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Ultimate Spider-Man Vs the Sinister Six "Spider Slayers, Parts 1-3" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by RoyalRubble, Oct 8, 2016.

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  1. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Catch a new episode of Ultimate Spider-Man Vs the Sinister Six, tonight at 8:00PM ET on Disney XD! Tune in for the first part of an epic three-part adventure featuring Spidey, the debut of an all-new hero, and a surprise return!

    [​IMG]
    Ultimate Spider-Man Vs the Sinister Six "Spider Slayers, Part 1"
    Episode Debut - October 8th, 2016
    Directed by: Young Ki Yoon
    Written by: Paul Giacoppo

    Spider-Man must team with the former traitor, Scarlet Spider, to stop Doc Ock from reawakening a secret program designed to create evil duplicates of Spider-Man.

    Comments?

    Mod Note: We appreciate and encourage discussion, but please keep your posts civil, relevant and insightful. Please do not post any improper or inflammatory material, as we will issue warnings if we believe it necessary. And remember to keep the discussion ON-TOPIC!

    Additionally, please use spoiler space when discussing upcoming "Spider Slayers" installments that have yet to officially debut in the US on Disney XD, Ultimate Spider-Man's home network. Don't ruin it for those checking out these episodes out for the first time! Disciplinary action will be taken if necessary. Let's have fun and enjoy this Ultimate Spider-Man event!
     
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    #1 RoyalRubble, Oct 8, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  2. Frontier

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    Can we all just agree that this is basically the Clone Saga? I mean, look at all those clones! Sure, they're calling it the "Spider Slayers" arc, but I've yet to see any real Spider Slayers. Though I am seeing plenty of Spider-Man clones :p.

    We've got Scarlet Spider, and you can't have a Clone Saga without Scarlet Spider, plus a deteriorating clone calling itself "Kaine," Doc Ock's in there somewhere, and now all we're missing is Peter having a personal crisis, Miles Warren, and Carrion :evil:.

    I don't think it's ever been more apparent just how unconventional this take on Peter Parker is then in this episode. He has virtually no desire for a normal life or really any normalcy at all, something he doesn't even think about, and to him being Spider-Man and a Superhero is really all there is tolife as part of his "responsibility." Which is a far cry from the Peter Parker who actually has a real life outside of being Spider-Man and who's major conflicts involve how his duties as Spider-Man conflicts with his life as Peter Parker. But it's a total non-issue with this version of Peter, especially now when pretty much the entire cast know he's Spider-Man at this point :shrug:.

    Ironically Mary Jane, who in the Spider-Man mythos has generally served as someone who grounds Peter and keeps him tethered to reality and the Peter Parker side of himself, is the one who's hesitant to become a Superhero and is concerned about having a life outside of it. Unlike Peter, who's basically dropped out of high school at this point, she's actually worried about college and a career rather then joining one of Peter's various Superhero teams :ack:.

    It's part of why making Mary Jane into a Superhero kind of feels so strange to me. Not that I don't mind watching a kick-butt female Superhero, let alone seeing MJ in a form-fitting costume, but she never needed a costume or super-powers to be an awesome and dynamic character before. That she needs to get bonded to the Carnage Symbiote and become a new Spider-themed hero to get this much focus and development feels like a misunderstanding of the character's appeal and role in Spider-Man, and devalues the normalcy that Peter needs in his life :crying:.

    All that being said, maybe because this is probably the biggest presence she's had in the show in forever, I think this is the most MJ-ish USM!MJ has been written, with her pluckiness and snappy dialogue and banter with Peter. We even got a variation on the classic "Face it Tiger" line :D!

    She felt far more true to the character in those moments then in some of her other Lois Lane-lite moments and ability to somehow hack into Hydra computers :confused:.

    It's also just really nice to see Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson having so much significant interaction in something Spider-Man related, and in a generally positive and fun way, even if it'll probably never go past the "close friendship" phase. Still, it's something ;).

    And I'm also still kind of freaked out by seeing Mary Jane bonding with the Carnage Symbiote and swinging swords, axes and hammers left and right like the actual Carnage. Heck, it's even weirder (and convenient) that she apparently has complete control of it at this point thanks to off-screen training with Doctor Conners. Isn't the Carnage Symbiote supposed to be stronger and more deadly then Venom? Causing an entire arc's worth of trouble for our heroes? And yet Mary Jane was able to master it quicker then Flash ever did with his Symbiote? I'd think all this confidence and glossing over the issue is setting up a story where MJ loses control, but I don't think that's the direction they'll be taking things :rolleyes2:.

