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News and Politics 2017 (General Political Discussion thread)

Discussion in 'Cafe toonzone' started by wonderfly, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. SB20xx

    SB20xx Oooooh!
    Staff Member Moderator Reporter

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    Rule #1: Believe the tyrant.

    Though it cannot be stated enough that Steve Bannon, who just got promoted in Trump's cabinet, is arguably the real danger here. This political cartoon says it all:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Ah, it's George W. Bush supposedly being the puppet of Dick Cheney all over again. Behind the dumb Republican President, there's always an evil mastermind.

    Okay, so I want to give an addendum to my commentary yesterday: I was attempting to explain Trump's parameters for why those 7 countries were on the list, but why Saudi Arabia wasn't (my theory being "unstable governments + Iran is evil"). Well, add to the list of explanations the following: These 7 countries were already picked by the Obama Administration. Here is the Department of Homeland Security edict from Obama's time in office.

    Also, my commentary was not meant as an "thumbs up" on Saudi Arabia. If we want to add Saudi Arabia and others to the list, fine by me. I am well aware of their deplorable human rights abuses. Reince Priebus suggests more nations could be added to the ban, so you may get your wish.

    But then the same people complaining Saudi Arabia's not on the list ("because Trump's greedy!!") would then be complaining that Saudi Arabia's people were being discriminated against, which makes for a nice double standard, and reveals no matter what Trump does, they are going to be offended by it.

    Well, we the American people (the ones that work hard for a living and don't have time to protest) are going to carry on with making our country safe again.
     
    #82 wonderfly, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  3. MDawg

    MDawg Nerfariously planning

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    Nice comments @wonderfly. Yes, how DARE people protest actions they object to. Why all those lazy, good-for-nothing conservatives should have stepped in line and not pitched a fit and called President Obama a secret muslim, a foreigner who couldn't prove he was born here and various racial slurs continually. No, they should have gotten to work like REAL Americans!

    Gotta defend that sad, unapologetic rapist cause it's the Christian thing to do, right?
     
  4. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    Let's keep it civil here everyone... I'm just pointing out the absurdity of banning refugees and immigrants from several Muslim-majority countries, but not the one that has historically caused us the most harm. That makes it, by definition, an ineffective policy in combating terrorism here at-home. The whole thing is a bad idea and a poor way to deal with the issue, but even as a symbolic gesture, how can you deny that it fails completely when we can all agree that people from Saudi Arabia have produced the most devastating attacks (aside from home-grown terrorists)? It's sad that these actions have us arguing the merits of what are misguided policies that only serve to placate people who would rather act out of fear than reason.

    Here is an analogy for you: When it comes to freedom, sometimes you have to give up a degree of security in order to be truly free. Have you ever heard of a case where a murderer is allowed to walk free because there is not evidence "beyond a shadow of a doubt" against them? We do not do it because we want the bad guy to get away, we do it because we want the innocent to be protected if the day should come when they need that protection. It is a trade-off that we as a society agree is worth it in order to protect the innocent. The same with immigration and refugees. Yes, maybe one or two people are or will become radicalized on our shores, but there are thousands who we are helping escape violence and find a better life who never will.

    The point being that we can't have these broad-stroke policies like the wall or the ban. We need smart policies that target threats, better inteligence and vetting, but most of all we cannot be so scared of what someone might do to us that it changes who we are as a nation. Sure someone like Tashfeen Malik might come into the country and become alienated/radicalized here, but we have to be willing to take that risk just like we do with so many other things every day so that we can continue to do the things that make us "the land of the free and the home of the brave". Yes, we have to find new and better ways to prevent these things from happening so that we can continue to help the people who need it, but banning whole swaths of people from seeking entry into the country cannot be one of them. Because if we give in to these base ideas and fears, then we will no longer be the country we claim to be, a free one.
     
