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Official "Batman Begins" Movie News Thread, Part 3 (Possible Spoilers)

Discussion in 'DC Live-Action Movies and Television' started by Marvel_Knight, Jul 30, 2004.

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  1. Bird Boy

    Bird Boy WF Admin
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    Changed them all (this page anyway) to links.

    To those that post images: Any image over 60k, provide as a link, ESPECIALLY if there is more than one. This will help not drain bandwidth from the hosting sites (by loading images one doesn't care to see), and will help the thread load faster.

    Edit: Oh Poop. Another page already. :p

    -BB
     
  2. James

    James Administrator
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    Quite frankly I'm shocked I'm having a debate on this. Any design - facial in particular - work on precise systems. Move any of those angles and alignments and you'll lose facial characteristics. Move a white eye a mm out to the left and it will have an utterly different effect to the overall visual recognition. One can alter designs, or work on new concepts, but the systems are always there, just functioning differently.

    Norm Breyfogle's is extremely system orientated. Curves and lines are very exact and precise. Your second picture is way out of context, with the lift of the mask making for a slightly different shape. However, the shape is precisely, carefully allied to the systems required in the drawing to make it look "lifted". The lines are precise. It's nothing like what was offered and I really don't think even in this context one can pretend it is.

    Art is a matter of system refinements. A viewer will feel a character isn't drawn right or humanly accurate by the slightest change to line. Throwing a couple of white marks on the face doesn't ally itself to any of the images you've presented - or I've seen - that would help people identify any validity in an argument for white eyes - which is the issue here.

    Batwill, as I said in the last post, nothing against your opinion, but I just simply don't think that mock up helps the argument either way and in fact just makes it harder to clarify.

    Personally I think you are being oversenstive - if you have any issues with my comment bring it to me via PM. Rereading what I said, I don't think it wasn't rude at all. It was blunt but not rude. Certainly don't want to hurt anyones feelings, but unless you are willing to over some strong visual comparable evidence, it's not worth adding. The picture wasn't helpful in anyway and not worth entering into the debate over eyes. Maybe if I had just one line in my reply, fine, but there was more to the post than just a "rude" comment which frankly I'm baffled by your defense of - especially since I thought you knew me better than that.

    I've explained in detail throughout this thread on ways to move the design forward and methods to do so, adding big white blotches with no shape and asking if that's what I'm arguing for is not constructive or useful.

    My apologies on my part, I think a couple of mine were over 100k. They were trimmed down, but not really enough for some people's slow PCs. Blame it on a busy day. :)
     
  3. BatWill

    BatWill Member

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    no prob next time I ll just shut up hehe

    but like I said I far from being a pro with paintshop so I was just trying to give a little idea of how it could look you know....what you did is a lot cooler tho
    very nice work even if u did it quickly.... as far as Im concerned I like both. But
    seeing the eyes helps to show the emotion you know as the face is covered the eyes is the only way we can see or feel the emotion Bale is playing
    so both are cool maybe somehow someone from the movie will hear us and make some changes for the nest movie

    peace
     
  4. James

    James Administrator
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    Fair enough. :) As I said, it wasn't personal, and I wasn't really sure if you were serious about trying and failing with an art program or just playing around and belittling. It didn't seem worth the comment on it's own but now I understand some of your concerns, the least I can do is grace you with some feedback.

    I'm not saying it HAD to be done this way, but I think Hollywood is at a stage where they could have tried something different for a film claiming to be different from the past franchise. As for the lack of emotion in Bale.. IMO Batman isn't meant to be about emotion - he's symbollic.

    Same argument could go for Spider-Man.. in the end both characters show emotion though body language rather than the eyes.
     
  5. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    I think I know what you mean -- that the movie takes some pains to assign "practical" purposes to different elements of the Bat-costume; and in fact I agree, & I very much liked some parts of the script in that respect. But truthfully, I don't think that concerns about "how practical [the costume] would be for Batman in the real world" were much of a factor in the actual costume that was made.

    A "real world" Batman would have to give first priority in his costume design to coming up with something that he could actually wear and function in for significant periods of time. It would probably be made of as strong & cut-resistant a material as possible, as long as it was still lightweight & breathable enough to preserve the mobility that would allow him to move and jump and fight like he needs to without overheating. In short, he really wouldn't come up with something much like the BB costume. In one of the articles that BatKid posted, it talked about how heavy, hot & uncomfortable the costume was for Bale, and how it was a great feat of endurance for him to be in it for a few hours at a time. That simply wouldn't do for "real world" crime fighting (... allowing, of course, the notion of Batman-style crime fighting being able to take place at all).

    Of course for that matter, in actual "real world" terms, there would no doubt be problems with a number of the costume elements we're discussing. Contact lenses, for example, couldn't really be counted on to stay in during the kind of fighting and hard jarring action that a real Batman would put them through (which is why athletes who need corrective lenses usually wear prescription sports glasses instead of contacts). And Spider-Man style lenses built into the cowl would do what all lenses tend to do: Have you ever worn ski goggles, for example? What happens to them when you start to get active & your body warms up, or when you go from the cold outdoors into the warm ski lodge? They fog up. This wouldn't be an insurmountable problem on a movie set, where you can break between shooting scenes; but can you imagine Batman chasing a bad guy out of a cold Gotham night into the relative warmth of a building, and then having to stop and take off his cowl until his lenses stop fogging up from the sudden temperature change? Or maybe a fight ranges across a steam vent in a sidewalk, and Batman's lenses fog over, blinding him for a moment to his opponent.

