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"Ultimate Spider-Man (Animated Series)" News & Discussion Thread, Part 7 (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by James Harvey, Mar 30, 2013.

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  1. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    Young Justice was not all that effective of a show with all their young people. They ruined Wally much like at the end of the DCU. A lot of characters got short-changed because there were so many characters and subplots going around at the same time.

    Wally West was the slowest Flash and got disintegrated because his own family members were going too fast and caused him too evaporate. "Hey Bart, slow down so we don't kill Wally...oops, I said that a little slow even though I'm the fastest man alive."

    That's a joke. In the comics, for years Wally West WAS the fastest Flash. He was the one that discovered the Speed Force and realized he was mentally holding himself back so he couldn't surpass his late uncle. For him to go out like that in such an awkward fashion felt like another kick in the teeth after what we had to endure pre-New 52.
     
  2. suss2it

    suss2it Active Member

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    I don't know I don't really feel like that show had any mismatched characters. I mean the KF/Robin friendship was taken straight from the comics for instance. And at one point or another all the characters on the Team were a Teen Titan right? (Except obviously for Kaldur) Whereas with Marvel, the teen teams were always very specific. The Teen Titans probably had a hundred or so members altogether but with Young Avengers its a much more set in stone cast. The Teen Titans to me are more like the X-Men, you can mix and match all of them fairly easily and still be left with a recognizable Teen Titans/X-Men roster.

    Yeah I'd love to see most of the characters get animated as well. A Young Avengers movie based off Jim Cheung's series would work as it get to have a PG-13 rating and keep Wiccan's and Hulkling's sexuality intact. As for Rikki I don't really think her and Onslaught or a packaged deal, I feel you could just make her from an alternate universe without referencing Onslaught and she'd still be fine.

    . Maybe. I'm not that much of a fan of Rikki, but Winter Soldier is awesome so I'd watch anything with him in it.

    [quoteI'm not against creating new characters either. I would probably be more supportive of Sam and Ava if the characters were likable. At least Ava has softened a little, but Sam in particular remains an unrelenting, annoying jerk.[/QUOTE]To be fair every single character on the show is 1 dimensional with a rare occurrence of depth.

    You can argue the second (plot-driven) season didn't use its characters effectively, but I don't see how you can say that about the first season. And keep in mind just because a character was on the Team that didn't make them a main character, so there was no reason for every single person who showed up to be getting spotlighted. The main six characters (with the exception of Wally who was basically substituted for Blue Beetle) all got good character changes, development and interactions throughout the second season too.

    And they ruined Wally West? Really? Just because he's not the fastest speedster? You do know characters are more than just their powers right?

    If they slowed down then they wouldn't have been able to stop the device that was gonna destroy the Earth.

    Yes. Ignore all the character growth he went through in the show. This was a kick in the teeth to Wally fans because he wasn't the fastest guy around and because he made a heroic sacrifice in the series finale. But I mean if all that interests about these characters are their powers I can kinda understand why you feel the way you do.
     
  3. W.C.Reaf

    W.C.Reaf Active Member

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    I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the idea that USM could've used Marvel's stable of teen characters instead of de-aging adult ones and creating new ones.

    Like or hate YJ but it did love showing off that DC's rich in teen characters that could be used. It furthered the themes of the show and the expansiveness of the world. The creators had a massive list of all the DC teen they could use then whittled it down to what would work with what they wanted to do. Wouldn't that have been better than having a team comprised of characters not originally teens or from the comics?

    Surely fans of Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and the Richard Rider Nova look at USM and feel a lot worse than you do about Wally in YJ.
     
  4. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    Only two members of the team were de-aged. Both White Tiger and Nova are teens in the comics anyway.

    And there's no point in doing Wiccan if they're going to be barred from using his sexuality. The fact that they went with teenified versions of adult heroes likely had more to do with the fact that those are all characters Marvel wants to push. Cage has been a major player in the Avengers for the past few years and now he's getting his own show on Netflix. It's brand-building, albeit a mediocre attempt at it.

    Also, not to belabor a point, but the fan opinion is largely irrelevant since most of the audience has never heard of these characters anyway. I can't imagine adult Richard Rider Nova fans have any significant influence on stuff like this.
     