    So...I guess that's supposed to be our interpretation of Kaine? Just a group of Spider-Man clones who can absorb his energy? And then Kaine!Prime gets sliced by the actual Kaine, only he's going by Ben Reilly. This is one weird Clone Saga adaption :sweat:.

    Seeing Scarlet back was pretty awesome, especially with that perfect entrance, and as always he proved to be a very compelling and strong counterpoint to Peter in this episode. He's still as angry and as much a loner as ever, but you can still see the new depths that knowing Peter and the rest of the team and Aunt May have given him. It's just great to have him back on the show, even if they are kinda glossing over the whole "traitor and spy" thing to put him on the heroes side again, but I guess that's okay for now :).

    Part of the problem with introducing so many Spider-themed heroes is that they can dilute and take attention away from the star of the show, and I think this happened to a degree in this episode. From MJ debuting as Spider-Woman to Scarlet's grand return, it feels like Peter didn't really get to do very much in this episode :(.

    There seems to be a lot of mystery to Scarlet Spider's origins then previously assumed. He's not a Spider-Man clone, even though Ock did clone him, but there was apparently something special about Scarlet even before Hydra and Ock got their hands on him in their attempt to replicate Spider-Man for their own ends. I'm definitely curious to learn exactly what Scarlet's mysterious origin is, though I'm also wondering how much of it we'll ultimately see revealed o_O?

    Looking forward to hopefully finally seeing the Web Warriors together again after...what, eight whole episodes? Well, better late then never...
     
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  3. JoeMabbon

    JoeMabbon Dwarf-in-a-flask

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    My eyes started to glaze over as the heroes endlessly chopped up an army of mindless, regenerating clones.

    Mary Jane makes some good points about wanting a life outside of superheroism, even if its pretty obvious how this will all end up. Having her learn to control her powers offscreen feels like a cheat.

    Scarlet's back with classic Wolverine backstory and motivations.

    Ultimately, we just move some pieces into place to get the arc started.
     
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  4. Frontier

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    And pretty brutally on MJ's part. She may not be a bad guy but she's cutting stuff up just as easily as the original Carnage would :ack:.

    Especially given the Symbiote she's using :sweat:.

    So I guess Spidey is Cyclops at this point with Spider-Woman as Jean Grey/Phoenix :p?
     
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  5. Troy Troodon

    Troy Troodon Well-Known Member

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    Did anyone else think Mary Jane's Spider-Woman gig seemed to jump the shark a bit? Heck some of her dialogue or actions are just confusing! Af first she clearly wanted a go in the action and was having fun being a "Superhero" then she suddenly gets all naggy on how important her career is, and that's fine if your heart is on your work, but not 1 minute earlier you clearly wanted to be a superhero looking for action!
     
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  6. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I got to be honest, sometimes it annoys me that Spider-Man has to constantly share the spotlight with other spider heroes, not to mention stroke their egos. It felt that way with Kid Arachnid, and it feels that way with MJ Spider-Woman.

    At the end of the day, we know who we recognize as Spider-Man. OK, the vast majority of us do, and it's Peter Parker. Now we have like 20 other Spider heroes walking around, and they all basically have to get glossed up to be on a level playing field with Peter. I don't hate it, but to have MJ become Spider-Woman after we've had Spider-Gwen, Miles Morales Ultimate/Kid Arachnid, Scarlet Spider, Amadeus Cho Iron Spider, Agent Venom, Young Madame Web, it's a lot of flipping Spider avatars for one show.
     
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  7. JoeMabbon

    JoeMabbon Dwarf-in-a-flask

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    Spin-off branding is a powerful thing.
     
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  8. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Pretty good episode.

    - It was weird seeing Peter Parker so excited about being a super-hero that he wasn't even considering having a normal life. It's consistent with how the show has played out so far but it's so different than what we usually get in other Spidey media. I appreciate they tried to take Peter in another direction than before but the end result is kind of awkward.

    - The Spidey clones, synthezoids, Spider-Slayers or whatever they were actually called were decent opponents, but again pretty different than the clones or Kaine from the actual comic story. This part I didn't mind as much, since I usually like it when shows do their own take on certain stories rather than being straight-up faithful adaptations. The fight scenes were entertaining, some pretty cool choreography there.

    - Scarlet Spider returning - and in an awesome way as well. I liked how the events of "The New Sinister Six" affected him, and how he felt guilty about what he did to his friends and Aunt May. Pretty cool stuff. I agree he was reminiscent of Wolverine in a few scenes, especially now that we know he's trying to figure out his past life.

