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Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by wonderfly, Nov 10, 2010.
Until you think about this part.
I really like that cover with all the names of the people that worked on ASM making the NY skyline. The other one is cool too with Spidey's eye made out of all those versions of Spider Man, Venom, and everyone in between. The other one stinks though lol but as the song says 2 out of 3 ain't bad
As i mention before, there will be times that Doc Ock won't act the same as Peter/Spidey along with that cover there will be more like those but at the end he will learn some of his mistakes even if it's going to be the hard way to learn.
I think this was a good issue and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I have a feeling this will all be reversed by issue #12 or so of The Superior Spider-Man where somehow comes back as the superior Spider-Man than Doc Ock, but until then this could be an interesting ride. I have been surprised at how intensely some people are taking this story. Do they realize this isn't permanent? And that 'anniversary' issues really have no meaning any more? Same with 'final issues'? Honestly, issue #700 is just another Spider-Man story and it's just a launching point for the next Spider-Man saga. I haven't decided yet if I'm going to stick around but that does seem like a neat idea.
I really liked this story arc and #700 in particular. It was well structured, clearly planned out from beginning to end with some clear set-up for how it'll play out, and everything and everyone was consistently written (unlike the Ultimate Death of story which was the exact opposite).
There were some problems and logic leaps but overall I liked it. It has a lot of story potential and anyone who thinks this is permanent, or that Amazing is over for good, then you don't look at what Marvel does with their comics. I can already see about 20 ways for them to bring back Peter that would make perfect sense from the context of the story. I can also see 20 more that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, because Marvel also likes doing that.
Peter was dying and in his last moment he showed Ock, had him experience it in fact, everything that made him Spider-Man. That's a part of him now and Peter managed to win even if he didn't get his desired outcome. I'm interested to see where this all goes since we've been given a body-swap story where there's actual consequences and no return to the status quo, so far at least, so that's worth giving the new comic a try in my book. I'm more worried about how they'll deal with his advances on MJ. If they have sex then it'll be non-consensual, because he's not who she thinks he is, and therefore rape. That's going to require some very careful writing and I hope Slott can pull it off.
Money is the most important thing and shock stunts sell. Rape hasn't been off that table since Sue Dibny. Don't say I never warned you.
And, so, therefore? I'm not complaining about there possibly being rape (although rape is far to prevalent in comics) it's the fact that they might have Ock sleep with MJ and no one at Marvel considered it to be rape. That is the thing that has me worried. Because if they don't want their Superior Spider-Man to be a rapist they need to be very careful in how they write his relationships.
#700 has been getting a lot of hype, I'm really curious now. I haven't read a Spider-Man comic in ages (Ultimate era, '04 I believe). I'm familiar with some of the events he's been through, but haven't read them. What issues should I read before diving into #700?
Marvel is the company that didn't see a problem with Ms. Marvel being mind-controlled, kidnapped and impregnated by a bad guy, giving birth to his child which magically grew to be an alternate version of that bad guy, and then being taken to an alternate dimension as the lover of that child, with the full consent and cooperation of the Avengers. So, based on historical precedents, I wouldn't be optimistic.
I read 700 and if it was just the Spider-Dreams story I would say it was brilliant end to Amazing Spider-Man but the main story while for awhile was really good went straight downhill when they went the angle of turning Doc Ock into a hero/possible rapist. I also wasn't a big fan of the dumbing down of MJ. Long time ago during the married years she could tell the difference between Chameleon masking around as Peter within five seconds but now cant even tell the difference between an old man bossing her around and calling her woman something Peter never did. I also not a fan of turning Ock into a hero you go out of your way to finally bump Norman as big bad of Spider-Man and make Ock into respectable arch enemy again he's now a dark hero. The story could have been cool if it wasn't so over used now in the other Spider titles. Scarlet Spider a book about a former villain now turned hero Venom Arch enemy to a dark hero Dark Spider-Man on Dark Avengers dont know anything about him but I'm sure its the same thing Dark hero version of Spider-Man. Lets face it peter will get his body back or a clone one Slott didn't bring Jackal back for nothing but they will keep Superior as a satellite title and thats the worse thing we already lost enough great villains either by being taken as Avenger villains or becoming heros and its not like any new villain has taken the rains I dont think the train wreck that was Brand New Day helpe dwith the new villain thing.