  5. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    You must be joking. The first season is a model example of how to do a "team" show of its kind. The second season probably had too many characters for its own good (it definitely tried to do too much in 20 episodes) but the first season did a magnificent job of balancing the various plots and subplots and all of the characters' personalities.

    That being said, sussit has a very good response to the death of Wally West and I'll let his words finish that particular talking point.

    That is true. Young Justice was more a Teen Titans show than the actual Teen Titans show. The show worked well because the team in the comics had a rotating cast and everyone's worked well together like you said. That's not to say that something similar isn't possible in a Marvel show, in fact it's probably quite doable, but it'll be weirder for comic fans to get into because of the changes.

    A PG-13 DTV based off of Young Avengers would be awesome. I'd love it, it was such a great run.

    I'm not even sure if making Rikki from an alternative universe is even necessary. You could probably pull off Bucky becoming the Winter Soldier and Rikki originating in the same universe. As for why Rikki vs. Winter Soldier is a fanboy dream of mine, keep in mind that Rikki and Bucky are more or less related and Bucky has turned evil (as well as badass), while Rikki is heroic and is more or less preserving the Barnes' legacy. The sheer amount of layers connecting the two characters would make for quite a memorable clash, especially if Rikki was a direct descendant of Winter Soldier and not just from an alternate universe.

    QFT. There's nothing stopping Marvel from doing the same thing and making it really great. A cartoon based on the magnificent comic "Avengers Academy" would be nonstop awesome.

    White Tiger and the new Nova also originated in USM and were later brought into the comics. They don't really count.
     
  6. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case there's even less basis for the "They kiddified them!" complaints. And even the original Nova was a teen when introduced.
     
  7. W.C.Reaf

    W.C.Reaf Active Member

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    You clearly missed the general point of the complaint, that they didn't use teen characters from the comics. They either created new ones or de-aged adults when they could've used actual teens from the comics that are great characters and would've fit right in.

    It's also hardly "brand-building" for Cage or Iron Fist since everywhere else they're adults. That's brand confusion.
     
  8. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    Not really. People are used to altering/conflicting portrayals of characters. I certainly didn't see anyone outraged that the Teen Titans weren't the same in Young Justice, or that the Batman movies are nothing like the cartoons. As I said before, they've been building up Cage and Iron Fist for years by making part of the Avengers and putting them in video games and stuff, and now they're getting their own TV shows. That's not a coincidence. They were trying to use a popular character like Spider-Man to introduce them to a new audience.

    If we're talking about White Tiger that probably was demographic purposes, since there are very few Latina characters with any real notoriety at Marvel, so creating one from scratch gave them the biggest debut audience they could muster.
     
  9. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    The closest thing Young Justice did to what USM did was with Zatanna, and Zatanna eventually grew to resemble the character she is in the comics. Plus Zatanna even when she was originally introduced was young. All of the characters involved for that matter in Young Justice have always been young or started off young and grew up later, with exceptions of original characters like YJ's Aqualad and Artemis. Luke Cage and Iron Fist have never been depicted as "young", both of them have generally been interpreted as thirty-something since they were introduced. Seeing them suddenly depicted as teenagers are much harder to swallow than Zatanna being a teenager.

    And even if it was to promote Iron Fist and Luke Cage, this is a really awkward way to do it. Iron Fist and Luke Cage scarcely apply to their counterparts in every other piece of Marvel media ever (and that will include the Netflix series). It also shows a poor case of priorities on Marvel's part. The priority should have been that if you're going to have a teen Spidey team up with other teenagers, should have been to find a group of characters that would interact naturally with Spider-Man, and then build the marketing push around the resulting team, not put what seems like the best marketing push first without considering team dynamics and storytelling. If Iron Fist and Luke Cage needed to be pushed they should have been guest stars or recurring characters resembling how they are in the comics.