  5. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Yes, those countries were flagged by the Obama administration, but flagging countries and banning everyone from those countries are two different things. By the way, as critical as I was on Saudi Arabia, I do NOT want them on the list. I don't want anyone on the list, I don't want this list to exist. There's no double standard from me or anyone else here, since I think many of the people posting here agree with me that this list shouldn't exist, we were just pointing out a double standard on the part of excluding Saudi Arabia. MNo, I'm not going to find everything Trump does offensive because I'm some crazy lefty who's offended by everything a right wing president does. However, I'm not going to be happy if a president does something as horrendous and divisive as this.

    Oh, I see. All the people protesting, are just unemployed bleeding hearts who go back to their mother's basements after protesting. A bunch of snowflakes who just want to make the world less safe. Did you see the pictures of US veterans who were protesting at airports? The ones carrying signs saying this wasn't what they fought for? I hope so, there were a number of them. But I guess they don't work for a living and don't want to make America safe. That's a deeply insulting thing to say of the protestors, yet I see this exact comment often from the right. You do know these protests were at their peak in the weekend, when many people don't have to work? I happen to know a few people at some of these protests. I assure you, they are hard working professionals. And how dare these people exercise their free speech and voice their displeasure over something they disagree with! Protesting is the most American thing you can do. It's fine to disagree with them, but don't insult them. But the way, everyone wants to make their safe, but you seem to be buying the alarmist rhetoric from Trump. "Make our country safe again." You do know we are statistically living in the safest time in human history, right? And that violence in America has been steadily decreasing? You also know you are more likely to die from falling out of bed than in a terror attack? But no, keep feeling terrified over everything.
     
  6. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    More often then not, protests are not "organic" uprisings - it's not people going about their daily lives, hear something Trump did, become upset and take to the streets. That's not how it happens.

    There is a culture among the left that promotes attending protests (which I get - they're wanting to relive the Civil Rights movement). But all they accomplish is block people from traveling, shut down highways, or purposefully inciting violence at Republican events.

    And then we find more often then not these protesters are PAID to go and protest. So forgive me if I express skepticism at these airport protests. And respectfully: I'm not going to debate Christianity with you, MDawg. Well, not today anyway. Because I just don't think I could change your view on the subject.
     
    #86 wonderfly, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  7. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    wondefly, it's true that many protests are to a degree manufactured by some interest group, but the majority of those are happening on the Tea Party and fringe right at the behest of Charles and David Koch. These guys fund the think tanks that make the propaganda that end up on the tongues of every Repulican candidate. Their employess become politicians and lobbyists on a regular basis, denying climate change, pushing trickle-down economics and tax breaks that will benefit their oil companies and pocketbooks. Yes, Soros has had something to say about Bush and social issues, but he hasn't pumped nearly as much money into the political system as the Koch network, and he hasn't profitted from his efforts either.
     
  8. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Protests are different in these days of social media. they're much easier to organize, and things move much quicker. I don't think these protests represent legitimate uprisings.

    Paying people to protest happens all the time from both conservatives and liberals, though I highly doubt all of the protestors we've seen are paid. I can assure you the people I know aren't being paid a dime. Paying people to riot at Trump rallies is of course horrendous, but that's the DNC playing an extreme game of politics. That is not the kind of thing the left stands for. Conservative activist James O'Keefe was caught trying to bribe people to riot at Trump's inauguration so he could blame it on radical lefties. Everyone does this kind of thing, awful as it is.
     
  9. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    No, I did not. Please share, I'm interested.
     
  10. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    Planned Parenthood had an incentive to help organize the Women's March, but who has an incentive to stand up for Muslim refugees? A monetary one? Maybe a political one? Even with the Women's March though, those are people whose views aligned with the interests of Planned Parenthood, so they all chose to go, they weren't hired.
     
