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Discussion in 'Saturday Morning Forever!' started by Rainbow Dash Fan, Jun 12, 2014.
And said guy wanted a ludicrous degree of control on the comic as to derail it.
Well, it's more like they were loosely based on in-game sprites, but I guess that is excuse enough to keep them
Make Sally Acorn join Sonic Boom!
If Ken Pender owns the character, I wouldn't count on that. Anyway, Sonic Boom isn't set in the SatAM continuity, and SB already has Amy, so they don't need Sally.
Because those characters have not only outrgrown their original SatAM roots, but have proven to actually still be popular and well loved by the general community. Even by kids nowadays who probably haven't even seen the original 90's cartoon series still enjoy them based on what they read of them in the comics. And SEGA isn't stupid enough to kill or get rid of beloved well recieved characters that have been part of the continuity for 20 years. Heck they weren't down with that 5 years in the comics run. Ken Penders original plan for Endgame was to actually have Sally die and turn Sonic into a more lone wanderer type hero who would go on his own adventuers without the freedom fighters. Which didn't happen, primarily because of how many people loved Sally and the other members of the FF. thus why they were brought back into the new continuity. But notice that though in core character and roles they're still pretty much the same (which is the thing that makes a great character: if they can stay the same even if their environment changes), but design wise and placement within the world they are different. That is to adjust them to being more like the other sega brand. And these are characters who in this book have been around for nearly two decades of a still ongoing comic: you really think Sega is going to make a new show or bring back SatAM based on that? Sometimes characters find love and placement in one medium much more then they would in any other. I'm sure there are dozens of comic book characters who no matter how loved they are in their own books are only going to be known in them and not appear in say a movie or show and the like. Not everyone is a Superman or Batman that can transcend all media you know.
I didn't say Sonic showing emotions is uncool. I said that's what SEGA executives think. Remember, we're talking about people who aren't basing directions on where to go with the character on what's the best most interesting story or what is the natural direction for the series, but what the supposed people want to see and what makes the most money, and the brand they want the company to have. And part of that is to have Sonic be considered a "cool" character by not being terribly deep and introspective and have a lot of flaws he has to actually work on changing. They want the stories to remain light enough with Sonic so everyone can play the games and they feel that kids won't respond if Sonic spends a lot of time thinking or pondering anything. Really in case you haven't noticed, mascots in general, especially main character mascots, aren't characters you're suppose to relate to, as much as admire or generally appreciate. It's the same reason why we don't have much characterization for the most part with Mickey Mouse or Mario: As Disney and Sega are also careful with their brands and their image and don't want them to seem unappeasing to a mass audience. And with SEGA they still in some aspects want Sonic to remain the sort of rude, filled with attitude and hyper fast mascot from the 90's. Now it does show he cares and will protect more but very rarely do they go deeper with that. And even when they try they usually wind up pulling it back anyway and as a result, hurting the story. See with Sonic 06 or even Sonic: Lost World.
I'm not going to go on a big long tangent on this but... NO. As in the SatAM freedom fighters were NEVER originally part of the games. There's been some debate over whether or not they were supposedly based on sprites from the original genesis titles or from the original British Sonic U.K comic, but the likes of Sally Acorn, Antione, Bunny Rabbot and Rotor Walrus all originated in the creators of the SatAM show and were technically first given life in the Archie comic. But they were never originally part of the games. Just like how Manic and Sonia of Sonic Underground weren't part of the Sonic games or Chris Thorndyke of Sonic X wasn't part of the games or Sticks the Badger wasn't part of original games. Heck the only technical games the Freedom Fighters appeared in was Sonic Spinball which not only happened after their TV/Comic debut, but was a game created by an american company, not the original Sega of Japan. Same goes with Doctor Robotnick's mean bean machine which had characters from the Adventures of Sonic the hedgehog make appearances. Really the SatAM cast was created because the original team wanted to go in a specific different direction with the Sonic license that hadn't been seen before and needed different characters then were available at the time, or even now honestly. Thus crafted different characters. And don't go into the whole "Princess Sally/Amy Rose" debate here as that's a whole other matter entirely. Point is, characters came from a show that's never going to be revived. So either enjoy them in the comic, hold onto your memories of the show, or learn to move onto other characters if you want to enjoy Sonic in different mediums.
i see no point in them rebooting SatAM comics or the show itself, people need get over with classic shows i mean do you really want them come back? we even have Sonic Boom Comics coming we don't need a reboot of Sonic SatAM tbh
Ken Penders didn't create Sally Acorn, so he has no claim on the rights to her. Any of the characters that originated from the DiC cartoons is still 100% owned by Sega.
But yeah, you're correct that Amy in the Boom continuity is pretty much filling the action girl niche that Sally held, so there's no point in having her in Boom.