    As for White Tiger . . . your argument is flawed. Yeah, there aren't a lot of Latina characters at Marvel with any sort of name recognition, but you can say the same about most of Marvel's young characters, unless you've read Young Avengers, the Young Allies relaunch, the "Girl Without a World" miniseries or Avengers Academy/Arena you're not going to know most of them besides maybe X-23 and Lyra because both characters debuted elsewhere in more famous titles. But that's not my main point. My point is why not pull a Latina character from the comics and place her on the team? Why would that be a worse choice for creating a debut audience? A Latina character (like, say, the new Miss America) would be just as unknown to kids as White Tiger is, and would fulfill the same demographic purposes. It would be easier on the writers (as the character already has a pre-determined voice to draw from) and you can cross-promote with an existing comic line naturally and immediately, plus a pre-existing character means there's already a brand for that character, if only a small one, and you can grow that small brand into a bigger one.

    That's not to say that creating an original character for the cartoon is bad, but I think USM would have been better served with three team members being pulled from the comics and THEN maybe an OC for Spidey's team.
     
  10. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    Because quite frankly, and I don't mean this to sound blunt, but comics are a dying medium at this point. The numbers even the best-sellers churn out are absolutely paltry. I don't think trying to cross-market with the comics is a very big priority because even in the age of superhero movies and video games and cartoons, nobody is reading them anymore. So if the argument is that they should've taken this opportunity to promote existing teen heroes from the comics, that's probably not a priority for anyone at Marvel. They're looking at the bigger picture wrt to merchandising and movies and TV shows and all that. If you're going to do that there really isn't much point in trying to use this as a vehicle to promote someone like Rikki Barnes (just to use your example), especially when she's not likely to show up in any other media anytime soon.
     
  11. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    Honestly, I wouldn't really care about the de-aging or the original characters if it was all used effectively. My, and a vast majority of people I think, major problem with the show is that the creative team don't.

    Heck, from my reading of Avengers Academy and from what I've heard about the Nova book, the comics use Ultimate Spider-Man's OC better than the show actually does :sweat:.
     
    #471 Frontier, Nov 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2013
  12. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    Comics don't have to be a dying medium. You CHOOSE to let it be a dying medium. With Marvel Digital Comics you can put comic books on your eReader just like eBooks. If you put the effort into it you can revitalize the comics and gain the new readership you want. Marvel's Ultimate line did that at the onset of the millennium. It can happen again. You just need to put EFFORT into it again.

    However, I wasn't just arguing for cross-promotion. My point is that what do de-aging Luke Cage and Iron Fist and creating brand-new White Tiger and Nova incarnations do that promoting existing teen heroes wouldn't? What does Ava Ayala provide that America Chavez (the new Miss America who is a Latina just like Ava) would not? You can make the existing young heroes a big brand name the same way you can try to by de-aging Luke Cage and Iron Fist and creating new versions of Nova and White Tiger IMO. Yes, it would be difficult, but so is the path USM took in providing us with its lineup of characters. Marketing is difficult in general.

    Ultimately, I fail to see your point here.

    Oh, I agree with you. My grievance is just an additional one on top of that.:sweat:
     
  13. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe they just wanted to use characters they wanted to use. *shrugs*
    It's not a very good show but people tend to grasp at straws to find more ammunition when there are already tons of legitimate criticisms. "They made up new characters" or "they aren't using it to push real teen heroes" is just silly to me.
     
  14. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    While I find the "made up new characters" argument a bit silly too, I don't see why it's a problem to complain why they're not using teen heroes who exist in the comics. This show was a golden opportunity to introduce them to kids and turn them into brands.

    Obviously MOA used the characters they wanted to use. Though the new Nova being named after Jeph's deceased son makes me wonder how much say MOA really had. I'm not against the tribute though I wish it didn't come off at the Richard Rider Nova's expense.
     
  15. RoryWilliams

    RoryWilliams Well-Known Member

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    Well, Rider has been dead a few years by now and they've made a point of trying to push the new Nova as one of their few biracial/Latino superheroes, so that probably factored into it.
     
  16. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    That is true. Rider is also probably permanently dead at that, it's hard to survive getting sealed in an alternate universe that is imploding. Though that also killed Thanos off and yet the MCU is pushing Thanos pretty hard so who knows.

    The new Nova WAS created specifically for USM and ported to the comics just like White Tiger was, though. Which again, brings up the cross-comics promotion thing I was talking about. I'm not going to keep harping on it but apparently it is still a priority for Marvel if they did that.
     