    Don't get me wrong -- I'm not actually advocating that the filmmakers need to be that radical in making sure the film costume is "real world certified"; I only mean that it's not really the case that the costume they actually used for the movie is a "realistic approach" to the Bat-suit.
     
  6. Wing Zero

    Wing Zero Member

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    Oh I understand the bat suit in BB is in no way a prefferable choice for crimefighting. You did get what I mean about the "realistic approach" and again the only thing I would be worried about is explaining to the audience during the film why he would need the slits, I'd think there would be less questioning if contacts(or none) were used that's all :) Anyways, good post.
     
  7. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    Thanks, Wing Zero. :) And I think you may have struck on something there re: a potential issue with "justifying" white eyes to the audience. As I recall from one of BatKid's articles (which I for one have really appreciated the links to, btw), there was some discussion about why they went the route they did with the costume. The article said some fans had wanted them to use a simpler, more comic book style of Bat-suit, ala Dead End. But, if I was reading the article correctly, it said that they decided to go with the rubber look because they were consciously trying to place this costume in some kind of continuity with the ones used in the earlier Batman franchise, the idea being that this costume would look like an early prototype of those "later" versions. So, if they had white eyes in this film, when they didn't in the others, it would seem to violate that continuity.

    ...But you know, that whole costume continuity thing is a bit strange when you think about it, because from the script I read, it seems like this movie wasn't especially concerned about continuity with the other films in terms of its story. I'm thinking specifically of
    I dunno; did others read that article on the costume design the same way I did, insofar as the attempt at costume continuity?
     
  8. BatKid

    BatKid The True Batman

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    From what I understand, it's all just bs excuses for the real reason...it was one of the few things WB demanded Nolan to do. :)
     
  9. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    Ah, gotcha. Kind of like back when Batman Returns was coming out, & WB pretty much mandated that Bruce Timm & co. redesign the animated Penguin to look more "DeVito-esque," huh?
     
  10. BatKid

    BatKid The True Batman

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    And Bingo was his name-o. :anime:
     
  11. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    True, true, but that's the point - this movie is supposed to be totally removed from any other Batman storyline ever - it is starting up its own entirely new continuity, albeit with influences from all of its predecessors.


    -Tim
     
  12. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    That's a good point, Tim. And truthfully, I think NOT being slavish to the previous films' continuity is a good plan, on many levels. I know I'm in the minority on this, but there's a lot I don't like about the previous films.

     
  13. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    Even though I think YEAR ONE is a great story and everything, I am glad that this movie is totally unique - but still draws many themes and ideas from Miller's 1988 masterpiece.

    I do remember reading, however, that writer David Goyer was even more inspired by Jeph Loeb's LONG HALLOWEEN and DARK VICTORY than anything Miller did, though; this should prove to be a good thing in the sequels.

    I like a lot of what the earlier movies did, but I'm glad this is a complete restart. Hopefully all the villains aren't killed off (Joker, Penguin, and Two-Face would've been missed in the old series if they never came back) and this would, happily, wipe out the mess of the most recent movie.

    We have four months and 29 days as of today until the movie comes out. I'm pumped.

    -Tim
     
  14. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    I remember reading that as well. And did I also read that they're currently envisioning a total of 4 movies in this series, or am I confusing that with Spider-Man?


    Yeah, I'm pretty jazzed about this movie myself. I really liked the script (or at least the draft of it I saw); and while Bale might not have been my absolute first choice as Batman if I really had my 'druthers & could draft anyone I wanted, he's certainly in much better shape than any of the previous actors, and has some real Bruce-Wayne-like qualities about his look & manner. I think he'll be the best man for the job that we've seen in any of the big-budget feature films so far.

    ...Um, don't know if this would really be a spoiler, considering the scenes from the trailer, but just to be safe:

    I really think this is going to be the first big-budget Batman film that I want to own on DVD. :)
     
    #474 BonyT, Jan 19, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2005
  15. Robin

    Robin Guest

    I like the idea that we're going to see him train. It'll show he's more than just a suit, even though an armored-esque suit is practical. One thing I like that everyone else seems to hate is the casings around his arms. He's not wearing his regular gloves it looks like. It looks like he's going to have defensive shielding right there, which makes sense given the training glimpses we get in the secnd teaser.
     
  16. Clayface

    Clayface Molecularly Malleable Mod

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    You mean the gauntlet-like things on his forearms? I love those too. Very cool look, and one of my favorite parts of the design.
     
  17. DarkAngel

    DarkAngel Lord Vader

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    True. And more than that, we'll get to know Bruce Wayne the man. We'll know the character, understand his motivations, so that later when we see him as Batman, he won't be the cape and cowl, but rather a developed, three-dimensional character.
     
  18. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    Speaking of his costume and his arms and such, I just noticed something. In the second, more recent trailer, I could've sworn that, in the scene where Bruce and Ducard are fighting on the glacier, Ducard is wearing scalloped gloves that look almost identical to what Batman wears later in the film.

    Interesting...

    -Tim
     
  19. BonyT

    BonyT Sisyphus in Hell

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    Tim, only read if you don't mind a little spoiler from the script:
     
  20. TimTwoFace

    TimTwoFace Mod, and Minotaur Bait
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    I have read the script already and have been biting my tongue every time I post here because I don't want to spoil anything major. :p I don't recall that one aspect of the gloves being used, though - that's cool how it fits in with Batman's origins and how he acquires some of his equipment.

    -Tim
     
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