I won't argue about whether or not Sally would be in Sonic Boom. Because you're a 100% correct: All the SatAM characters are owned by Sega but Sega wants to keep them strictly in the comics and isn't going to put them in other media like new games or TV series. Especially as Boom is clearly about the game characters mixing with entirely new created characters for the show. However, the whole "filling the action girl niche" is more of where I have a problem with. Because on a core character level, Sally is far different then Amy. Even though Amy Rose has gone beyond just being a one note Sonic stalker, she's still a more opinionated, brash, goofy and generally rough type of action girl archetype. Princess Sally on the other hand is still more the cam, collected, reasonable, duty filled and idealist action girl who is far more focused on the mission then most anything else. Who is still portrayed as having a serious relaitonship with Sonic compared to say Amy who is still portrayed as a "Amy loves him but Sonic couldn't care less" sort of thing. Which I'm sure will be played up a lot in Sonic Boom as that is going to be primarily a comedy show. Thus the characters traits are going to be played up for jokes then most anything else. Honestly even if Sega or someone working for the cartoon actually wanted to/were allowed to have Sally in the show, it wouldn't really work as she's not the kind of character who would fit the show they're going for anyway. I guess you could retool the personality a lot, like they did with Robin on Teen Titans Go but... I don't see the point of that at all when you have so many other characters to use or create anyway.
I kinda get sick of the whole 'Sonic can't cry so is bland' complaint. I don't direct crying and angst as being equal to 'depth'. The comics overplay the angst constantly, it doesn't stop most of the characters being blank slates. Emotion and poignancy can do a lot of good but just piling on cheap tragedy one after the other is an empty way of compensating for proper character development.
People use that panel comparison of the M30YL comic as an example of how much SEGA castrate Sonic's emotions. The original looks ridiculous, Sonic bawling his eyes in what has to be one of the most overblown forms of tragedy in the comics (and that's saying a whole lot for a franchise that actually kills off characters on a regular basis), having his kids erased from existence. It's completely superfluous to his character, he has been shown losing people close before, and it has done a much better job defining his character without overplaying to the grim angst gimmick. That arc actually derailed Sonic's character for the sake of what was basically a glorified fan fic situation.
Quirks define Sonic's character, not crying. You wanna know why I hate the current versions of the Freedom Fighters, because they take the opposite method of development. Within all the super dramatic events and arcs befalling the group, can you actually say what kind of personality Rotor or Bunnie or even Antoine and Sally have anymore? Is it remotely important to how the story plays out?
@ToonReel: I don't want nothing but angst but in a settling like SatAM and the Archie Comics, it has to be present. and SEGA will probably make the characters not really care that their loved ones are erased from existence or only when there's a plot about it and completely sweep it under the rug the rest of the time.
and I don't care what Sonic is supposed to be like, if your kids die because of something you did, you are gonna sob like crazy, that hits way harder then a friend dying. and stuff like this also assumes that the Archie/Satam Sonic and the Game Sonic have the exact same personality.
and I don't see how the MXYL arc is out of character for Sonic. Sonic and Sally love each other, do you think Sonic would let his lifestyle get Sally and her entire family into a scandal because she's with him out of wedlock?
@Neo Ultra Mike: and how have the Freedom Fighters outgrown their SatAM roots? I read some of the later, pre-reboot comics and they felt the same to me. and they did in fact change Bunnie Rabbot's backstory drastically.
and I doubt that Ken Pennders created EVERY character the reboot did away with. so, why get rid of them?
and SatAM was only cancelled because the President of DiC at the time personally disliked it and forced the network to take it off the air. So, it isn't that the Satam characters work better in comic books,, they can transcend all mediums.
and adaptations should stand on their own. Why do people keep complaining that it doesn't fallow the games?
the satAM story is better than any the games
glad to hear one person say that.
The way I see it the Archie comics delivered many seasons worth of sequels to SatAM, pretty much. Just about anything they make would be a good basis for a cartoon (Mega Man, anyone?), but even then you're really talking a reboot and not a sequel at this point. It's too old for that, this thing will have ended 20 years ago in December.
I wouldn't say SatAM ended on a cliffhanger. The ending was open, which is not the same thing. Robotnik got taken out, a new and brighter era was ushered in. Snively was set up to cause trouble as Robotnik's successor, but that's a whole other story. And anyway, Snively sucks. How far was he really gonna get anyway? The ending is satisfactory. I don't feel like the show is unfinished just because the door was left open for more adventures.