  17. Roxas_Sora

    Roxas_Sora Well-Known Member

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    Let's back on topic, guys. Season 2 is over, now it's time for guessing what it will happen in Season 3. I have a few ideas/suspictions; and I would like to share them with you. Let's see:

    1º) Already confirmed spoilers:
    + Cloak and Dagger: I guess they will become new members in Spidey's team, which will be really good. Adding another female character is good, and they are regular characters in Spideman's adventures in NY's streets.
    + Amadeus Cho: I don't see this guy as an official member of Spidey's team. But it makes me thing, if Amedeus Cho is here, maybe we will see Hercules too? I honestly see Amadeus Cho as a current character in "Hulk and the agents of SMASH" than in Spidey's show.
    + Ka-Zar: He's technically a teenager, so it would be interesting to see him interacting with Spidey; but he has a current role in "Hulk and the Agents of SMASH", so I don't count on him as an official member of the team.
    + Agent Venom: I suspect the symbiote will combine itself with the gadget used by Spidey back in "For Your Eye Only". (No one else noticed the similarities?). The big question here is, who is going to be "Agent Venom"? There's no hints to assume it will be Flash Thompson, and I'm afraid Harry is too "unstable" to suit this role. I have a suspiction, but I'm not sure of it.
    * Quake: This is not officially, but there has been a lot of rumors about Quake joining Spidey's team in the future. I'm not sure of it, but it would be good to have another female in the team.

    2º) Unfinished stuff:
    + John Jameson/Man-Wolf: I think this is something needed to be explored in season 3, to discover what happened to John Jameson after being freed from the Man-Wolf. Maybe it would help to stop Jameson smear campaign against Spidey; but who am I kidding?, that's never going to happen.
    + Scorpion: We saw the Scorpion from K'unn-L'unn becoming something more similar to the classic Spiderman's foe. However, that was just through a tech armor, it needs something more. Considering the Scorpion's serum from "The Lizard", I guess they will have to show us the Scorpion taking the serum to increase his power. I mean, they owe it to us; what was the point in showing it in that episode if there's no reason to use it?
    + The Vulture: This is another unsolved point in "The Lizard" episode. We saw four serums from animal's DNA in the episode, which coincide with four of Spidey's classic enemies (the Lizard, the Rhino, the Scorpion and the Vulture). We got three of them (Lizard, Rhino and Scorpion), but we haven't seen the Vulture anywhere. So I believe they will have to use it in the next season; this is another thing they owe us.
    + Green Goblin: Well, as we all guessed, Norman is a cause lost; now he's more Goblin than human. As we know, Spidey will join the Avengers in next season; and that makes wonder, do you think the Green Goblin will join Red Skull's Cabal as a "side effect"? After all, Norman Osborn created the Cabal in the comics, so it would suit perfectly in the Goblin becomes a member in the animated version, don't you think?
    + Secret Identity: You can say whatever you want, but this will have to be a key in the next season. I believe the Goblin already discovered it back in "Ultimate", from the "goblined" teammates of Spidey; but decided to keep it quiet to have it as an "Ace" against Spiderman in the future. After all, he already suspected it back in the episode "Carnage"; although they tricked him to believe he was wrong, with Iron Fist dressed as Spiderman.

