The villian...wins?

Discussion in 'Story Board Workshops' started by Tenku, May 8, 2006.

  1. Tenka Musou

    Tenka Musou Carnivorous Vulgaris

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    I feel criminal for responding to this, it being old and all, but I'd like to give my two cents on this.

    There's two things that could help you, the first being the story of Casey at the Bat, where he is the hero but he strikes out. I know that's a long shot, but everytime I think of evil winning, I think of that story and how it was the flaw in the so-called hero that caused the failure. Perhaps having the hero's own emotions, arrogance, or allies screw something up could cause a problem.

    The other alternative is to have the hero's victory come at a high price, maybe he exchanges his soul for a boost in power, or he becomes mortally wounded as a result, or the possibly cliche villain-possesses-hero-to-emerge-victorious-at-the-last-moment, kind of like a parasite of sorts. Think of what Myotismon did in Digimon, he took over someone else's body to rebuild his ambitions and body, all the while pulling the strings elsewhere, only you could have the hero being the shell.

    The second thing is the moment in the Batman comics when Bane broke Batman's back, that was an utter defeat, especially since Bane discovered his identity, the location of the Batcave, all kinds of things.
     
  2. Desensitized

    Desensitized Old School!

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    The villain winning could be an interesting concept, and sometimes I root for the villain if they're a compelling enough character, but my favorite ending is when nobody wins. Because that scenario is usually the least likely to happen, and usually adds to the characters' development.
     
  3. Sage Shinigami

    Sage Shinigami Active Member

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    Since its up here and my opinion will naturally go against the grain: A real villain is someone who's less conflicted and just plain evil. In which case, if he wins (or continues to win or whatever) he'll eventually lead to the downfall of the planet. (Or universe, depending on the scale.) That's just...depressing. And a bit lame. Case in point...

    If I cared about realism, I'd close the books and turn off the TV and go out into the real world. There's not so much in the way of polarizing forces of good and evil here and the real world has worked out some kind of strange balance where the bad guys can win (sometimes) without the universe collapsing in on itself. :p


    The closest thing to the villain winning is what they call a "pyrrhic(sp) victory". Where the Hero wins but the cost is exceedingly great. The best example of this that I can easily recall (and actually enjoyed the story) is Kamen Rider Blade. Yes, yes it can seem silly but if you watch the story and think about it...at the end the bad guys won and the Earth is SCREWED. (That doesn't sit right with me and in my head I've changed the ending, but hey its an example.)

    There. My ten cents. :)
     
  4. Caswin

    Caswin Active Member

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    Twin Peaks, Strip Mall, Silver Surfer, Mortal Kombat: Conquest, Spider-Man Unlimited, ReBoot, Blake's 7...

    Don't you just love unresolved cliffhangers?
     
  5. SkullRing

    SkullRing Member

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    Didn't the villain win at the end of Avatar Season 2 and at the end of Code Lyoko Season 3?
     
  6. Ben

    Ben Wise Fool
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    The villain wins in 1984, one of the greatest pieces of fiction ever written. Ditto Brazil. The key is to keep the reader guessing, right up until the end, then make the villain's victory truly meaningful, not arbitrary.
     
  7. darkdetective

    darkdetective Former TZ Reporter/Reviewer

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    Dr. Horrible won. Check out the video.
     
  8. Duskbyday

    Duskbyday Lord of the shadows

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    You could do a comic series where the protagonist is defeated and how the world is changed dramatically because of him giving up (or dieing) and the villain leaving a mark on history. His mark could be for the better or the worse?
     
  9. darkdetective

    darkdetective Former TZ Reporter/Reviewer

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    You mean Superman: Red Son.
     
  10. Prof. Mecavio

    Prof. Mecavio The New No.2

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    The same thing happens in "Animal Farm", also by Orwell.

    Not sure if it counts but in Shakespeare's "Othello", Iago does get his just desserts in the end, but before that he has managed to ruin the lives of all the other characters in the play and that's a small victory, right?

    There's also the "Fantomas" novels, however, since Fantomas never succeeded in killing Juve and Fandor (even though he came very close) and they never managed to capture Fantomas, I guess their battles usually ended in a draw. Although, come to think of it, considering that Fantomas always got away to plot, kill and steal another day, I'd have to say that he was closer to victory than the forces of good.
     
  11. Horrorificus

    Horrorificus Horror and Cuteness incarnate

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    How about this...

    After a long battle, our likable hero has been killed by our unlikeable villain, but then, the results of the villain's choices make the world better than anything that the hero could have accomplished.I used this in a star wars fic, and it worked really well, really made my readers think.
     
  12. Radical Raven

    Radical Raven Bow bow bow, bow bow bow...

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    Well, Is the question "How can I make a story where the villain wins" ot "How can I make a good story where the villain wins" cause with the first thing, it's really easy:D .

    The second one is more difficult. Political allegories like 1984 and Animal Farm work, because they do not really exist to tell stories, but to prove a point (thats not criticism, by the way, just an observation.)

    I read a fictional story set in the Star Wars universe once, where at the end all the good characters were dead. But I still enjoyed it, because-i think- the hero had a good run. He drove the villain crazy and almost killed him twice, so when the villain (Darth Maul, by the by) finally caught up with him, it wasn't really as upsetting as it could have been. Maul even realized that this guy was fairly brave/honorable/tough, so granted him a quick death. Thik about something like that...
     
  13. Scirel

    Scirel WHY SO FRIENDSHIP?

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    In Bionicle, which recently wrapped up a nine year saga, the ultimate villain, Makuta Teridax, Killed the rest of his species(the only ones(only 8) who could match him in power, and had conned into working for him), fooled several heroes into aiding him along the way, and faked his death several times.

    Just when the heroes think they've re-awakened their god, Makuta re-arranges the freaking stars in the shape of his face, and basically tells everyone they're about to enter an eternal era of pain and suffering.

    The best part is that the heroes had helped him do think by trying to re-awaken their god, who was dead for a short period(but returned to life, still asleep), and makuta had separated his spirit form his body. makuta entered the god(Mata Nui)'s body, and waited for the toa to re-awaken him.

    The Irony is if that the toa had failed, Makuta would have died. But also, their universe would soon fall apart because the god would have died once more due to the spell Makuta put him under.

    In short, the good guys are screwed, and makuta sealed the God's soul in a mask and sent it hurtling into another dimension.
     

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