For now, Sonic Boom is it. We'll just have to wait and see how that is.
because Ben Hurst already gave an outline for season three that says, yes, Snively is a threat. and they still have to find a way to fully reverse being Robotisized and free King Max.
and seeing the comics as a substatute for Satam or not, they just chucked out a ton of characters and storylines that people probably liked. and again, I doubt Ken Penders owned ALL of said characters.
and it seems to me that SEGA just doesn't care about the Satam fans, even if there was a huge demand for it to return, I'm guessing they won't listen.
OK, what makes SatAM so good that you think it needs to be restarted? All the people who worked on Satam have moved on with their careers.
I think you're overestimating how many people actually want Satam back.
haven't I already explained that? and any problems SatAM had were not that bad and can be fixed if the show does return.
I'm going to be honest, I think SatAM is ridiculously overrated.
for what reasons?
I never said that I think Sonic is bland because of the fact Sega doesn't allow him to show emotions. Actually that would apply to more say Mario or Mickey Mouse who generally, especially nowadays in their respective medias for the most part, are shown as either more bland or generic in order to appease to a certain "crowd mindset". What I am saying though is that yes there is plenty of evidence to showcase that Sonic in various other media was originally shown going through specific emotions that had to be changed or altered due to demands from Sega. Like for example an episode of SatAM that had him cry annoyed Sega so much they specifically forced the staff of the series to never allow Sonic to cry again. And yeah various comic panels which brings me to another point you made...
This is a personal pet peeve of mine but I really hate people who call something that happens in the offiical cannon source of something "a fan fic" or "fan fic scenario" and the like. Sorry but if it's getting actual print and actually being sold and someone has a copyright over it, that ceases being fan fiction. Say all the terrible things you want about 50 Shades of Grey, but it is no longer just Twilight fanfiction and has transcended that. And really professional comics and their storylines from a source that didn't start as a comic aren't fanfics of that original source. Just something that takes place in a different world. You can dislike that arc or feel the original artwork goes overboard and the like but the scenario it crafted fit the world that was created for it and wasn't just a fan fic. If it happened in the actual comics it's part of an official canon and has to be recongnized as such. Sorry but again I really dislike that term when used improperly like you were doing.
Yes it is actually. To be fair that hasn't happened yet with all the characters in the rebooted universe but honestly that still isn't even a year old yet and the team was only reunited and re-established after 256 anyway and the comics are only right up to 263, so development will progress more over time. Still there are some examples. I think Rotor's the worst but... it's hard to catergorize him in like pretty much any continuity as he's just the more geinus inventor character who is sort of tough but doesn't have a lot going for it. They're still portraying Antione as sort a cowardly but also chilvarious and neutrotic warrior as he still has a relationship with Bunnie who still barbs with him and she still has her own as the fans like to say "southern charm" to her.
As for Sally well... yeah her personality even in the limited appearances she'd had in the new continuity has been well spelled out: the tough taticial, somewhat emotional leader trying to spear head everyone as best she can. Which was not only important in 257 as there was a whole subplot of her having to get back into the groove of actually taking charge once more, but in the back story for 260 and 261. Which resolved in her instead of simply doing an easy mission of sneaking a chaos emerald out of a patroled Eggman area, alterted the doctor about it so he wouldn't destroy a precious landscape just to obtain the jewel. Sacrificing secrecy to help protect nature which honestly has always been something Sally was about (even back in the first episode of SatAM she had a quote about the Great forest going "out here the only ruler is mother nature") so yeah the personalities are important and mean a lot to the story. Again not too much time has passed in the new rebooted world to do a terrible amount with each character, but obviously it is coming (the next Sonic Universe arc will focus on Sally and Nicole actually), and again the characters wouldn't still be around if they weren't well recieved. And considering young fans are going to be all nostaligc for the 90's show it's obvious they still care about the characters NOW and want to see more done with them, so there you go.
Again note that I said the characters personalities and core are the same. Because the point I was trying to make was that characters who make a lasting impression change enough so they can stay relelvent even if they're at heart the same. But I'm generally talking about their placement in the world and roles and relationships and growth which far surpassed what they went through in SatAM. And honestly I'm not going to go through it all here as that's like 20 years worth of comic book history and there are plenty of sites you can go through on specifics of what happened there but it has more to do then just explaining backstories or giving them new relationships to be a part of. It has to do with just more happening and it shaping them which besides people who are nostalgic for the 90's show and don't view comics (more on that later) are what nowadays the characters are more known for.
You're right as besides new characters that were created by Flynn and the other current writers (which I guess is just his wife and occasionally Tracy Yeardly!), the Sega characters and the SatAM characters, all other characters from the series were taken out as well. Including ones created by Michael Gallagher, Karl Bollers, Frank Storm, Romy Chacron etc. But again like with all reboots the point of this one was to clean the slate as it were, and that meant removing a great deal of elements that were apart of the series mythos and changing them around to be more like a new world they were creating. And in doing so meant breaking building blocks others had set up as well.