    3º) My personal suspictions:
    + Clone Saga: I still have this idea, in season 3, we will have an animated version of the Clone Saga. After seeing Doc Ock's experiments with Spidey's DNA, is difficult to believe this won't happen; even more if you consider that Doc Ock is the one who created Spiderman's clones in the Ultimate Comics, instead of the Jackal. The clones could be several ones:
    - SpiderWoman: We need a female spider. It would be like Dani from "Danny Phantom".
    - Tarantula: Like Ultimate Comics' version, who also resembles Ai Apaec from 616-Earth.
    - Scarlet Spider: A version of Ben Reilly, who uses Iron Spider's armor; like those other clones.
    - Agent Venom: A version of Kaine, not deformed or insane, bonded to Venom.
    - Carnage: An insane clone of Peter seems the perfect way to bring this villain back.
    + New Villains: They can clearly use any supervillain from Marvel Universe, but I believe Spiderman can't be himself without his classic foes. Problem is, they have already used Spidey's main foes, and there's no much choices for future adventures. I have a list for potential future appearances: the Spider-Slayers, Hydro-Man, Mysterio, Shocker, Iguana or Stegron (replacing the Lizard?), the Kangaroo?, Stunner?, the HobGoblin?, the Chameleon and the Tinkerer.
    + New Team-Ups: Spiderman is a character that has worked with all the heros in Marvel Universe, so I believe there are a few ones we could see in the future. The best candidates I see are Silver Sable, the Fantastic Four (not just the Thing), some of the X-Men (not just Wolverine) and... why not?, Howard the Duck.
    + I think we have too much Spiderman and too little Peter Parker lastly. I would like to see Aunt May and Mary Jane being part of Spiderman's adventures more often; especially Mary Jane. I know they said there wouldn't be love relationship here, but I think it's time to change that. Come on!, how can you make a teenager's story if there are no hormones? Specially if the Green Goblin discover Spidey's secret identity; which will surely bring us the classic story about Gwen Stacy's death.

    Well, opinions?
     
  18. suss2it

    suss2it Active Member

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    It really was man. Jim Cheung's art was really great too. I've heard really good things about the new volume too, probably gonna get started on that sooner or later.

    Which further drives home my point that you adapt Rikki without having to do Onslaught.

    Another great series. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Now if USM was closer in tone to that with a similar level of quality I would be happy. The cast wouldn't even have to be the same, since I loved the writing more than the characters anyway.

    Comics are from a dying medium. Ever since DC's New 52 stunt sales have only been going up. Now yeah, comics are definitely a smaller medium than television, video games and movies, but that doesn't mean its on its last breath. Looking outside the big 2, Image's been on fire lately launching critically acclaimed titles that also sell well. Not to mention the fact that comics are still a breeding ground for all the other mediums.

    But yeah I'm not really advocating using existing teen characters, cause like I said earlier even though Marvel has a lot of them I feel like most work best in their specific groups. Not to mention the writing for this show is just bad most of the time and I don't think selecting different characters would've changed that.

    I think Star-Lord was also trapped in that. But both him and Thanos are appearing in upcoming Marvel movies so I guess they have get out of death for free cards.


    I honestly can't seem them adding any characters to the show, I just feel like that would be too much change and this show doesn't really do that. However I wouldn't being proven wrong. And yeah Cho would work on SMASH.
    I think those were just easter eggs to fill out the background. If Vulture shows up there's guarantee that it'll because of the serum. But then again in the comics there is a more mutated Vulture (although I think he's dead now) so who knows.
     
  19. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    For season three, I personally think it would be interesting if they tried the storyline where Aunt May finds out that Peter is Spider-Man.
     
  20. sparkykandy

    sparkykandy Member

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    Well, CBR has posted its last interview for the season. No clue if they're going to continue them or not for season three. Not much has been said for season three that we don't already know, but I found the comments concerning the Goblin interesting.

    Anyways, for my hopes and speculation for Season Three:
    * Obviously, they're going to continue with the Goblin plot line. I'm also curious to see what Harry's reaction will be like when he finds out that his dad is now probably the Goblin permanently.
    * I really hope we get Nova's origin story. I know that in the comics, he got the helmet from his dad who is currently alive but missing. I know that Sam's family is alive in the comics, but I'm guessing based on his comments about Aunt May that Sam's family is dead in the show. Either that or missing or something else. My guess: shortly after receiving the helmet, something happens to Sam's family and the Guardians of the Galaxy take him in. I know that his dad used to know Gamora and Rocket Raccoon in the comics.
    * Hopefully, Hobgoblin shows up. It's a bit weird that a serial killer (Carnage) has made far more animated appearances while Hobgoblin has shown up in only one series so far. (Knows that they had plans for him in Spectacular.)
    * Wacky guess: Somebody's going to find out Peter's secret identity: whether Harry, Goblin, or Aunt May.
    * We'll get another mind swap episode. Would be freaking hilarious if Spidey managed to swap minds with Doc Ock this time around.
     
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