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"The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" News & Discussion Thread, Part 3 (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by James Harvey, Jan 15, 2011.

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  1. Aquaman OS

    Aquaman OS Member

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    The funny thing is that unlike some other characters with radically different designs in Ultimate Marvel, Cap's outfit is exactly the same, except for the Wing tips. Well in the modern time period. During WWII flashbacks he has a kind of infantry outfit in his later costumes colors on, with his original triangular shield (but I always personally liked that outfit).

    As for the other guys, they're just getting an update to their current regular Marvel verse designs. Thor's had that extra silver plating ever since he came back after being inactive for awhile, and Iron Man's armor is being updated to look like his current ones.
     
  2. Munkiman

    Munkiman Hail Hydra.

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    The DVD menus look pretty cool! I like the backgrounds matched with the characters, and how Wasp has the statue of liberty.

    Thor's is his current costume, but Iron Man's triangle was actually changed back to a circle to fit with the movie, funnily enough.

    I'm hoping that Iron Man and Cap are only temporarily going through those costume changes, I prefer their current models.
     
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Active Member

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    I'm cool with everyone's looks... except Hulk.
    I love the new Thor look. It was one of my favorite redesigns in the comics.

    But HULK! Needs ripped pants. The purple shorts are straight out of Ang Lee's crapfest of a film.

    Hulk had this perfect '82 look going on. And they're ruining it.

    I'm totally fine with the Ultimate style costume for Captain America. I don't see what the problem is.


    I've always loved the idea of Black Panther with the cape. My favorite look for him. I hope they give him the cape too.
     
  4. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I think the problem is that some people don't like the characterizations of the Ultimate comics specifically Cap's. Personally I hate how the costume looks without the wings on the cowl.
     
  5. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Which one?

    "Captain [bleep]", when Mark Millar was writing the original series? Yeah, not so much; putting someone in a Captain America suit doesn't make him Captain America. Some writers (and fans) just don't get that the essential core of Captain America as a concept and character is not how many bad guys he can take out with his shield, but his embodiment of the values of freedom, power with restraint, fighting spirit, and so forth. This is the reason why Captain America should not carry a firearm; he's not the Punisher with a better costume.

    Subsequent writers made the character more MU616-like; but the damage was done for many people

    Now, the "Ultimate Captain America" most people are familiar with is, frankly, the one from the "Ultimate Avengers" OAVs from Lionsgate, who is more like how the character should have been written for the Ultimates comic. :D

    Mod Note: Asterisks or not, let's please watch the language.
     
  6. suss2it

    suss2it Active Member

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    Wait a second, why shouldn't he carry a firearm? He's a super soldier. And if he's the embodiment of the values of freedom, what about the right to bear arms?

    Considering the Ultimate universe is a different take on the characters I see no need to make them carbon copies of the originals.
     
  7. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    The Shield isn't an "arms"? )

    During a time of war (like, the war for which he's created), I have no problem with Captain America using Deadly Force; however, during peacetime, against civilian criminals, I would expect him to not start a fight with lethal force.

    I want my heroes to be heroic - in general, that means they don't kill. if I want to see wholesale slaughter of the "bad guys" in an indiscriminate manner, I'll read the Punisher, which is what he does.

    I both agree and disagree. The Ultimate was intended to be a reboot, as a "jumping on point" without the continuity baggage of MU616, using the same thematic characters. For example, the FF was Reed, Sue, Johnny, and Ben, not John, Paul, George, and Ringo. The Ultimate versions were supposed to be recognizable and identifiable as the heroes, not radically different "What If" versions ("There's an App for that!").

    Ultimately, the Ultimate experiment failed, partially because most of the readership didn't WANT different personalities; they wanted the MU616 versions, and after a few years over overly complex storytelling, the titles themselves were just as mired in their own continuity. It has its own audience, but it didn't solve the problem is was intended to fix.

    Captain America, as a character, started out as a soldier, but after waking up from his VanWinklian nap, evolved from "soldier" to "law enforcement"; I don't necessarily think its either a good thing or a bad thing, but that is the character; its like if the new Star Trek franchise made Kirk timid and respectful of authority, or monogamous (*grins*), he'd pretty much cease to be the Shatnerian Kirk of the TOS. He'd be a different character entirely, with the only similarity being the name.

    There is a chasm-leap of difference between "variations of interpretation" of a character, and "so different that its not the same character"; Steve Rogers using lethal force as anything but an (no pun intended) ultimate last resort is the latter and not the former.
     
  8. suss2it

    suss2it Active Member

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    Fighting terrorists, is modern warfare, so according to your logic he'd still use deadly force.

    Heroic doesn't mean that you don't kill people. I'm not sure why you're quoting "bad guys" as if they aren't actually bad guys. The people Ultimate Cap killed were genuinely awful people.

    It wasn't a reboot, since the original is still around. They are recognizable as heroes, since you know they continuously save the day.

    It didn't fail, since the comics still sell well enough, and because the first two Ultimates series were met with critical acclaim. And 10 year continuity isn't nearly as confusing and inaccessible as 60 years worth.

    How isn't Ult. Cap law enforcement?

    I think it's the former. A soldier who fought in WWII using lethal force isn't that weird. If anything it's kinda odd how 616 Cap is apparently so against it.
     
  9. JLU Dude

    JLU Dude Active Member

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    Well, the Mark VI armor in Iron Man 2 did sport the triangle chestpiece, so there is a basis here.
     
  10. M.O.D.O.K.

    M.O.D.O.K. Scientist Supreme
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  11. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    If you want to go deeper into the literary, political, and legal aspects of this, please ping me in PM or email; I'm not adverse to discussing at length, but too many threads recently have had to be warned away. The Mods are great about giving us latitude, and I don't want to abuse it!

