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W.I.T.C.H. vs. Winx Club - The Battle Truly Begins

Discussion in 'Disney/Pixar Forum' started by Tommy Lawson, Dec 17, 2004.

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  1. Terrence Briggs

    Terrence Briggs Noble Einherjar

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    Those posts are dumb.

    Spies is a Charlies Angels ripoff anyway :p :p :p

    Dudes, it ain't about who came first, it's about who comes STRONGEST. Bring that weak stuff, and you'll get SLAMMED, regardless of how quickly you crapped out your product ahead of the other guy.

    Ripoff claims can come from people who haven't seen the show, and rank amongst the lowest form of criticism.
     
  2. LordTerminal

    LordTerminal The old-school DK is back!

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    Well of course I think that. I'm a bloody 19-year old guy! That's the thing with stereotypes. They happen to be true once in a while. Like I said, I'm willing make exceptions if I feel no shame in such shows. (heck I'm also waiting for Mew Mew to see if it'll be as bad as the name changes seem to make it out to be.) But I think with Winx added on to it, it's enough to make most guys shoot 4Kids TV down. Especially since they're getting such a bad rap from the One Piece hack.
     
  3. Tommy Lawson

    Tommy Lawson Moderator
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    Here's Something Interesting in France

    If you have Toon Disney, or can read the credits on ABC Kids or ABC Family, you'll have noticed that France 3 is listed as one of the companies co-producing W.I.T.C.H. They have updated their website:

    http://france-truc.france3.fr/

    W.I.T.C.H. is premiering on Wednesday, February 16 in France, also with a 1-hour premiere. Wednesday mornings in France appear to be similar to Saturday mornings here in the USA IIRC. Click on "A la tele", then mercredi, and take a look at what the lead-in to W.I.T.C.H. is. :D
     
  4. sag_2002

    sag_2002 Active Member

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    Heh. Nice. The French and Italians are the only people in the world whose television stations allow this to happen.
     
  5. Freedom Fighter

    Freedom Fighter Active Member

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    I love it how other countries have networks who pick up two 'rival' shows, and not only put them on the same network, but back-to-back! Why can't companies and networks have that kind of cohesion here in the states?
     
  6. Darcy

    Darcy Takey takey! Wipey outey!

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    Agreed, but since we're no longer in the 80s when cartoons were at their best and since X-Men: Evolution has gone the way of the dodo (though I heard rumors of a fifth season), I have nothing better to watch than Winx. It's not the best show in the world, but it does entertain me. I'm perfectly satisfied with the lineup of characters. The witches by far make up for any lack of non-humanish characters in my opinion. I love my evil female villains. That's good enough for me. It's obviously not for you, but that's why I'm not you and you're not me, which I'm sure we're both ecstatic about.

    1) I do not "attack" you. You're the one that attacked me first with this little comment: "But heck, what good is it to compare a finished product (Winx, the TV series) with a TV show you admittedly haven't seen?" I'm simply presenting a reply in similar form of the original comment.

    2) I have read enough about the episodes to know that it's different than the comic storyline. Therefore, I am plenty qualified to say I wouldn't like it because it's too different. The comics and the show are worlds apart. I also said I'm not going to talk about the TV show other than to say I wouldn't like it for that reason. The comparison I dislike is between the concepts and characters of Winx and W.I.T.C.H. Since W.I.T.C.H. comes in different forms, that does include the comics and the comics should be first and foremost because they're the original storyline. I don't have to know jack about the show to talk about Winx vs. W.I.T.C.H. unless we are specifically discussing shows. This thread seems to have gone back and forth between show and general concept.

    1) I don't care how you observe W.I.T.C.H.'s TV content because I don't care about the show. As I've stated repeatedly.

    2) You do not know exactly what I've seen in Winx because you only watched four episodes. From doing long summaries of all the episodes, I am very well aware of how different they are. There are some that are excellent, there are some that are good but essentially filler, and there are some that are pointless. It depends which episodes you've seen to get a proper idea of the show, because they are so different.

    So you hate Winx. Fine with me. I don't care what you think about it. I just don't like that you seem to think you know all about it because you've seen a whopping 3.5 episodes out of 26. Not an impressive percentage there.

    I'll be sure to pass this little gem onto my animator friends. Then they'll love you as much as I do, Captain Know-It-All. :shrug:
     
  7. Frank15

    Frank15 Uptight, Yet Ditzy

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    You're right, Darcy doesn't. She never claimed she did, though. Maybe you find the show breathtakingly excellent. She doesn't care. She wasn't arguing your pro-W.I.T.C.H. comments. She hasn't been slamming W.I.T.C.H. So you are right, she does have no idea what you're complaining about.

    I'm curious, too, exactly what episodes you watched....

    That's rather subjective. I find the art rather nice, myself.

    It's difficult to take you seriously when you use the word "terrible" so loosely. I may not be an animation expert, but looking at the animation in Winx Club, and comparing it to the animation in something like Fat Albert, I can plainly see that "terrible" is unfairly harsh to call Winx Club's animation.

