The villian...wins?

Discussion in 'Story Board Workshops' started by Tenku, May 8, 2006.

  1. Tenku

    Tenku D-don't come any closer!

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    I've been thinking about this for about half a day: What if the villian wins? Now granted, I know that the hero wins every fight or variation of thereof, learns a lesson, blah, blah, blah, everyone celebrates, the villian dies or gets so humiliated. Sometimes, I wish that there wasn't so much of that. There has to be the other side of the story, or a alternate universe that the hero dies and the villian gets everything that he/she has gets everything that they desired...

    Which brings me to a question. Suggestions on how to pull this off?
     
  2. percguy89

    percguy89 Things Change

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    i am very tired of the good guy winning everytime, but im afraid its impossible, unless of course the bad guy is the main character....

    ive been trying to formulate exactly how to pull off a villain win without short-changing the reader, but i still havent come up with an effective way.

    i mean, in othello, the bad guy wins (in that basically everyone but him dies), but he wins and realizes the errors of his way, and regretsw it.

    so maybe, the key is winning at a great price....

    maybe not.

    just a suggestion from some guy.

    though be sure to let me know if you come up with a really good way of doing it...

    peace out
     
  3. Matt A

    Matt A Smile. Or Else.

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    As Brent said, I suppose the best way of doing it is with a tragedy. Having the hero go through so much only to lose right at the end is something of anti-climax, so having this defeat be more inevitable should off-set this. A tragedy is more of a "hero's downward spiral" thing than a "hero's struggle against the universe" thing, so a downer ending is par for the course in this genre.;)

    Hope that helps.

    -Matt A-
     
  4. Xerroo

    Xerroo Megas Fan

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    I did one episode of Megas XLR where the villian wins (The Dukes of Megas) but in the end has no effect on the hero's whatsoever...well except for maybe Coop losing a penny but that's it.

    Try something like that where even though the villian wins, the end result has no negitive impact on the heroes.
     
  5. Rover_Wow

    Rover_Wow Active Member

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    (Whistles, points at PPG's "Him Diddle Diddle")
     
  6. nld200xyz

    nld200xyz Member

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    I've seen the villain win a few times, but yeah, I'd like to see villains win more often but don't have any impact on the characters. Like... Mon Colle Knights! The rare times when Eccentro wins, nothing bad really happens. He gets a monster item, that's it. So what? Nothing bad happened. Now, Bomberman Jetterz is what got me down when White Bomber lost. We had to wait three *******ed episodes for him to get over it and rejoin the Jetterz! All in all, that did make the series interesting.
     
  7. Xerroo

    Xerroo Megas Fan

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    Yeah...Episodes where the villian wins and the result has no negitive impact on the heros whatsoever is good to use.
     
  8. Youko Recca

    Youko Recca Retired

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    But why do that at all though? If the result of the villain's plan coming to fold doesn't effect the hero, then why do it at all? Is that possible?
     
  9. The Guitar Slayer

    The Guitar Slayer 1965 to Eternity

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    Well, Star Wars did this. The Empire won in Episode Three. Good guys all lost and are dead except for Obi-Wan and Yoda (I'm not spoiling anything, since we know this at the start of Ep 4).

    What happened there was that Anakin was to bring balance to the force. And he did -- many years without Sith, then many years without Jedi. It's prophetic.

    In order to make this work (i.e., no hatemail), you have to be able to make the villain likeable in some fashion. You have to present him or her as a deep character, rather than a cardboard cut out that standsi in the way of truth, justice, etc. They have to have an equal or better reason to win than the good guy.

    If you do just take a typical action movie (i.e., cardboard cut out) and just change the ending, then you have to be willing to either set up a sequel where everything is righted or just kill any good guys off then and there. Bad guys win for a time or bad guys win, period. You could consider having the big bad shark transform into little sharks and eat themselves; the bad guys get greedy and try to bump each other off. The good guys lose, but the bad guys don't win in the long run.

    You could also go the Star Trek II route. In that, Khan is defeated, but Mr. Spock is killed saving the Enterprise. Good guys, but with a heavy, heavy cost.
     
  10. percguy89

    percguy89 Things Change

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    honestly, i think if you make it so people cheer more for the villain than for the hero, it works really well.

    not to say its a bad show, or to start any spam, but Ben 10 to me is a good example.

    that guy is so ****ing annoying i keep rooting for the bad guy to win.

    unfortunately, the writers of that show probably didn't mean for the audience to root for the bad guy, but i think you catch my drift.

    annoying/crappy heroes + Cool/ interesting villains + bad guy winning = :D
     
  11. Tenku

    Tenku D-don't come any closer!

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    Well, there was a once-act western play I had to do in Creative Writing.

    There was a drifter in a bar, and the big guy of the town comes into the bar, and immediately pegs the drifter as a criminal because the bar is like the meeting place of the town, everyone knows everyone, etc. Beer is spilt, and the guy challenges the drifter at noon.

