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Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by JAG, Feb 23, 2006.
Has anybody seen this yet?
Holy crap. So not only did it have NOTHING to do with bad ratings but the action figures were bought like hotcakes too?
What are you thinking, CN?
According to that document, the problems were with Warner Bros. It doesn't really say anything about Cartoon Network.
That was an interesting read. Petitions are (and were) pointless, so I guess there's no point in that as the production staff have moved on.
Let us hope the Teen Titans DTV is a good one, it's all we have left of this great series.
from what i have read. That is a really dumb reason why to cancel the show. Could that also be the reason for JLU's axe as well?
Oh My God! That is insane and asinine. Nothing like corporate big shots to mess everthing up for everyone else.
It's an over-simplified and biased document. It doesn't tell us anything new. I'm not dissing Mr Wheaton's document here, just for all it's drive and focus, it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. All it says that new bosses asked for a straight pitch from every show. It doesn't explain how they came to their decision, nor does it explain what criteria their reassessment was based on (money/ratings/potential/how it fits into the future focus/etc). So it tells us no more than we already new.
Titans ratings were not as high as they were, CN is going in a new direction, the show has had several seasons, TT sells toys. We knew all this.
My concern is no matter how "evil" overseerers are painted, if there is money, they'll go for it. If there is no money - or projections show money will dip, they won't. If Teen Titans was proving an investment that worked in the studio's favour, it would stay. People are people. Business is business. No one goes "mu-ha-ha, this show is liked! Let's AXE it!". They say "Hmm, this show is showing audience decline/we're not sure it fits where we want to go/we feel it's close to having it's day/issues with the toy contracts have made this unprofitable for the future/all or some of the above".
Yes it sucks for fans, and I think it's great to see Mr Wheaton pushing for fans to take action. It's great to have someone who isn't just a fan, but has some relevance to the show standing up for the elements of the show which made it special. However realistically, yes studios are ratings oriented. Yes, shake ups create changes in perspective from studios, but bottom line, if there is a good buck to be made, it would stay. People want someone to blame, blame capitalism.
Well, the link is blocked, so I can't read the document.
But JLU was not asked to re-pitch for a new season, as far as anyone I know has said. I can't speak for Titans. If either show were to have gone forward, they might have re-designed them. That wouldn't surprise me.
I get the impression (based on one of the above posts) the document blamed Warner Bros. for the cancellation. Which seems to me to be off base as well.
Ah - it really doesn't do good to critique a document I can't read.
edited: Got it open finally.
Yeah -- Wheaton either doesn't know what he's talking baout or is misinformed. Nobody new came into WBA -- in fact they laid off people last fall. Nobody has replaced them. How do I know this - because peopel I know were laid off, that's how.
Cartoon Network is the people who don't want the show. They air it -- I don't get why this is such hard math.
Having worked in the entertainment business. sometimes it *is* as simple as Mr. Wheaton says it is. Sometimes decisions is not about the money, and everything about an executive's ego. Whether Wheaton's correct in this case is a matter for conjecturem but don't underestimate the stupidity that can result from a change in management.
I'd say it's for the same reason Justice League Unlimited won't be renewed. It's likely on the belief that if it doesn't scream fad/trend/flavor of the month, then it's worthless in their eyes. Probably didn't help to have them reruned a lot in the early seasons.
I think as much as people don't like to believe it (and like to put the blame squarely on the lap of "suits") it often boils down to the fact of ratings. Toy merchandising may have been big, but TT ratings have been falling. What falls in ratings is falling in product. They are linked together. JLU - I believe - was showing a decline. Hardly surprising, it's technically in it's 5th season and it's intelligent, witty and panders to us - the minority. Strangely, I can't see it as a mainstream show.
Yes, maybe some boss egos didn't like it, but again, whether you've worked in the entertainment industry as Krypton Knight attests too, like Mr Wheaton, doesn't always give a clear picture of the whole situation. Ego is a "dirty" word so often used to people in power (often financial) yet we all deal with egos. Creators and artist HAVE to have egos too. It's used in a tabloidesque way when it's used to paint an image. Perhaps that's why I have an adversity.
Generally speaking, as with all business structures, those below "interpret" the decisions on high. Unless there is major corruption or massive internal problems, generally the issue is always a money one, it just depends on the form and how obvious that issue is. Sometimes it's not current, it's predictive analysis. And as has been said, sometimes it is weighed up one where those in charge WANT on their channel. So in that sense, yes, ego is involved, but that ego will be based on a vision of profit.
With JLU and TT's ratings - from what I've heard (and bearing in mind the large cost of JLU too) - both on a decline and both being in fifth seasons, I think one could put more money on it being about money and projective lifespan than about corruption or lazy suits.