    - The Peter & Mary Jane "date" was pretty nice. It's a small step in the right direction I guess, but it's a shame we had to wait 100 episodes for this to happen (well, only 99 episodes have aired because they skipped one stand-alone adventure). It's not a real romance or anything but at this point I would be fine with the two being good friends who spend some more time together. The Spidey & MJ team-up was great though!

    - MJ becoming the Ultimate Spider-Woman was another pretty awkward development. It was weird how she shifted from wanting to have a normal life to becoming a super-hero throughout the episode. Then there's the big reveal she learned how to control the symbiote that well off-screen. It's weird seeing MJ chop up her enemies like that - granted it was entertaining, but still weird. Her costume looked pretty good, even if it was a little too similar to Scarlet's. But I like all the small details they added to all the Web Warriors (which should appear in the next episode) to make their outfits similar but still different enough so you can tell them apart.

    - Honestly, it's pretty disappointing MJ had to develop super-powers to play a bigger role on the show. It's cool they're using her differently than in other shows or movies but I thought the reporter angle she had could have been enough and lead to some interesting stuff. I just wish the show would have used MJ some more, and out of costume (of course, I mean super-hero costume :D).

    All things considered, not a bad episode... just a strange and confusing one. But I liked it.
     
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  9. Frontier

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    Spidey's had to share the spotlight with other heroes since day one of this cartoon, once they made it into a team show that focused on Spider-Man leading several group of teen heroes. Part of the premise of this show has arguably been using Spider-Man as a vehicle for introducing and promoting other heroes, and it's stayed true to that at least :shrug:.

    At least now the team he's leading and the slew of other heroes appearing are actually, if sometimes tangentially, connected to the Spider-Man franchise :sweat:.

    It all feels odd for a character who's primary appeal has been his solo hero status, relateability with his normal lifestyle contrasted with his Superhero one, and the focus on his supporting cast, but the show obviously proved successful in-spite of that.
    I think they could've done more with MJ then a Lois Lane riff (even if it's a reference to the actual Ultimate comics), which feels kind of funny when we have a redheaded Lois in the movies at the moment, but that angle could've been used to help keep the Bugle relevant and maybe get Peter involved there. Which obviously didn't happen :(.
     
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  10. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Maybe someday they'll make "Spider-Man Unbound", with Peter & Mary Jane working together at the Daily Bugle, being a couple and MJ knowing his secret. Then Ultron attacks. :p

    Speaking of redheads, I wish the symbiote didn't cover MJ's hair, similar to the designs for most of the other Spider-Women.
     
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  11. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    And MJ is, of course, voiced by Stana Katic :D.

    Agreed. With how iconic her red hair is to MJ's look, it feels like a shame not to let it flow out on her Superhero costume :sad:.
     
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  12. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I liked it then because they were more unique and all had their own identities and such. They weren't variations of Spider-Man. They were Iron Fist, Power Man, White Tiger, Nova, etc. Then all the other spider heroes started diluting the brand.
     
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  13. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    I wonder how the other Web Warriors are going to react when Spider-Woman MJ will ask for their help. I'm not sure all of them even know who she is. Though I guess Flash/Agent Venom will vouch for her.

    I agree with this, Spidey's original team and even the New Warriors had more variety than the current Web Warriors. This is one of the things I didn't really like about having 5 Hulks on the same team back on Agents of SMASH.
     
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    #13 RoyalRubble, Oct 11, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  14. Frontier

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    Maybe they all had off-screen interaction and bonding moments with her like they did with Aunt May :p?

    I will concede that, whatever issues the team's portrayal on the show had, they were far more unique and individualized as a team then the Web Warriors are.
     
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  15. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    I also wanted to add that I think the writing for this team of spider-themed people has generally been stronger than the stories they came up with for the team of Hulks.

    That's possible. It would be funny if they revealed everyone but Spidey actually knew about MJ practicing her symbiote powers with Doctor Connors.
     
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  16. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    Catch a new episode of Ultimate Spider-Man Vs the Sinister Six, tonight at 8:00PM ET on Disney XD! Tune in for the second part of this epic three-part adventure!

    [​IMG]
    Ultimate Spider-Man Vs the Sinister Six "Spider Slayers, Part 2"
    Episode Debut - October 15th, 2016
    Directed by: Jae Woo Kim
    Written by: Joshua Hale Fialkov

    Spider-Man and Scarlet Spider have to infiltrate the sunken Hydra Island so Scarlet can destroy the lab that created him.

