1. We are looking for a volunteer to help out with entering the DC and Marvel comics solicitations. If you are interested, please contact Harley.
    Dismiss Notice

The Official "Watchmen" Movie News & Discussion Thread (Possible Spoilers)

Discussion in 'DC Live-Action Movies and Television' started by William C. Maune, Jul 23, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure. I'd never say something like "i hate this book ergo you have to hate it also!" I just thought i'd give my 2 cents on the subject. I never meant to be hostile. I don't remember personally attacking anyone. I gave my reasons for not liking what i've read and what i've seen. I think an opposing point of view, so long as it's civil, can be fine in a forum thread.
     
  2. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't realize it until after i had posted it. It's the first thought that came into my head, but i still think it's a valid and important point. I just didn't want to take it any further than that.
     
  3. Mikintosh

    Mikintosh Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think I second the "moron" judgement. Only the Calvinist think that little of people; you can't generalize all religions like that.
     
  4. Hanshotfirst1138

    Hanshotfirst1138 Singing drunken lullabies

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,133
    Likes Received:
    17
    Define "philosophically corrupt."

    That's not what Watchmen is about. That's never what it was intended to be about. That's never what it claimed to be about. If you don't like that, then that's fine. But you're criticizing something that you haven't read for not being what you want it to be when that's not what it was ever intended to be in the first place. There are thousands of comics about that topic. Go read one of them.
     
  5. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    And your comment is juvenile. Instead of engaging me in intelligent debate, you fling insults.
     
  6. peacebyanymeans

    peacebyanymeans HORRIBLE FOR EVERYONE

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sure, from someone who has read the book.

    You can have your opinion without reading the book, just don't expect people to take you seriously.
     
  7. Mikintosh

    Mikintosh Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sorry, but intelligent debate doesn't mean you denigrating a writer's works based on his religion...not to mention that you don't even seen to know what Alan Moore's religion is. Actually, I agree with you completely on your take of Watchmen (most of Moore's works are far too cynical for my taste), but you seem to have reached that conclusion in the most ass way possible.
     
  8. peacebyanymeans

    peacebyanymeans HORRIBLE FOR EVERYONE

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, juvenile is judging something without reading it.

     
    #488 peacebyanymeans, Jan 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2009
  9. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    The comedian is cynical about human nature.
    dr. manhattan looks down on people which isn't surprising considering he's a god.
    Rorshach is the product of a physically abusive prostitute. He writes a journal documenting what he found, but in all likelyhood wouldn't be believed as his mental illness is well known(perception is what matters regardless of the truth) He's the one guy that stands up for truth and ends up dead because of it.
    The villain of the story basically gets his wish.
    People are in iminant danger of destroying themselves through nuclear war.

    Moore's view of Ayn Rand's Objectivism are so despicable that it's almost beyond words.

    His view of humanity is that we're evil by nature and that if lying gets us world peace then it's allowable.

    The whole story reaks of moral greyness.
     
  10. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    I took nothing out of context. you don't need to read an entire work to be able to comment on it. Even if you do, you can still reach a completely wrong conclusion.
     
  11. Ragebot

    Ragebot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,296
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wow. You're just digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole here. Name me one superhero, ever, who hasn't had elements of moral greyness in their decade-long histories.

    Oh, wait. I know: The Power Rangers. :shrug:
     
  12. Hanshotfirst1138

    Hanshotfirst1138 Singing drunken lullabies

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,133
    Likes Received:
    17
    I know lots of people who are. Sometimes I am. Lots of great writers and thinkers were. I don't agree with it, but so what?

    Yes, that's the way that the character behaves. He's a fiction character. So what?

    Again, how is this "philosophically corrupt?" Dark? OK? Depressing? OK. Maybe even nihilistic. OK. But that doesn't mean that this book is something evil. It's a work of fiction.

    Again, and? Bad things happen often in real life.

    That's been true every since the advent of nuclear power.

    So he has a cynical philosophy. Big deal. Lots of people do. What difference does that make? I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't fit the story that he's trying to tell. I don't have the same worldview. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate his complex plotting narrative deconstruction, strong characterization, or just plain good storytelling. You dislike Watchmen (which you haven't read) because you disagree with it.

    Again, so? Lots of people thought so and still do.

    Really? You think that that's what the end of the book is saying? I think that it shows an act of evil in an attempt to do good. I don't think that Moore necessarily believes exactly the same thing as his characters. Just because characters in a book do something doesn't necessarily mean that the author displays himself that way. Just because the persona that Johnathan Swift's person in "A Modest Proposal" suggests infanticide and cannibalism doesn't mean that that's what the author actually thinks.

    I think that that's the point

    Forgive me for being blunt, I'm trying harder than you can possibly know to be mature, but who exactly are you to decide what the right or wrong conclusions are?
     
    #492 Hanshotfirst1138, Jan 30, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2009
  13. HG Revolution

    HG Revolution Truth (with crazy opinions!)

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    11,422
    Likes Received:
    0
    So essentially, if someone has a different philosophy on life than you and Ayn Rand, they're "despicable"?

    Keep in mind I disagree with Moore on a lot of things (for one thing, I do not expect the Watchmen movie to be the most horrendous catastrophe to hit the earth, which for some reason Moore does), but I'm able to disagree with him and still appreciate his excellent writing, interesting characters, and the occasional solid point he has to make.
     
  14. Nightwing

    Nightwing WF Old Man

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Messages:
    5,596
    Likes Received:
    0
    Take this as a general poke, because I don't like where this thread is going. Please, straighten up and respect each other or we can close the thread and issue some nice strong warnings.

    News threads can wander into a lot of places which is cool as long as they're near or on topic. Attackers will not be tolerated.