    I also deleted my (long) response that was tangentally on-topic; its not fair to claim the last word by responding at length and then saying "lets take it off-line" *grins*
     
    #491 Medinnus, Apr 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2011
  12. Aquaman OS

    Aquaman OS Member

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    I'd just like to point out that Cap doesn't have a "no guns" policy. He is in fact an excellent marksman with them as he's had military training of course, and has used guns quite a few times during his long career.

    In fact he started out using a sidearm as a stardard weapon alongside his original shield, but once he got his trademark shield and worked out how to throw it so well, a gun became redundant when the shield was just as good a projectile and had more uses as well.

    Thus he doesn't carry guns because they are extra weight he doesn't need.
     
  13. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Oh? Citation please?

    I know of one instance where he used an uzi, and another in which he laid down covering fire. Thats two instances in over a thousand comics, counting Avengers and Invaders.

    In the LS "Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty" by Fabien Nicieza, it was established that he was a hopeless marksman. This has not been contradicted in MU 616 continuity.

    EDIT - Not including the absolutely horrible Captain America movie serial, in which CA was Grant Gardner, DA - no wings, no shield, but had a 45 caliber sidearm. Watch it if you daaaaaaaare! *grins*
     
  14. Aquaman OS

    Aquaman OS Member

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    I only have the Marvel Wiki at the moment which might not be considered official enough. It says he's a skilled marksman, and since Cap's generally portrayed as being good at nearly every technical skill I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

    But it is established that he used a gun in his early WWII appearances before getting the shield. And the fact that he's been shown using them other times like you've said means he will use them if he needs to. So he isn't totally against using guns as a moral thing. He just feels more comfortable with his shield.

    Furthermore, I don't think the Marvel heroes have a strict no killing ever policy either. They don't kill criminals or super villians and arrest them only because it's the law not to be judge jury and executioner. So they arrest them, no matter how often they escape But beyond that they killed an almost absurd number of Skrulls during SI and have other times left supposed characters for death in large explosions and the like and have probably killed nameless mooks, even if they weren't aiming too. And against really powerful guys I don't think they're exactly holding back. They just don't finish them off once defeated and no longer a threat. That's a job for the courts.

    Which is the friction between other heroes and the Punisher. It's not that the Punisher kills exactly, but that he kills in cold blood, indescriminately and gives no compromise or forgiveness. You've committed a crime in the past? He'll walk up and shoot you. Even if you're helpless at the moment, even if you don't even know he's there, even if you've been a good and moral person since then. He's out for blood, not for justice.
     
  15. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Dude, with all due respect, he never used a gun in WWII - he used the triangular shield, not a firearm. See the aforementioned "CA: Sentinel of Liberty" for why.

    Part of the basis of James Barnes' recent retconn in recent years has been the fact that Bucky used the grenades and machine guns (Thompson 45 with a drum, accept no substitutes!), not Captain America. Not even in the non-canon Golden Age did he use a gun (I have the Golden Age issues on microfiche).

    He used the uzi once to prevent an Ultimatum terrorist from using his uzi on hostages. He held a press conference afterwards to apologize for having failed in his mission; he viewed having to have used the uzi as a failure.

    The run in volume 4 where he lays down covering fire is part of the run that has been declared non-canon, because so much of the pre-Kirkman Marvel Knights so egregiously violated MU616 continuity. When it was a Marvel Knights book, like all the other Marvel Knights books, being part of MU 616 was considered 'optional' (like the Nick Fury LS).

    They do - else Iron Man's repulsors would be set to an intensity that would kill. Thor would fry HYDRA agents by the dozen. Hawkeye wouldn't bother with bolo arrows. This is the case not only in the mainstream MU, but in AEMH even moreso; some of the heroes have less reluctance than others, but NONE of them use lethal force as a first resort; it remains their last resort.

    Also, in the AEMH, the Avengers have no official legal status yet; they are barely-tolerated (by Fury, anyways - don't ask Thunderbolt Ross for HIS opinion!). There is no Avengers Clearance or Champion status as in the maintream MU.

    Now lets try and keep this discussion relevant to AEMH, yes?
     
  16. Aquaman OS

    Aquaman OS Member

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    I don't particularly agree, but I was just trying to chime in with what I thought was a point, but apparantly my memory is incorrect. I didn't really want to start a debate on this. One day I swear I'll get a simple response of "hmm maybe" from someone on a forum.

    But there's nothing really relevant to talk about with AEMH at the moment due to the hiatus and spoiler evasion and all, so I guess I'm out for now.
     
  17. Manhunter

    Manhunter Super-Tech Cat Ninja Guy

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    Actually, Hulk alternately wore purple shorts in the comics.
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Active Member

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    Not a lot.
    And it certainly isn't what he's famous for wearing.

    He also wore a Wrestling Singlet, and a few other various costumes throughout the years.
    BUT, his most famous and iconic look features the ripped pants.

    Using the fact that he alternately wore purple shorts as justification for his animated design, is like doing a new Justice League show and having Superman appear in his "Superman Red/Superman Blue" design.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Supesredblue.jpg

    Does it have a basis? Sure. Is it a good idea? No.

    That's my view on the matter.
     
  19. ktk

    ktk Member

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    You sure about that?

    Here's just one cover, but there are a few more showing Cap with a gun.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Well, two things:

    1 - GA Cap stories are not canon
    2 - I don't have a spare 5,000 to prove it )
    3 - GA covers were notorious for not actually following content. And note the colors on the shield are wrong, too - who is that impostor? (Jeff Mace? William Naislund?)
    4 - Clearly, at 2AM local time I have lost the ability to count.
     
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