    Comments?

    Mod Note: We appreciate and encourage discussion, but please keep your posts civil, relevant and insightful. Please do not post any improper or inflammatory material, as we will issue warnings if we believe it necessary. And remember to keep the discussion ON-TOPIC!

    Additionally, please use spoiler space when discussing upcoming "Spider Slayers" installments that have yet to officially debut in the US on Disney XD, Ultimate Spider-Man's home network. Don't ruin it for those checking out these episodes out for the first time! Disciplinary action will be taken if necessary. Let's have fun and enjoy this Ultimate Spider-Man event!
     
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    #16 RoyalRubble, Oct 15, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  17. Frontier

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    I usually don't care for the chibi fourth-wall gags but the ones with Scarlet and Ock were so adorable :anime:.

    Between this version of Ock being so single-mindedly determined to destroy Spider-Man, betraying Zola and everybody else he's ever worked under, and the times he tried to hurt Aunt May to get at Spider-Man, I don't blame Spidey for not giving him any kind of benefit of the doubt. There's certainly been no prior indication that this Ock has any "code of honor" to him, which seems more accurate for the Ock from the comics then this cartoon :shrug:.

    Though I guess it's fitting to have Doctor Octopus act more like his traditional characterization in an episode where he gets a visual makeover to actually look like the traditional Doc Ock :evil:.

    So Scarlet Spider is a clone of Spider-Man! Or...a Synthezoid clone made using his DNA and made to believe otherwise. Close enough :p.

    The titular Spider Slayers, while as far from the traditional Spider Slayers as you could get, were a pretty effective and almost creepy physical threat for Spidey and Scarlet in this episode. Just three of them were able to give Peter and Scarlet a lot of trouble, and then hold off the rest of the Web Warriors once they showed up. Even their personalities seemed pretty twisted, with how much they seemed to enjoy hurting and even maiming their opponent. If nothing else, they proved to be far more effective a counter against Spider-Man and his team then the Sinister Six ever were. Which means Ock and Hydra kinda dropped the ball on not using these guys earlier :confused:.

    I wonder if the Spider Slayers count as clones like it seems Scarlet does? It sounds like Scarlet's creation was different from the others, and he ended up getting more of Peter's DNA then they did, which seems to be the explanation for why he's so different from them and the "Alpha Clone." They even have issues with degeneration like the Miles Warren clones from the comic Clone Saga, though I wonder why it is that Scarlet is the only Synthezoid/clone that doesn't need to recharge o_O?

    The Wolverine comparisons to Scarlet Spider seem most apt this episode with his issues controlling his rage and the reveal that Hydra's Spider Slayers program was codenamed "Weapon S" ala Weapon X. Marvel, still cribbing elements from the X-Men even as you downplay them in media :rolleyes:.

    Mary Jane using that Carnage Symbiote as Spider-Woman still looks far more insidious then I think the creators intend for it to be :ack:.

    Oh hey, it's the Web Warriors! We haven't seen the whole team together and active since they fought the Sinister Six (hey, remember when that subtitle was actually relevant?). Granted they also didn't really do that much in this episode outside of reacting to Mary Jane becoming Spider-Woman and Scarlet being back, but it was still nice to see the team back in action :).

    I liked that Flash still had a grudge against Scarlet for his betrayal, even if he was apparently the only one still taking issue with it. I mean, I guess Scarlet should be in the clear since he was created to follow Ock's every order and never had a choice otherwise, but it feels like they're still glossing over the fact that he was a traitor working for Hydra the entire time they knew him. Ah well, I guess it's just nice to have the whole team back together ;).

    Why am I not surprised that, only an episode after MJ gets a form-fitting spandex costume, we get a close shot of her backside here :rolleyes2:?

    So the original nanotech upgrade Ock got in the season premier was not actually how it was intended to work? I guess that explains why it made him look so ugly and didn't seem to have any actual benefit towards using it. In contrast, the nanobots used in this episode give him a younger, leaner, and apparently cured body with much stronger and more effective tentacles, not to mention a modern version of his costume from the 90's Spider-Man cartoon. Now Octavius actually really looks like Doctor Octopus, and is potentially more dangerous then he ever was before :eek:.

    It figures that even when he's not actively trying to kill Spider-Man, Ock still somehow manages to make life even tougher for Spidey :mad:.

