little kids with rifles hung over their shoulders - ready to die because that's what they were raised to believe. That's the only life they know. That's how I see the Gundam pilots, and this idea was expanded upon in the comics.

they're kind of generic, and the plot is overly complicated but at the same time quite pointless.

Well, not quite sure how to answer that. I dind't find the plot overly complicated. I also didn't find it pointless.

The relationships do not develop. They pretty much stay the same. There is no conclusion to the relationship started between Heero and Relena. It just kinda wanders off and leaves it at that.

Actually, I liked that they left the Heero/Relena relationship open like that. They're two very different people, yet very similar, and its difficult to determine how their relationship would end up. I would have been rather disappointed if they just ended up hooking up, and it would have been a bummer if they completely cut off any chance of them ever getting together. Like I said, I like how it was handled.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Clayface



Could be - like I said, I've not seen the other series. But, I thought the characters in this GW were developed pretty well.




ME: Do we ever see eye-to-eye, Clayface?

About the characters--they were easy to pigeon-hole. Here's the arrogant, sexist guy, here's the quiet one, and here's Mr. Mysterious, etc,. And Relena was more like a symbol than a real person. She was all for pacifism, but many of her characteristics seemed rather...weak. I didn't buy her as a symbol of pacifism.

[/b]


This I don't agree with. I thought it made sense that they were suicidal - that's the way they were raised! Its like the kids you see in some of the more unsavory third world countries - you see these little kids with rifles hung over their shoulders - ready to die because that's what they were raised to believe. That's the only life they know. That's how I see the Gundam pilots, and this idea was expanded upon in the comics.


ME: The problem was this: in most of the situations, an easier, more obviously logical solution was almost right under their noses. It seemed as if their suicidal threats were used more for melodrama rather than "realism." Maybe they were just stupid kids. I'd buy that. But then, I was never one for stupid kids. Or they were deluded terrorists, which they were, to an extent. But that doesn't make it entertaining.

[/b]


Well, not quite sure how to answer that. I dind't find the plot overly complicated. I also didn't find it pointless.


Much time was wasted on pompous monologues and posing. Can you sum up the whole series' plot for me? Besides saying, "It's about two warring factions with mecha?" Can you explain the true gist of the last 8 episodes?



Actually, I liked that they left the Heero/Relena relationship open like that. They're two very different people, yet very similar, and its difficult to determine how their relationship would end up. I would have been rather disappointed if they just ended up hooking up, and it would have been a bummer if they completely cut off any chance of them ever getting together. Like I said, I like how it was handled. [/B]

The thing was this: they never had much to begin with. There was this flirting thing going, but I never felt that the writers ever had a plan for them, bad or not. I never took their so-called "relationship" seriously. This was almost as bad as the millions of anime series where the writers "tease" a connection between a male and female, but don't know what they want to accomplish with it. It felt very shallow to me. What the writers tried to do with Heero and Relena was what Cowboy Bebop SUCCESSFULLY did with Faye and Spike. It wasn't silly "sexual" tension like "Hey Heero, come and kill me!" Also, I read an interview with the director of GWing in Animerica and he said that he was uncomfortable with handling relationships (being more of a director of "macho" shows), so he tried to avoid it. The Heero/Relena thing and all the rest of that stuff was done mainly to draw viewers.


At least the Heero/Relena relationship wasn't as bad as the one in Gundam 0083, though. Talk about grown-ups acting like 12 year olds...

As an aside, you probably wouldn't like 08TH MS Team in this case, since the romance element is more prominent and clear-cut. But after zillions of awkwardly handled romances and "cop-outs" in anime, I felt 08th MS Team was a change of pace with characters who I could actually believe could handle a relationship. In anime, there are TONS of geek boys who go with pretty girls--or rather, avoid committing to pretty girls. And they put it off. And off. And off. (See Tenchi, Ah my Goddess, Ranma, etc,.) Or, you get Evangelion or Gundam Wing, where lead characters were so self-absorbed they couldn't ever get a date in their life. So it was refreshing to get a character who wasn't

A: A wishy-washy geek and B: Selfish or crazy.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Leap Larry Jojo

ME: Do we ever see eye-to-eye, Clayface?

No. But that's what makes conversation with you fun.

About the characters--they were easy to pigeon-hole. Here's the arrogant, sexist guy, here's the quiet one, and here's Mr. Mysterious, etc,. And Relena was more like a symbol than a real person. She was all for pacifism, but many of her characteristics seemed rather...weak. I didn't buy her as a symbol of pacifism.

Fair enough. I do agree that some of the characters fall into that typical cliche, but I'm so used to that sort of thing in anime that it doesn't bother much anymore.

Define what you mean by her "weak" characteristics.

Or they were deluded terrorists, which they were, to an extent. But that doesn't make it entertaining.

Hey, speak for yourself! I find deluded terrorists pretty dang entertaining!

Much time was wasted on pompous monologues and posing.

Eh. Again, something that I'm so used to in anime that it doesn't bother me. I'd rather have the monologues than the whiney "(fill in generic monster name here) Attack!" crap we get so much of.

Can you sum up the whole series' plot for me? Besides saying, "It's about two warring factions with mecha?"

Why isn't that a good enough description? The fact that it can't be summed up easily is exactly what I like about it. Its a look at the lives of the characters and the repurcussions of their actions. Can you sum up the whole plot of your life easily? "I've gone to school to work toward my dream job?" Sounds mundane, but I bet there's been plenty of exciting and interesting parts of your life.

