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"The Amazing Spider-Man" Series Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by wonderfly, Nov 10, 2010.

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  1. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    No. The fact that he puts on a mask and does things in his spare time doesn't make him a rapist. While he's having sex with them he's not deceiving them about who he actually is the way Doc Ock in Peter's stolen body would be, because he's always Peter Parker (Spider-Man is a super hero identity, not a real person). That standard would make everyone who doesn't share every detail of their lives a rapist.

    Rape does not always include force, the main factor is often lack of consent or ability to give consent. Some states in fact do have a "rape by deception" law, although New York State's is limited. But then again we don't have a mind swap technology, either. I think if a person actually could steal another person's body and use it to trick someone into having sex with them, the courts would have no problem charging that person with any number of sex crimes, including rape, because obviously the person being tricked isn't in a position to give full consent. And it's a deception that goes beyond simply lying that you're a rock star, you're actually using the form of another person as a criminal tool.

    So, yeah, I still feel pretty comfortable calling Doc Ock a rapist, if he goes through with it.

    I finally put down the eight dollars and I have to say, this was a rather stinky turd of a comic book. The plot jumps all over the place with bad pacing and convenient coincidences and Slott just doesn't seem to get many of the characters, or if he does get them writes them intentionally out of character to force them into the clumsy plot. The one he's always handled worst is J. Jonah Jameson, whom he treats like a broad parody. Would J.J.J. suddenly start loving Spider-Man because he saw him mutilate another man's face. I doubt it, J.J.J. has some ethics and he would probably see it as reinforcement of his hate of Spider-Man. Gargan was poorly written, too. His old beef with J.J.J. would never be enough to make him abandon six million bucks. And Cooper also had to put on the idiot hat to do what she did, Peter gave her proof of who he was and she should have tried to help him.

    Also, if Uncle Ben's intentions were for Peter to give his body, reputation, Avengers priority access, and everything else to an evil sociopath, then Uncle Ben is really stupid. Doc Ock's heel-face turn was the least convincing and most cheesy I've ever seen. He already HAD Peter's memories. How would being reminded of them change his perspective on anything? How would Peter's memories be somehow more convincing than his own life experiences, which shaped him into the evil jerk he is?

    The art was godawful, too. I do not understand what people see in Ramos, his art conveys neither emotion nor action well.
     
    #261 Shawn Hopkins, Dec 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2012
  2. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    If I recall right, Carlie Cooper broke up with Peter after figuring out his double life. Not telling your lover every aspect of your life is one thing ("I never told you that I love John Wayne movies"), but not telling them that you're a vigilante who could put your life in danger just because you're his lover, that's a bit different.

    And I'd like to wait for that before we truly go into this discussion. Right now all I see is a cover of MJ and Spider-Man/Ock kissing, and a bunch of people yelling "RAPE!" Some more context would be nice, is all.
     
  3. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    Yeah, it's not nice because it endangers the other person. If you want to see a realistic take on it, read Kick Ass 2. But it's not relevant at all to what Doc Ock is doing, which is a very different, more evil thing.

    Until he goes through with it, we'll just say he wants to rape MJ. Because that's what it would be. Also, have you read this issue? Because he tries to have sex with MJ in 700 but gets interrupted. He even thinks a gloating "Another victory for the master planner" narration box when it looks like he's sealed the deal and creepily tries to get her to say "Face it Tiger, you've hit the jackpot!" That part really reads like the beginning of a bad porno fanfic.
     
  4. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Nope, I've not read it, was going off of the cover to Superior Spider-Man #2, posted on the last page. I still maintain use of the word "rape" is used too casually in regards to things like this. The definition of rape from the dictionary, which I read on the last page of this thread, it doesn't cover sex by deception. That would make Barney on "How I Met Your Mother" a serial rapist. A man who has a wife in one state, and another wife in a different state - they don't charge him with rape, they charge him with "bigamy". There needs to be a word like that in the law books, but not rape, because I feel that diminishes the violence that accompanies the word "rape". "Fraud" is a much better word, in my opinion.

    The wikipedia entry on "Rape by Deception" doesn't really have much to say, and the Israel case listed is scary precedent. Giving people the power to charge sexual partners with fraud is scary territory that has implications I'm not liking. And I'm not sure I want a comic like Amazing Spider-Man to explore it for a topic.

    But again, get back to me after Doc Ock "seals the deal" with MJ.
     
  5. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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    No. Because "Spider-Man" is not what he was born as. It's Pete under the tights. That's the actual guy. Everybody thinks Doc is Peter right now; none of them would want to get that close to Doc.

    Let me put it in these terms.....you date a girl, you sleep with her, and then later on you find out she was actually Tony Danza wearing prosthetics. Would you feel raped?
     
  6. Wonderwall

    Wonderwall Moderator
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    People argue that he slept with Gwen? I thought that was like well known and his first.
     
  7. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

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    I think it is, but I think the most recent issue has a new roster. Not sure though, and either way, they do have some sort of Spider-Man on the team that isn't the same one as was on the previous Dark Avengers.
     
  8. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Leaving aside the Tony Danza aspect, I'd feel mislead, horrified, or angry, or all of the above, but not raped.

    To reiterate, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a bad thing, but to call it rape diminishes the violent sexual assaults on women.