    I guess it was good to finally deal with what happened to Zola and maybe definitively put him to rest at the bottom of the sea. Even if he's still alive in that SHIELD Watch, it'll probably be a long while before anyone from Hydra is able to find him (if they're even still looking). And Captain America never once got to deal with the fact that one of his major enemies came back to life :(.

    "Scarlet and the Spider Slayers" would probably have been the kind of title Marvel would've released during the 90's Clone Saga. Which isn't necessarily a good indicator of quality :sweat:.

    So now we have five spider-themed heroes and 4 Spider-Man clones in the same show, which makes a total of 9 Spider-Man-esque characters on USM. Sure the Spider Slayers have to be in stasis, but now they're a trump card Scarlet and the team can pull out every now and then. Outside of selling toys though, I have to wonder if we really need all these spider people in the series, but I guess it's a moot point since the show won't have long to really explore it now (for better or worse).
     
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    #17 Frontier, Oct 15, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  18. ShadowBlinky

    ShadowBlinky Never A Good Bot

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    I have to admit it was rather cool how Doc Ock wrapped his tentacles to his limbs.
     
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  19. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    - The new Spider Slayers/synthezoids/clones were pretty cool. I liked how their designs looked, and found it kind of funny how Ghost Spider basically had the Future Foundation Spidey uniform (or more appropriately for this show, a design similar to Anti-Venom). He was probably my favorite out of the three, with his powers being interesting and his lack of emotion which I thought made him pretty amusing. The others were fine as well, they proved to be good opponents if only for a single episode. It would be cool if we see more of them, since there's one more part of this story-arc.

    - Scarlet learning the truth about his origin - that he is in fact a synthezoid himself, created to lead an army of Spider Slayers, was handled pretty well. The moral dilemma Spidey guided him through about not letting his past affect him felt a little forced and didn't really get a decent conclusion but I thought it worked for the most part. I also liked that brief allusion that Bone Spider was the one who scarred his face. One thing I am curious about is why Doctor Octopus named him Scarlet Spider in the first place. I can understand Bone, Ghost and even Goliath Spider but Scarlet seemed kind of random.

    - Doc Ock's new look was pretty cool. His new powers and abilities made his fight scenes even more entertaining. Also nice they once again addressed his issues with Arnim Zola, considering the stuff these two have been through over the course of this season. One thing I didn't exactly like about the new Ock was his voice - for some reason hearing Tom Kenny's voice coming out of this Ock sounded weird to me. I didn't think it fit that well, I didn't really have any problem with it back when Ock looked like a suffering scientist but now that he looks so healthy it just sounds a little off.

    - It was nice seeing the other Web Warriors in action again, with MJ in there as well this time. I liked that brief scene where they learn of MJ's new super-powers and also appreciated the fact she didn't use them to chop up anyone in this episode. Also pretty cool hearing Flash call Scarlet a traitor again, after the events of "The New Sinister Six", where he had to fight him to protect Aunt May.

    - The opening narration using chibi versions of Spidey, Ock, Scarlet and even MJ was pretty silly, I thought they kind of stopped doing stuff like this. It was harmless enough but I didn't really care much for it. Also kind of weird that there was no "To Be Continued..." sign at the end of the episode, when there's supposed to be a 3rd part to this arc.

    Overall, a pretty good episode. It was nice learning more about Scarlet and Doc Ock getting an upgrade which makes him even more powerful and dangerous than before. Looking forward to whatever happens next.
     
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    #19 RoyalRubble, Oct 16, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  20. Frontier

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    Well, he does have a primarily deep red costume ;).

    Tom Kenny has always been an interesting and somewhat strange choice for Doc Ock, which I guess is fitting for the less conventional take they've been going for with the character from the beginning, so it's a little jarring to hear him voicing a more traditional looking version of Otto :ack:.

    But I think, to Kenny's credit, he's still doing a solid job with what he has to work with even if he's not exactly who you'd ever picture Doctor Octopus sounding like :sweat:.

    I still remember when Kenny was Curt Conners, another unexpected casting decision, for all of two episodes before they brought back Dee Bradley Baker to reprise the role...
    I love how Mary Jane has never been shown to interact with anyone on this team outside Flash and suddenly they all seem to know each other and need no introduction :p.

    Was there a "To Be Continued" for parts 1 and 2 for the Symbiote Saga? The 2nd part of that arc ended pretty definitively before we got part 3, much like here with squaring away all the Web Warriors, Zola, and Scarlet Spider stuff, so I wonder if that had anything to do with it o_O?
     
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