    (words to post by)
     
  15. BatKid

    BatKid The True Batman

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    3,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/how-zack-snyder-just-barely-got-watchmen-to-the-screen/
     
  16. J'onn J'onzz

    J'onn J'onzz Best Male Member '08

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,529
    Likes Received:
    2
    How can you call it philosophically corrupt? You haven't read the book. You read a one and a half page synopsis. It is a graphic novel of nearly three hundred pages, featuring numerous layers of character. This disappoints you, from what I gather (I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude here, I'm simply stating what I understand your point to be), as you seem to think that heroes should be two dimensional and devoid of any real character except the desire to do good. I'm sorry, but that's NOT human nature. People aren't perfect. This may be a cynical view, in your opinion, but it's a realistic view. Sometimes reality is cynical. The book presents deep, three-dimensional characters. Moral shades of grey are omnipotent. You can say that some people are pure evil, and some people are pure good, and that's all there is to it, or you can examine the reasons people become the way they are, and these people's character, evaluating both the good and the bad. This is something the Watchmen does. You can respond to this post disagreeing with me; that's fine, I don't consider my opinion the end all be all of opinions, and I accept that there are other opinions than my own, but you've actually read my post, and thus are informed enough to offer a legitimate opinion on it, something I'd ask you to do before you further comment on the Watchmen.
     
  17. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    You seem to think that just because a lot of people do or believe something that it's okay. So, it's just a numbers game to you?

    I never attacked a particular religion. I criticized religion as a whole.

    There are a lot of peices of work that have moral greyness contained in the narrative as it's a concept that permeates this and other cultures, but i don't think i've read anything that has had it at it's very core like this. I certainly don't enjoy .

    You don't need to read an entire work to be able to comment on it if the view is non controversial. I don't need to have read Mein Kampf to know what it contains in its essence. If i have missed anything other than the details let me know. So far i think i've hit it pretty much on the head.

    I'm not here to denigrate anyone. Feel free to enjoy it, but i'm giving my views on the subject. I realize that what art we enjoy can go to the core of who we are as individuals. The mere fact that i have hit a nerve just confims this point. However, i think it's best if we all just take a step away from the computer and note type something out of anger. No need to be defensive.

    I didn't say moore is despicable, but his views on objectivism are completely without off base.

    My problem is not that 1 or 2 characters are cynical about human nature, but that everyone or nearly everyone in the book is.

    Evidence and reality are the ultimate arbiters of right and wrong conclusions. I'm a person that looks for the truth. I'm open to opinions so long as there is a basis in reality. That's why i feel that i can say that some conclusions are wrong. For instance i've read the keynesian analysis for the great depression, but his conclusions aren't based on fact, he sets up intellectual strawmen, and many of his arguments are circular. that's why i can say for certain that his conclusions are wrong.

    I didn't pass judgment on anyone here for liking it. I didn't call anyone names. I made my view known. I said that the book is bad, not those who choose to read it. The only thing i said to that effect is that i don't get the hype.
     
  18. Hobbes829

    Hobbes829 The Bad Guy

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually it's 1 page per chapter. I never said that i liked 2-d characters. That would be a misinterpretation. I like heroes that have internal conflicts, but when the chips are down, they make the right choice. One of my favorite characters is Spike from Buffy. Lord knows he's not perfect, but he struggles to become good, and despite his nature (remember that he's a demon) becomes a hero by the end. Goody goodies are fine in small doses. The watchmen just seem miserable, and don't do the right thing at the end (not in my view anyway). Now, 1 thing that i am missing that might be of interest is what makes these guys tick. Why do they fight for their view of justice? What is that view? How did they reach that? Those are interesting questions, but thus far i see know reason for me to read the entire thing. I've asked in several posts for someone to correct me if i'm wrong about any of the specifics, and so far none of you have which leads me to believe that i've got a good understanding of the plot.
     
  19. Hanshotfirst1138

    Hanshotfirst1138 Singing drunken lullabies

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Messages:
    15,133
    Likes Received:
    17
    Um, no. I never said that anything was "okay." What exactly are you saying was "wrong" to begin with? We're talking about a work of fiction, not an act of some sort of significance that affects people's lives. We are talking about a comic book. A. Comic. Book. About. Superheroes. We're not solving world hunger, and I don't much appreciate that character assassination :p. So you know what, Nightwing is right. This could get ugly, so I'd better back out. I shouldn't have even posted here in the first place. We can just agree to disagree. Sayonara.
     
  20. Ducard

    Ducard Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Messages:
    1,521
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed, no need there's for rashness. Take a big calm breath everyone. :)

    Hobbes- I'm actually fairly sympathetic to your viewpoint. Nowadays I usually can't stand the emphasis on moral greyness in a lot of entertainment-- it used to be a way to break characters from two dimensional/simplistic characterization but has since become lazy crutch and a path to muddied meaninglessness. Watchmen though is truly layered in its approach and leaves much speculation and judgment to the audience. Although:

    That's not what it says at all. That may be the view of many of the characters, but not necessarily that of the author. If you were familiar with the material then I don't think you could say that Moore presented the ending as justifiable. Look up the scene where the antagonist casually murders his servants like toys, all the while regarding life as a play thing; He's just not meant to be a sympathetic person. Also note that
    And keep in mind that the entire Black Freighter storyline is supposed to parallel the
    of the antagonist.

    The final scene of the book basically says, "Ok, that scheme didn't work out so well after all. Where do we go from here? What do you think, Audience?"
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • Find Toonzone on Facebook

  • Toonzone News

  • Site Updates

    Upcoming Premieres

  • Toonzone Fan Sites


Tac Anti Spam from Surrey Forum