    Here's an excellent article on the subject, with different opinions on the subject, but I tend to fall in line with this quote from the article:

    But to get to my larger point of concern, there's been a lot of speculating that MJ is going to be raped. And the reasonings all go back to "Well, DC did it to Sue Dibny" and "Marvel messed up Carol Danvers." And I get tired of bashing Marvel for things that haven't even occurred yet. I give Dan Slott a little more credit than that.

    Now I could very well be wrong. But get back to me after it actually occurs.

    Not according to "Sins Past", a storyline in Amazing Spider-Man back around 2004, written by J. Michael Straczynski. In it, we learn that Gwen Stacy secretly had kids (twins) and never told Peter. This was either before they started dating or sometime during their relationship (though it defies logic). Peter tells MJ the kids aren't his because "we never did that" (or he says something like that). Later, we learn they're Norman Osborn's kids. It's just a bad storyline, which I think Marvel is continuing to try and step away from it ever existing.

    But if that's to be believed, Peter and Gwen never had sex. And I don't want this to be a whole topic, but I just don't see how Gwen can be his "first true love" if they never expressed that love sexually. That's part of knowing it's your first true love - this is the person for whom you've been saving yourself. Yes, they can love each other and save that act for marriage, but the way they were written as a couple (especially in flashbacks to them being a couple that were written AFTER Gwen's death), it just seemed like there was something more there then a couple saving themselves for marriage. But I digress...
     
  9. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    That was Mac Gargan (before Venom was confiscated from him) posing as Spider Man in the first roster. In the second line up, that was Apaec - some spider demi god who Osborn drugged.
     
  10. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

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    Yeah, I knew who it was in the first line-up, but I didn't know who the new guy was just something along the lines of that "spider demi god who Osborn drugged" thing.
     
  11. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Ah, got it. Yeah I think the new guy got K.O.'ed by Cap. One of the regular Avengers definitely. lol. Too many spiders. At first I mistook him for that Doppelganger from Maximum Carnage who dropped off the radar for years. Or did? Idk, I forget already. Sort of put it behind me.
     
  12. Moto Pete

    Moto Pete We Bare-ly Pete's

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    This made me cry. Spiderman was the best but now it will be weird. I liked Peter Parker


    Bonus the middles story where he is an ld man telling his great grandson his story was great
     
  13. ShadowGUN

    ShadowGUN YES!YES!YES!

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    [​IMG]

    It appears that for second print cover Marvel doesn't try to hide the ending:sad::ack: .
     
  14. Gold Guy

    Gold Guy Ride On
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    That aside, the art is pretty bad, IMO.
     
  15. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    That's a fun homage, though.
     
  16. Wonder Woman

    Wonder Woman Well-Known Member

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    I really recommend anyone who picked up #700 to pick up the epilogue issue in Avenging Spider-Man #15.1. I think it really plays well and actually really adds to the whole story. I will say it made me more interested in the story than issue #700 actually. It does have me curious since we get little peeks at how Ock will be handling Peter's life for the next year or so. I kinda wish this story was included in #700.

    And that second printing variant is a great cover!
     
  17. W.C.Reaf

    W.C.Reaf Active Member

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    I don't know about that. Since the story arc was about Ock in Spidey's body I think it's just a good homage that fits with the story. It's something they couldn't do before since the solicitations would spoil the story months in advance, which they really didn't want.
     
  18. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    One thing worth thinking about is, can Dr. Octopus actually be redeemed? I don't think so. Not with some quicky brain reprogramming. I know he's now got some connection to memories of how Peter Parker went right, but he's also got a lifetime of personal experience that created a "Peter Parker gone wrong," a scientific genius that took his abilities and smarts and used them for evil.

    He's never paid for any of his many, many crimes, and outside of Osborn he's Peter's most personally toxic, selfish, egotistical, and nasty villain. He basically pulled a "Killing Joke" on Black Cat, viciously beating her nearly to death and having her shot. He's killed several people and also tried to commit mass murder multiple times, only being stopped by Spider-Man. He nearly started a war just to further a scheme to unmask Spider-Man. He actually tried to steal a baby once. He had a plan to kill most of the people on the earth simply to pump up his ego.

    Some writers have tried to soften him over the years by focusing on his obsession with Aunt May or treating him as kind of a sad sack, like the issue where the Hulk trounces him in Vegas. But I though Paul Jenkins had a great answer to that in the Fusion story in his run on Peter Parker: Spider-Man. You see "sad sack" Ock for a while in that, working for Fusion, but that's just a ploy, and he eventually turns on Fusion and reveals himself to be the real dangerous evil mastermind that Peter has to worry about.

    So, if he can't be redeemed, then we've got an Azrael story. He won't be fit to be Spider-Man, so Peter, or maybe someone like 616 Miles Morales, will have to take him down and take the mantle away.
     
  19. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Agreed, agreed, agreed!

    My vote goes to Miguel O'Hara <cough>the first Latino Spider-Man<cough>.
     
  20. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

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    If 616 Miles shows up I'll have to grab that issue, I'm not really a 616 Spidey guy outside of Avengers as Dan Slott is far from my favorite writer but I LOVE Ultimate especially the new series.
     

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