    Distracting? How so? To my unprofessional eyes, it's not distracting.
     
  8. Terrence Briggs

    Terrence Briggs Noble Einherjar

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    Tommy Lawson intended this to be a comparison between the animated series, didn't he? Good call, since talking about concepts is pointless beyond even the pointlessness of comparing the quality of magical girl action series :)

    If Darcy hasn't seen one of the animated series in question, what am I supposed to work with?

    I've seen as much of Winx as I have of WITCH (3.5 episodes). The 70 minutes I've seen in WITCH is superior to the 70 minutes I've seen of Winx. Anyone willing to quibble with me about that is free to do so, so long as we're both referencing the same source material (the animated series - not the comics, the concepts, or the character designs).

    I wanna (jovially) mix it up with Winx fans and/or WITCH-haters, preferably people who have seen both shows. I'll come across as a know-it-all when my opinions are strong, but I'll avoid making things personal. Cool?

    Hopefully, I'll be taken as seriously for loathing Winx's animation as Darcy will for calling the 1980s cartoons superior to those of the 1990s (I see your Jem, and raise you Batman!).

    Having said that, anyone wanna point me toward a "Real Ghostbusters vs. Extreme Ghostbusters" thread? :)
     
  9. Zebi

    Zebi Take off, eh!
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    Any posts concerning the Ghostbusters cartoons will be found in General Animation Discussion. :) You can do a forum search to find posts - or if you don't find what you were looking for, start a post of your own.
     
  10. oranthal

    oranthal Superman: A hero in life and in death

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    Well, I don't know about anyone else here, but WINX and WITCH are two shows that I look forward to watching the most on Saturday mornings. My interest in them has now surpassed TMNT.
     
  11. Darcy

    Darcy Takey takey! Wipey outey!

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    Millions of English majors would disagree. What do you think they do all day?

    You made it personal when you insulted anyone who thinks Winx animation is good, which would include many of my friends who have schooling in animation or are professional animators. You insult my friends, you insult me.

    Comic book-based cartoons are the single exception to the rule. Those admittedly have gotten better, but as a whole I prefer the 80s cartoons to the overall crap on TV today and the majority of the 90s as well.

    A friend of mine tried to register here, but couldn't, so I'm passing along some of her comments.

    1) She personally interviewed Totally Spies creator David Michel for her thesis.

    Q: Why did you decide to create a show about teenage girls? Why spies?


    A: Vincent Chalvon (who created & produced the show with myself) really liked the movie Clueless and wanted to give it a James Bond twist.

    So no Charlie's Angels involved.

    2) In response to the animation is terrible comment, she says:

    "First, let's keep in mind where the shows are produced. W.I.T.C.H. is in alliance with Disney, while currently the Mouse is in the doghouse, it still has a great deal more money than Italian-based Rainbow productions. So to discuss animation type and quality is highly unbased when attempting to make sweeping factual contents. It's like saying that Japanese animation is inferior to Disney animation, or vice versa. They are both incredibly different, just like live action films from both countries are radically different. Winx Club also started on a lower budget because, unlike W.I.T.C.H., it did not start out as a book series to test the waters, etc. etc. Animation is a very expensive endeavor to go out on, and W.I.T.C.H. was able to test the waters with comics and books or whatever, which is a lot less expensive. So when they finally did decide to animate it, they were able to invest in higher quality animation, because they all but knew it was going to be a worthwhile investment, not nearly as risky as Winx Club."

    I'll continue to stand by Winx as something I love to watch and W.I.T.C.H. as something I love to read. Maybe one day when I have more free time, I'll watch an episode of the show. But based on what I've heard so far, it will cause me great pain and I'll likely turn it off.
     
  12. Terrence Briggs

    Terrence Briggs Noble Einherjar

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    I was under the impression that English majors spoke of works they actually read. In my lit and media study courses, we discussed what we saw, not the description of the product on the book jackets. When we debate concepts, we debate that which we need not experience. If I didn't like Winx based on the commercials, the concept of female heroes, or some 2-minute excerpt I caught while flipping the channels, I wouldn't have a leg on which to stand.

    I didn't insult your animator friends. I insulted your animator friends' opinion that Winx has good animation. I insulted my lacking skills as an animator in the process. ("Anyone who thinks Winx has good animation is as good an animator as I am.")

    Good animation is not a function of budget; it is a function of effective visual storytelling. Winx may not have the lowest production budget among the current crop of Saturday morning shows, but low animation budgets never stopped a competent Asian studio from producing quality animation. The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest is considered to be one of the biggest boondoggles in TV animation history, despite being one of the most expensive. Low-budget, live-action movies such as George Washington and Mabarosi can have visuals infinitely more stunning than films with budgets several times greater (Van Helsing, Speed 2).

    I'm not bagging on Winx's animation for not being up to WITCH's visual standard; I'm bagging on it for being stiff and sloppy.

    The Totally Spies-Charlie Angels comment was a JOKE. Three (count 'em: three) tongue icons followed it :)

    No one here HAS to like WITCH and hate Winx. It'd be nice if everyone saw at least three episodes of both series, to see how they compare as action comedies (or even as dramas, though neither series carries a lot of dramativ weight).

