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News and Politics 2017 (General Political Discussion thread)

Discussion in 'Cafe toonzone' started by wonderfly, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. Nobodyman

    Nobodyman Well-Known Member

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    Do you have basis for that? Because I seem to recall Trump's approval ratings being pretty low.
     
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  2. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    The polling on all of these issues suggests otherwise. The Republican Obamacare repeal's support is in the mid-20's.
    Who defines who the average American is? Why do I have a feeling you are dogwhistling there? Or more like dogsirening?
    There is no basis for that opinion. Trump is widely hated by everyone but the dead-enders.
     
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  3. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Trump's personal approval ratings may be low, but support for the issues he wraps himself up in remains overall high, especially with registered Republicans. Consider this poll from last week. Yeah, his approval rating is 43% overall, but among Republicans, his approval rating is 80%.

    70% of Americans view North Korea as a threat to the U.S.
    A majority of Americans want to preserve Confederate Statues.
    And the ratings for Sunday Night Football last Sunday night were the lowest in 11 years. (i'm waiting for more polls on the kneeling debate to come out in the days to come)

    After hearing Trump's speech at the U.N. last week, I said "All Trump has to do in 2020 is go around playing excerpts of that speech, and he gets re-elected." Easily, more than likely.

    Do Republicans think Trump is rude and idiotic at times? Sure. Do they still back his agenda? 110%.
     
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  4. Red Arrow :D

    Red Arrow :D Proud Beneluxer

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    Everyone in this thread is calling himself "the average American of 2020".

    Los averagos Americanos is tired of this, los averagos Americanos is tired of that. The average American doesn't even vote, don't expect him to be interested in politics!

    Let's just assume that WHATEVER bad happens in the next 3.5 years, the president will be held responsible for it, whether that's fair or not. So the Democrats have an advantage.
     
  5. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    The fact that Republicans support Trump because he is trying to enact their agenda is not a compliment to Trump. It is an indictment of Republicans. To support someone this clearly deranged, stupid, dangerous, vile, vulgar, disgusting, and crazy because he serves your political agenda is not only unethical, is it wholly immoral. Matters of good and evil and right and wrong should transcend politics. The fact that Republicans are willing to let Trump grab as many [bleep] as he wants so long as they get that stolen Supreme Court seat shows that the entire party is rotten to the core.
     
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  6. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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    I'm just curious, Wonderfly...what would it take to get you to change your mind about any of this?

    And just in case I get the answer back "Oh yeah? What would it take to change YOUR mind?".......if the Republican Party took steps to elect the most educated, rational candidates possible, maybe I'd have a little more respect. But as it stands, this is the party that looked at Trump and said "Yup, nuttin' wrong HERE."

    That Fox News quote you posted earlier mentions "removing statues of our founding fathers." Robert E. Lee was not a founding father; he wasn't even born back in 1776. I see these errors all the time in right-leaning arguments, and you can dismiss it as nitpicking, but it respects very poorly on your party and your worldview. It literally suggests you don't care about facts.

    And if you don't care about getting things right, how does your opinion hold any validity?

    NOTE: NO DEFLECTION ALLOWED. Do not respond with "Well, the Democrats did this." We're not talking about them right now!
     
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  7. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, not getting into the anthem controversy, too loaded. I will say that I absolutely understand where both sides are coming from on this one. I even get where Trump is coming from, though I really think it would be better if he would simply learn the fine art of shutting up.

    I'm going to challenge you a bit. Yes, the majority of Americans regard NK as a serious threat. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that it's not more than 70% who view them as a threat. What you didn't mention is that the majority of Americans oppose the way Trump is handling it. This CBS poll shows that 53% oppose his handling of it, while a measly 39% support him. The fact that only 37% of independents approve of him is anything but a good sign. Yes, the conservatives are still backing him, but that's not enough to win another election. He needs to keep the independents happy. This poll shows 51% disapprove of his handling of NK, while this one from a month ago also has him at a 53% disapproval rating. When three polls are as consistent as these three are, you have to admit that they must be taken seriously. Do you really think the average American looks at their President calling Kim Jong-Un "Rocket man" and threatening to blow an entire country from the face of the Earth and think "Yeah, that's my guy!" Rhetoric and language matter, especially on the world stage. Volatility and hot headedness only get you so far.

    As for SNF ratings being down, yeah, I don't doubt the protests had something to do with that. However, I would remind you that it was a terrible game, and I can tell you that I turned it off before long. One of the major reasons for NFL ratings being down is that more and more people are cable cutting and resorting to watching games on streaming sites. Also, despite SNF ratings being down, ratings for Week 3 are actually UP from last year. Finally, Monday Night Football's ratings last night were a season high. One last thing, when we speak of the overall opinion of these protests, let me remind you that Colin Kaepernick's jersey was the highest selling jersey in the NFL as of last September, despite his awful play. Heck, it's still one of the top 50 best selling jerseys, and he's not even an active player! I'm curious to see what you think of all this.
     
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  8. Red Arrow :D

    Red Arrow :D Proud Beneluxer

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    Kim Jong Un would literally lose everything if he attacked Japan / South-Korea / USA. I can understand where that 30% is coming from.
     
  9. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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  10. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Calling it an ethnic cleansing is an enormous overreaction, and an irresponsible one at that. Do you really think Trump is intentionally withholding aid because he wants to kill Puerto Ricans? That's an incredibly hyperbolic claim to make. That said, you are correct in that reaction to this disaster has been anything but satisfactory.
     