Some of the best movies I've ever seen I can't sum up in a way that makes them sound exciting or in depth. "Usual Suspects"? A story about teh search for a killer/crime lord. But its a hell of a lot more than that. "American Beauty"? The story of a man having a mid-life crisis. Again, its a whole lot more than that.

Simple premise, with a lot of really cool detail in all of the above.

The thing was this: they never had much to begin with. There was this flirting thing going, but I never felt that the writers ever had a plan for them, bad or not. I never took their so-called "relationship" seriously.

I agree and disagree. Yes, its hard to define their relationship, but the aspects you've pointed out, to me, are more realistic than any other relationship I've seen in anime. I've seen exactly that sort of thing happen to friends of mine, and i've been through it myself - that weird "almost chemistry" where things never really develop, but the connection still stays.

As an aside, you probably wouldn't like 08TH MS Team in this case, since the romance element is more prominent and clear-cut.

I don't mind romance being a central theme - its just that so many times it falls into the cliches, which gets tired real quick. The Relena/Heero relatioship had a great awkwardness and uniqueness that you normally don't see, which is what i liked about it.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Originally posted by Clayface





Fair enough. I do agree that some of the characters fall into that typical cliche, but I'm so used to that sort of thing in anime that it doesn't bother much anymore.

Define what you mean by her "weak" characteristics.


True--it is quite typical in anime. You still see a bit of it in the original Gundam, which I like better, but has its weaker characterizations. Though I think the smaller main cast in the upcoming original Gundam made the interactions work better. And...as much as people like Zechs...I see only a bunch of writers trying to mine Char Aznable, the original Zechs. I also didn't buy the rivalry between Zechs and Heero. "Rivalry" is a running theme in Gundam, but in the original Gundam, the hatred kept building and building...they two opposing characters starting out competitive, then deadly personal as each takes more from the other. Which brings me to the plot--I'll address this in the plot section.

Relena seemed, well, a bit passive at times, and she certainly spent a lot of time worrying about cosmetic things. I couldn't believe that a person like this could become so...political.

[/b]


Hey, speak for yourself! I find deluded terrorists pretty dang entertaining!


Okay, I'll actually agree it has some merit...

[/b]


Eh. Again, something that I'm so used to in anime that it doesn't bother me. I'd rather have the monologues than the whiney "(fill in generic monster name here) Attack!" crap we get so much of.


Monologues are great and all...but I'd rather they focus on the interactions rather than the themes. The themes tended to overtake the characters much of the time.

[/b]


Why isn't that a good enough description? The fact that it can't be summed up easily is exactly what I like about it. Its a look at the lives of the characters and the repurcussions of their actions. Can you sum up the whole plot of your life easily? "I've gone to school to work toward my dream job?" Sounds mundane, but I bet there's been plenty of exciting and interesting parts of your life.
.


My life has some character interaction to explain the plot twists. It's not all opaque speeches and political themes.

Also, what I really didn't like was that the show didn't have many deaths. A war is a war and people die in a war. Except for one or two characters, ALL of them survived. Relena, in reality, probably would have died. A lot of civilians and faceless characters died, but from this show, you would've thought they were test dummies, because of the lack of focus on them, even after they died.


[/b]


I agree and disagree. Yes, its hard to define their relationship, but the aspects you've pointed out, to me, are more realistic than any other relationship I've seen in anime. I've seen exactly that sort of thing happen to friends of mine, and i've been through it myself - that weird "almost chemistry" where things never really develop, but the connection still stays.


I've seen this too much in anime (Princess Mononoke, Kiki's Delivery Service, Nausicaa, Evangelion) so a little bit of commitment is what I like to see now. "Instant" romance may be unrealistic, but my cynical heart needs some romanticism now and again. We look for different things.

[/b]


I don't mind romance being a central theme - its just that so many times it falls into the cliches, which gets tired real quick. The Relena/Heero relatioship had a great awkwardness and uniqueness that you normally don't see, which is what i liked about it.
[/B]

Well, there is Sailor Moon cliche (bad, unbelievable romance) and there is 08TH MS TEAM cliche. 08TH MS TEAM is more like a modern take on Romeo and Juliet, but what I like about it is that they don't run around saying, "But...I love her/him! Love conquers all!!" They like each other, but they care about their duties as soldiers as well. The lead hero is, in my opinion, a refreshing change from the anti-social leads in most Gundam series (even my favourite Gundam shows). He's likeable--he puts the safety of his "platoon" above everything else, and he genuinely cares about keeping casualties to a minimum. That, and he's not a geek (he ain't a pretty boy either). He's excitable and green, but he's easy to talk to and definitely someone I could see a girl falling for...which is what I couldn't see in other neurotic Gundam pilots. As for the girl...she isn't whiny and fidgety like most anime love interests. She's quieter than the lead hero but also rather duty-oriented, and the effect he has on her softens her, but doesn't take away her dignity, like most shows tend to do. In my opinion, the characters have a lot to do with what makes chemistry, any kind of chemistry, work.

This is all my opinion, of course, but the problem with today's anime is a lack of commitment to maturely explore an *actual* relationship that goes somewhere. Call it realism or whatever, but I honestly can't name many anime shows where the characters genuinely want to pursue one another (Is Tenchi gay? When is Ranma going to get tired and fess up? After 300 episodes?). Maybe it's not realistic to say that it'll automatically work out, but not everyone feels each other out with the "hard to get, but kind of unsure" method. But now we're starting to head towards what we're looking for at the current time rather than critiquing a show.