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  11. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Here's a few links. There's more stories about it elsewhere, but I figured this was enough to get the point across. Again, be careful when criticizing protestors, you never know who they are.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Nobodyman

    Nobodyman Well-Known Member

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    You don't get it. Opponents to the Muslim ban don't want ANY country to be on the ban list. The reason people were pointing out that Trump isn't banning immigrants from Saudi Arabia (and other countries), allegedly due to him having business interests in them, was because they believed it showed his hypocrisy and that the ban doesn't even work on the pretense of keeping America safe. But okay, fine, maybe Trump put those countries on the ban list because they were already identified as a risk by the Obama administration. That doesn't change the fact the Muslim ban is a terrible idea that won't make America safer and, in fact, will probably only increase tensions between America and radical Muslims (many Jihadists have already declared Trump's ban a victory as they believe it has legitimized their cause) and end up hurting a lot of innocent people.

    Safe from what? Terrorists that sneak in through immigration among the refugees? It may interest you know that the chance of any one person being killed by a refugee terrorist is exceedingly low . As for the terrorist attacks we've experienced in the last few years (San Bernardino, Boston, Orlando) most if not all of them were committed by home-grown American-born terrorists. Yes, they acted in the name of radical Islamism, but they had no official connection to any terrorist group. They had been inspired by propaganda.

    The thing is, no one is ever 100% safe. No matter where you live or what life you lead, there's always something out there that can kill you, whether it's a terrorist, or a mugger, or a household accident. Now that's not to say we should do nothing. Terrorists are very much a real threat that should be dealt with and we are dealing with it. And, yes, unfortunately we still often do that at the expense of innocent lives. But the Muslim ban just doesn't work on any level because, as I said before, it doesn't make Americans any safer, it raises tension between the US and Islamic terrorists, and it hurts many innocent people.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Red Arrow :D

    Red Arrow :D Proud Beneluxer

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  14. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Okay guys, some big news here. A few hours ago, acting Attorney General Sally Yates instructed DOJ lawyers not to defend the travel ban because she didn't think it was legal. Wait, no, let me rephrase. FORMER acting AG Sally Yates. Trump just fired her for failing to enforce an order, even though she believed the order was illegal. He is the first President since Richard Nixon to fire an AG.
     
  15. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    The question is, are Trump's actions here legal, and are they legal under executive authority alone? I wish I knew more about the relevant laws here, but I know the initial banning of green card/visa holders, which they later backed away from, was apparently not legal. What do the courts have to say about this?

    EDIT: It looks like there were two federal court rulings to prevent visa/green card holders from deportation (temporarily), but not to allow them into the US.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/28/...l-challenges-to-trumps-immigration-order.html
     
    #95 Dreyfus, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  16. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it matters. The CBP has been directly defying the orders of the court on this. Understand this: the executive branch is straight ignoring court orders. I don't mean to be antagonistic here, but @wonderfly, you can't be on board with this, right? Is this making America great again?
     
  17. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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  18. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    A lot of fast flowing news tonight, on all this. From what I read though, Jeff Sessions was set to be approved by the Senate tomorrow. So this appears to be the last defiant act of an Obama appointee on her way out the door.

    So I dunno...this spectacle might've been avoided if Democrats hadn't needlessly help up Session's confirmation up to this point. (shrug). I might have more to say after getting a chance to digest all this info tomorrow.
     
  19. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    From what I can tell, it sounds like this is going to end up being legal.

    @wonderfly, the far greater spectacle here is the ban itself and the protests against it. Having Jeff Sessions instead of the Obama holdover wouldn't have avoided that. Now as far as Trump's remaining picks go, it sounds like the Democrats are really going to be taking a stand against DeVos, who if you look into it is just as bad as the Kochs, going back to the book I mentioned earlier, Dark Money.

    P.S. Speaking of needlessly holding up nominations, I wonder who Trump will pick for the Supreme Court. There's another political nightmare looming in the weeks ahead.
     
    #99 Dreyfus, Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  20. EinBebop

    EinBebop Data Dog

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    I think one problem Trump may have on the legal front of this ban is the words of Rudy Guliani. He said on Saturday that Trump came to him and said to give him a Muslim ban and make it legal. So they focused on the danger rather than religion. "Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible..." Well, silly, it's not sensible to state that intent of the ban was to target Muslims and that you just found a way to do it without naming Muslims directly.

     

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