    It comes, and the guy is talking junk; the drifter kills the guy, and everyone is shocked. The bartender runs up to him, asking about him. Turns out the drifter was a killer, and the big guy was actually the sheriff.

    The way I made it was that the sherriff was corrupt and evil, and the drifter was innocent, but it was just switched. You didn't know until the drifter says it at the very end.

    I wish I could've saved it, as I kinda suck explaining it. :sweat:
     
  12. Eddie G.

    Eddie G. Former Wolf/Writer.

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    I disagree with the villian being the protagonist being the only way to have the bad guy win. The truth of the matter is that in the real world the good guys don't actually win. It's how the world works and people who fight for freedom and the rights of everyone usually end up being called naive at best and nailed to something at worst.

    I also think The Simpsons did a good job with the good guy losing. I remember on one of the commentaries they were saying how in a lot of the episodes of The Simpsons, the protagonist doesn't win or get what they wanted. The point being that life sucks and you'll most likely fail at everything you try to do, but that's okay. Even if Homer gets screwed over in the end, it's okay because he still gets to go home to Marge.

    The idea that to tell a story about a good person who does the right thing has to end with him overcoming and blah-blah-blah is just silly and unrealistic.
     
    #12 Eddie G., Jun 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2006
  13. Captain Zechs

    Captain Zechs Active Member

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    ...Well seeing how I do this a lot of the time, cause I dont like hero's winning, I suggest to firstly, make him the main character, make his/her actions seem right to them, and then go with the flow. Now, I do not always do it like this, because this is a basic start but it will give you ideas, mainly, just let your mind take control, trust me, it can do wonders ;).
     
  14. Wanted

    Wanted Toonmaster

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    Interesting. I'm currently writing a hero/villain story, and I've also come into a number of queries.

    But, what if the villain wins? How do you go about doing that? For one thing, make the hero incompetent. What if the hero knows nothing about how to save the day? What if the villain is much stronger than the hero?
     
  15. The Spirit

    The Spirit denny colt

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    I'm not a writer but this topic has me interested.

    I think truly the villian can't ever truly win but some ocassions the villian has won and then the hero has to set things right.

    The alternate universe stories are like that.

    Captian Kirk of the Mirror universe was evil and had won until our Kirk defeated him.

    The Justice Lords had won in "A Better World" until the Justice League set it right.

    Lex Luthor had won in "Brave New Metroplis" until Superman made it right.

    A well known comic artist once said that he hated the super villian comics of the 70's because the villian had to win to make the comic work, and it didn't. You want to see good triumph and evil lose, noone is rooting for Hitler.
     
  16. SilentBat18

    SilentBat18 Hmm, so, yeah

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    i dunno, this is just me speaking but letting the villain win, i kinda like that idea. its daring, challenging, and would be extremely interesting if pulled off properly. I mean as much as i love Batman and the hero thing, i would looooove to see some tragedy and the villain winning in the end. man, that would be so awesome. I mean hero winning- villain losing thing kinda gets old after a while. but letting villain win, now there's a change. i wonder if i could pull that off :shrug:

    naaaaah, i'm not that good of a writer.... yet....
     
  17. The Spirit

    The Spirit denny colt

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    Well in the stories i mentioned the Villian had won, but the hero set it right.
     
  18. Scorpio_G

    Scorpio_G I dont look like that, really

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    Well if we look in actual history we see where the good guy loses or everyone loses. If you look into WWI the only reason Germany lost so much was because of an agreement between England and other European countries as well as the US. I think it was the Ottoman Empire that was responsible for the war to start to begin with. And actually, the war stopped when both sides called a 'truce' to stop the war. So in a sense the good guys, mostly England and the US lost lives from the war and from the Flu Epidemic and the bad guys, if you view their point of view, the good guys (Germany), lost economic and social power.

    But enough history babble. :sweat:

    Even in today's stories you can find good guys still losing. So experiment. ;)
     
  19. JazzyChick

    JazzyChick Bass players are misunderstood

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    Well, i think the best example ever of the villan winning is in George Orwell's book (gosh i hope i spelled his name right...) 1984. (If you haven't read the book, then don't read the next part 'cause its an amazing book and everyone should read it.)

    The basic story is that the main character rebells against the almost omnipitotent (i know i spelled that wrong) government "Big Brother" and then in the end, he betrays his girlfriend and submits to the government. great ending (scarcasm intended). but the thing is, that it fit because of what the book was about. sure it was depressing, but it worked really well.

    Anyway, i think you can pull that off with some stories. If its fanfiction, then i think the villian can only win temporarily, but they can still get away in the end or whatever. it just has to be done right.
     
  20. Arrakhat

    Arrakhat Trust me, I'm a doctor

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    Watch Apokalips...Now! pts 1 and 2, from Superman the Animated Series. Superman survives, but in the end it is Darkseid who has the last laugh.
     

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