Yawn I'll just keep reading Scarlet at least there no potential MJ rape in that title.
You guys realize it's comic book right? If you're going "she's getting rape, his raping her" it sounds like you "want" to see some raping, it didn't come to my mind on that whatsoever which it's ridiculous.
Was gonna mention Madame Web but read that she's in a comatose state.....how convenient, makes you wonder when she wakes up how she will react to the new Spider-Man.
I'm not sure what I said that made it sound like I want her to get raped. Or how bringing up the fact that it'd be rape if Ock sleeps with MJ in Peter's body is me somehow encouraging it. Rape is far too prevalent in comics as a shock tactic and in most cases doesn't actually add anything to the story; even Black Cat had rape added to her backstory by Kevin Smith.
And yes it's a comic, so? Does that mean it's unworthy of discussion? I'm not even getting mad or angry at it, just expressing some worry over what might happen (since nothing’s actually happened yet) if they're a bit careless in how they do this. It's not like I'm sending Dan Slott death threats over the "death" of a fictional character.
Implying that people who notice something icky are perverts who want to see that icky thing is offensive and unfair.
Well I've heard a rumor on the CBR forums that Ock's only gonna be Spidey for 12-15 issues, which would be about somewhere from July to September. Hearing this has made me calm down considerably, so I might pick up the issues since Peter would come back much sooner than I expected.
Well said. There are already enough dark Spider-Men running around the Marvel Universe.
Didn't care for the way #700 ended, and don't plan on buying Superior Spider-Man. Wake me when Peter comes back.
"Rape" is a bit strong of a word, I fear.
It depends on how Doc Ock/Spidey is written. If the memories of Peter are barging into Ock's consciousness, and he's becoming confused about his identity ("I'M Peter Parker, and THAT'S the love of my life!), and then Mary Jane catches him in a vulnerable state, then that's not "rape".
If it's Doc Ock having sex with MJ and leaves the bedroom with a smirk and says "Heh, take that Peter Parker, I just one pwned you!!" then that's deplorable, but still not rape...If that's rape, then how is it any different than numerous comedies (and in real life, I'm sure) where men lie to women about who they really are, to have sex with them, and then leave them. Example: "Yes, YOU are the love of my life who I've waited for!" and then he's gone the next day after getting what he wants. Or "Why yes, I AM a spy, and live a life of danger, and never let anyone get close to me, EXCEPT YOU, the woman of my dreams!" (see Bill Paxton's character in "True Lies").
Definition of rape: " The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse." If MJ's not being forced to have sex, even though she's mislead, then it's not rape.
No, the Spider-Man in Dark Avengers was NOT a hero. Not a dark hero, not an anti-hero, not anything in conjunction with the word "hero".
That was 1980 or 1981, an entirely different era of Marvel Comics. Still a bad story, but I don't think Axel Alonso or Dan Slott would look to that for precedence. I don't think the Ms. Marvel thing ever even gets tossed into the discussions about "women in refrigerators", it's just a bad story from a different era.
The new Dark Avengers or the old Dark Avengers? I haven't read the new one, but yeah, the old one sure wasn't.
I don't read Amazing Spider-Man and from what I've read of Dan Slott's work, he's pretty meh, but I'm interested in where this goes and a friend of mine said he'd give me his Superior Spider-Man #1 digital code so I ordered this along with some other comics I'm following. I won't get to read it until mid next month, but at least I'm getting this pretty cover:
The "old" Dark Avengers. From 2009 (if 2009 is "old). I've not read the new "Dark Avengers" (but I thought that was just a continuation of "Thunderbolts"?)
Um.....let's stop the debate there. Unless you're running for Congress, it's a bad idea to start arguing where the line for a defined rape is.
Fine, though I was more advocating that we scale back the tossing out the word "rape" as it pertains to the discussion here. "Rape" as a word is overused nowadays, and devalues it's meaning (kind of like calling an authority figure you don't like a "Nazi"). Peter Parker has slept with Betty Brant, Carlie Cooper, and (some have argued) with Gwen Stacy, none of whom knew he was Spider-Man at the time. If he didn't tell them that he was Spider-Man, if he mislead them as to his identity, was he raping them?
My point is: let's drop calling Doc Ock a rapist, at least for the time being...