    Despite the friction on display here, we really should discuss the 80s and 90s shows we've both seen in other threads. It's always good to get a bead on what animation folks remember from the 1980s.
     
  13. Darcy

    Darcy Takey takey! Wipey outey!

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    Perhaps "basic plot" would be a better term for what I'm speaking of. Despite the cartoon's lack of following the comics perfectly, it does still retain the same basic plot (five girls, special powers, save this and that, school, romance, yadda yadda). Which means I'm free to discuss that whole shebang as I'm very familiar with it.

    Okay, follow my logic. "Anyone who thinks Winx has good animation" = my friends. "...is as good an animator as I am." = lack of animation skills. Therefore, you're saying my friends have no animation skills. That would be insulting.

    As it stands, I think it's about time we agreed to disagree and stopped snarking at each other. When I'm back home over summer, I will see if my TV stations play W.I.T.C.H. and I will give it a try. I don't think the stations here even play it. I'm in this weird zone where nothing on TV is normal. Winx came on at 5:30 AM here, when the normal Central time was 7:30. Who knows, maybe it won't be so bad. Maybe I'll be so wowed by the style that I'll be able to watch it and not think of all the discrepancies. (But I doubt it. I remember the pain of watching "Troy." *shudder*)
     
  14. Sunset Girl

    Sunset Girl The Evil Manager!

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I did my best to give Winx an unbiased look, but I can't get past the sloppy animation and production values. I'm sorry, but I just can't. I love the character designs, I love the concept, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. The whole thing feels rushed, and apparently it was. And it's not just the animation, it's the editing, the timing, the acting. . . and I really really wanted to like this show. :sad: I understand that every show has a budget that is out of the control of the artists, but limited animation (often brought on my a small budget) doesn't have to be bad animation. And I know that story comes first, but how can I get into the story if I keep getting distracted by lousy production values?

    Sigh. I hope I don't get a lot of angry replies. Feel free to defend what you love, though. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, right?
     
  15. Hordesman

    Hordesman slashor

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    Ok, when we talk about visual storytelling in tv animation we're talking about pre-production: boards, layout, etc. Those have to be incredibly tight and detailed, bordering on animatics, to get good results from outsourcing. And even then, there's no guarantees-- particularly when you're hiring less experienced people and reshoot money is pretty low. Animation itself is farmed out. Ok, so you have a budget to make money in Europe- just in case there's no US takers. Outsourcing has gotten to the point where Disney closed their tv house in Japan because it was too expensive there. There's enormous competition for adequate to great animation facilities for less and less money. Some studios build close ties with their outsourced production studios, going on years and years. Others offer better deals and/or prestige. I'm betting Rainbow can't offer any of these, although 4Kids' involvement should get more money into the next batch of WINX.

    Gotta say, Winx looks a helluva lot better than some of the Hanna-Barbera, Filmation and Beatles SatAm stuff.
     
  16. RayChuang

    RayChuang Active Member

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    Hopefully, now that Winx Club has done well on RAI Due and France 3 in Europe, there will be more money available for Rainbow Srl to do better animation and storylines in Season 2 of Winx Club, which I believe should have started showing on the European channels by now. :)

    As for why W.I.T.C.H. looks better and has better storytelling in animated form, even with Disney's somewhat poor state they still have more than enough money in the bank to invest in a decent production.
     
  17. Terrence Briggs

    Terrence Briggs Noble Einherjar

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    Sunset Girl's preaching my gospel, sans the aggressive tone I took during the Great Darcy Debate :)

    Quite a comparison you have there :)

    I can't abide horrible production values when they make a story even MORE unwatchable. Phantom 2040's writing, voice acting, pacing, and so forth could withstand the shotty visual treatment it got. Winx can't fall back on the strength of its radio play when the visuals don't work, since its a poorly assembled localization anyway.
     
  18. Hordesman

    Hordesman slashor

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    Strength of its radio play? From 4Kids? :sweat: If you've got strong enough vocalizations, limited animation isn't as bad. I saw 2 versions of a Pokemon episode in under a week once and the strength of the Japanese voice track more than compensated for the animation. Dub version hardly came close. It's possible it's true of Winx but I won't know until I pick up some import DVDs like I did for Funky Cops.

    Eh, I've seen far too many big budget animated features with lovely visuals and nothing else. I much prefer interesting characters, stories and slashy hints. And Winx has that.
     
  19. Sunset Girl

    Sunset Girl The Evil Manager!

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    Where did you find the Funky Cops import? What country is it originally from and what language is it in? I caught a few eps a while back and got interested in its unusual style.

    I'd still be interested in seeing the import version of Winx.
     
  20. Hordesman

    Hordesman slashor

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    Virgin Megastore in Paris. They actually had a sale on it last summer so I paid for one half of season 1 and got the second for half.

    France. French. I was really thrown finding this out.

    Me too. Personally I think everything should be available in its original language version in some format or another.
     
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