You also have to remember the reason that Ken Penders was able to not only get away with suing Archie and legally claiming rights to them so he could publish his own material with them (BTW anyone seen the cover and explanation behind it of the Laru Su Chronicles? Yeah, Ken hasn't exactly improved throughout the years is all I'm saying on that) is because Sega/Archie didn't have the legal documents to offiically claim everything he created for the comics belonged to them. Since remember when Archie first licensced Sonic the Hedgehog to make comics for them they didn't expect it to be nearly as popular as it wound up being, thus writers in those first few years were all free lancers who didn't have the stricter legalities the current writers go through. Everything Ian Flynn makes for any of the comics he writes for is ofifically owned by Sega/Archie but such wasn't the case with the other long term writers. So if Ken Penders could do this so could everyone else. Thus Archie is ensuring that won't happen by losing those characters as well. It's sad but it's the honest truth and the reason you won't see them in the mainstream comics ever again. I guess this whole mess could be sorted out one day but I highly doubt that and really the only way that will happen is if Penders gives the rights to the characters back and officially signs a form allowing Sega/ARchie to be the only ones who can legally use the characters and get money from them. Since if that happen it would presumably happen with the other writers as well. And yeah no way is that happening at least one I can think of.
Uh that wasn't the only reason. It also did have low ratings with it's second season. Granted part of that was because of moving the show around the block but it generally did fairly poor for ABC. Especially since at the time it was competting against Power Rangers at the time which was at the height of it's popularity. So that's also a reason it didn't get a season 3.
Even though the comic book world has been rebooted and changed around it's still obvious that a variation of the events and backstory of SatAM happened during it which still molded the characters into who they were from the show and from the original Archie Run. Which is a variation of the world and a variation of the characters that obviously Sega doesn't want to use anywhere else. In case the most recent games and Sonic Boom haven't made it clear, it's obvious Sega views Sonic as a far more lighty, goofy and generally chipper series that just allows for fun adventures without a lot of continuity or alterations to the characters or for them to change much between the games. Which isn't the case for the comics and for the characters there. Thus why they work in the comics and not other mediums. You have to remember that certain characters have certain concepts or backstories tied to them that may work in one medium, but isn't going to work in another. Like for example are we ever going to see anything other then a comic done about the Lesbian Kate Kane version of Batwoman? Is she ever going to really appear as the character she is in a cartoon, movie or other related media? Not in this day and age sadly enough as sometimes there are only some mediums a character works best at. Something I don't know why you can't grasp when it's been made clear over and over that's the case for the SatAM cast.
Look even if Sega didn't care for the characters at all if there was such a huge demand for the characters and the setting they'd try and appease to that audience. Because the reason the marketing and executives keep pushing a certain way with the character is because that's generally the biggest and most profitable response they've gotten with him. If people wanted a darker more gritter take that's what we would of gotten. Just like how stories portraying Batman in the 80's like The Dark Knight Returns and the Burton movie made people a fan and generally appreciate the darker more grittier Batman compared to the lighthearted campier version everyone use to just associate with the character. But that hasn't been the case with Sonic. The only games that supposedly did well with a darker more story driven edge were Sonic Adventure 2 and because of how that game progressed it just made execs and marketting think to make Shadow get more focus, and we all know how that flopped. More attempts at story driven stuff like Sonic 06 and even Sonic: The Dark Brotherhood were either poorly recieved or didn't do that well compared to the lighter titles. And Sonic X which was a far lighter show (whose drama and plot actually had little do with Sonic as much as it did with Chris or the human characters) that had more general appeal as a show then SatAM did which is why it got a third season and repeated for years compared to SatAM's limited run. And though the comics are successful, they're sucessful for Archie comics but it's not going to be enough to change anyone's mind about the character outside that field.
Also remember that we are in the age of people demanding and able to get new seasons or series based on old remembered properties from years upon years ago. Whether it be series revivals like with Family Guy, Futurama and Beavis and Butthead (granted the later two were eventually cancelled as well but only came back because of fan love) or getting new spins to them like with the Boys Meets World spinoff Girls Meet World or that upcoming Full House sequel they're talking about making. If there is enough fan love ahd support something will come back, but it actually has to be there. And you are severly overestimating the audience for Sonic SatAm. Yes there is still one that still loves the show but it is nowhere near large enough to make any creator or executive or even marketting head feel like bringing the show back. Some series stand the test of time and keep being reused even in newer variations but that isn't the case for SatAM. Sorry but you need to accept this and move on because this obession with trying to bring this show back isn't going to get anywhere. Not unless you either acquire millions upon millions to sink into such a project or able to contact at least six thousand more times the amount of fan there currently are for the series around. And again I don't see either happening so please let it go man. It ain't happening.