(and I have worked in areas of entertainment myself and I've been crushed by those in charge who thing they know best with the egos. I've lost out on deals because a new person has come in and changed focus and hated what I do. It's crap. And yes, sometimes it is ego, but you can bet what they do they do because they thing it's right for the company and in the end, that's all about money once more!).
Well written James and let me add:
As TT and JLU were produced by Warner Animation, the lion's share of money from things like DVD's and toys goes to WBA first - and then a smaller amount to Cartoon Network.
So as (especially JLU) the shows in question cost CN alot, the return isn't as great as they could be. A show like Ben 10 is created for/by CN - any DVD and toy money goes to THEM first. The profits are much higher.
It's no surprise then that CN is going with more of their own product. We'll see how long it lasts, but the dollars and cents aspect makes alot of sense.
It still sucks to be us.
Out of respect for TitansGo and their bandwidth, the links to the document and an mp3 of Wil Wheaton's comments can be found near the top of the page... http://www.titansgo.net/ I've edited the first post as well.
The site also contains minor spoilers for the next U.S. episode of JLU.
they always cancell the best shows....
They cancel the worst shows too, but no one notices.
Very true. I think it's always good to be objective even if it's something important to people. It's not personal. Networks and studio don't care whether a show is awful or wonderful providing it fulfils their network criteria and brings in money.
Action shows don't have that long term appeal as the more comic ones. Unfortunate, but the industry is all about ratings. If people want someone to blame for TT being cancelled, blame the industries reaction at least partially on the short attention span of the kid demograph that supports it.
You're right, the article does say that. However, I've read from other sources that the decision was on CN's end. And if it wasn't, then the revival campaign is using the wrong address.
As for TT's ratings, I haven't seen any rating reports in a long, long time from CN. It did show a decline... back in season 4, but we don't know if it improved or not.
I would say unless there is a startling backstory we aren't aware of, current events would prove any improvement wasn't improvement enough.
i can't really get into the reasons why TITANS and JLU were cancelled -- not about to air my dirty laundry HERE (not that it's really all that dirty anyway)-- but james, it's NOT always just about money and ratings...if it were as simple as that, it'd make total sense, but while economic issues are certainly a part of the story, there are many other factors as well....it's a complicated business, and i don't pretend to understand it fully myself...
i can't speak for TITANS, but JLU's ratings have been just fine, thank you very much...."i am legion" and "shadow of the hawk" were cn's no.1 and no. 3 top-rated shows for the week they aired, and with very little promotion...i haven't yet seen our more recent numbers but i'd imagine they're in roughly the same ballpark....toy sales are solid, apparently: my sources at mattel tell me there are at least 3 more major waves of new figures due over the next 18 months....doesn't sound like a failing revenue stream to ME....
now, i will point out that this next paragraph is NOT about TITANS or JLU, but in the past i've seen networks deliberately sabotage their own top-rated shows, for a variety of seemingly random, petty or just plain bizarre reasons, and from speaking to friends of mine in both the animation and live-action sides of the business, it's not at all an uncommon story....the stuff that goes on behind the scenes is positively surreal at times -- and i've only experienced a small fraction of it personally -- sometimes simple logic and/or common sense just doesn't enter into it....
that said, i've got no beef with cn whatsoever....honestly, i'm almost relieved JLU is over (for the moment anyway), it was frankly an EXHAUSTING show to do, hard to write, extremely labor-intensive to produce, this season and the last especially.... with such an action-oriented show, after awhile it becomes really REALLY hard to keep trying to top yourself, to keep pushing the envelope for hyper-intense action sequences, upping the epic scale, etc....and honestly i'd rather get off-stage while the audience is still having a good time, before the show just starts running in place/jumping the shark/what-have-you.....since the very beginning, cartoon network's been nothing but great to us overall, gave us almost unlimited creative freedom to do the show the way we wanted to do it, and bottom-line, that's the most important thing....if they kept moving our time-slot all over the place or didn't give us as much promotion as some of their own home-grown shows, so what? ultimately these shows will live on in dvd and whatever home-video format comes next, and in future syndication, etc....i've actually been spoiled rotten by the experience, i only hope that whatever project i work on next, i'll have patrons who are HALF as easy-going and non-meddlesome as the folks at cn have been....
Maybe you were treated so nicely because others felt you earned that respect, given your past accomplishments.
I'm not at all surprised to hear that networks would sabotage shows. Networks are made up of people, and people can be petty and manipulative. Thankfully, everyone was good enough to put in the effort to make Justice League in the first place. After all those years of you guys having to remind the fans that it just wasn't likely, it was certainly a thrill to see it somehow materialize. JL was the first DCAU show I was able to follow as it developped.
I guess the only question in the back of my mind now is "were there plans for the next 13 episodes that are now kaput, or were y'all going to cross that bridge once you got there?"
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the DCAU lives on in small ways in the next few years, but yah, I'm glad JLU is ending now.