    #730 Spideyzilla, Sep 27, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  11. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Considering the fact that he lifted the Jones Act for both Harvey and Irma, but refused to do it for Puerto Rico, yes, I really do believe that.
     
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  12. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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    He was slow on this because of petty gripes about Puerto Rico's debt and bad deals his business friends have gotten from the region. Which is bad, but intentional genocide is not his thing. We're getting into "Bush did 9/11" territory here.
     
  13. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    No, we really are not. We would be getting in that territory if we suggested that Trump was behind Hurricane Maria. That's how dumb 9/11 truthers are. The fact that he is deliberately withholding help from Puerto Rico because it is filled with brown people is not a conspiracy theory. It is almost certainly true. If it weren't, he would have suspended the Jones Act already. He did it twice already for Harvey and Irma. There is no other explanation but intentional malice.

    Whether that eventually winds up as negligent homicide, or murder, or ethnic cleansing, or whatever else the article argues, is definitely up for debate. I concede that. Words do have definitions, and I am one of those people who tries to stick by them whenever possible. But I also don't want a potential huge loss of life to be declared by its worst definition only after it has happened. If the death toll gets as high as it looks like it's going to, and Trump continues to deliberately do nothing because the island is Spanish speaking, then I want people to understand exactly what is happening while it is happening, and not have to wait until after the fact to blare the siren and say "Who could have predicted?"

    Puerto Rico is in a state of emergency, and Trump is deliberately holding off help because he is a racist. I am not going to give him any benefit of the doubt about that. I don't know why anyone who has witnessed his behavior over the past 30 years in New York ever would either. This is not new. Ask the Central Park Five.
     
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  14. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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  15. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Well, look at that. Trump just lifted the Jones Act. Funny, I guess his plans for mass genocide of Spanish people will have to wait until next week. By the way, if you had bothered to do any reading, you would have noticed that there is in fact a good possibility that the Central Park 5 were in fact guilty, or at least partially guilty. I know that their stories contradict each other, but you can't dismiss their confession entirely. Did they do it? I don't know, but it's nowhere near as certain as you make it sound. You know what their best alibi was? That they couldn't have attacked Trisha Meili, because eyewitnesses said they were too busy mugging someone else in Central Park!
     
  16. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    He lifted the Jones Act due to public outcry. He should have lifted it immediately. People died because he didn't.

    I'll apologize for calling it genocide if things improve immediately. If not, I do not regret my choice of words at all.

    The Central Park Five were innocent of the crime they were accused of. They were no angels, but they certainly did not deserve the death penalty for a crime they were exonerated for, as Trump was lobbying. But Trump loves himself some dead minorities.

    For the record, I do dismiss their confession entirely, because it was coerced. I dismiss all coerced confessions and think any time a cop does that, the cop is probably the one lying.
     
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  17. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    I'll respond to specific questions asked of me later, I've just been busy lately (sorry)...

    But I did want to respond:

    Of interest to me, the article itself you linked to doesn't reference Trump. If anything, the author urges people to call their Senators. Which is as it should be, when people notice injustice that can be addressed by government.

    But the narrative of "Hurricane Maria is Trump's 'Katrina'" should be starting to fall apart:

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/0...media-attacks-trumps-response-hurricane-irma/

    From that article (on Monday) the Governor of Puerto Rico is quoted as saying the following (on PBS News Hour):

    "The president has been very attentive to the situation, personally calling me several times. FEMA and the FEMA director have been here in Puerto Rico twice. As a matter of fact, they were here with us today, making sure that all the resources in FEMA were working in conjunction with the central government.

    We have been working together. We have been getting results. The magnitude of this catastrophe is enormous. This is going to take a lot of help, a lot of collaboration. So, my call is to congressmen and congresswomen to take action quickly and conclusively with an aid package for Puerto Rico.

    We are in the midst of potentially having a humanitarian crisis here in Puerto Rico which would translate to a humanitarian crisis in the United States. So, I call upon Congress to take action immediately. You know, Puerto Ricans are proud U.S. citizens."


    The Associated Press is reporting:

    "Rossello and other officials praised the federal government for planning its response in detail before the storm hit, a contrast with what Puerto Rico has long seen as the neglect of 3.4 million Americans living in a territory without a vote in Congress or the electoral college.

    "This is the first time we get this type of federal coordination," said Resident Commission Jenniffer Gonzalez, Puerto Rico's non-voting representative in Washington."

    Granted, that article is 3 days old, so maybe the island had a meltdown since then? I know it's hard for the media to give up on a chance to bash Trump, even when the evidence doesn't line up with the narrative...
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Thank you for the measured response. It is appreciated. Unfortunately most of what you posted has been debunked.

    First of all, the Governor of Puerto Rico's response is standard politician boilerplate. Believe it or not, before Trump came along, politicians didn't always insult each other during times of crisis. This also strikes me as the Governor's way to not get on Trump's bad, vindictive side because Puerto Rico is still desperate for help.

    I hesitate to link to Daily Kos again, because it IS a liberal blog, and its partisan nature could perhaps be dismissed by conservatives, but blogger noweasels has been doing a heroic job with their ongoing SOS Puerto Rica series, and it is a good place to get all of the current news in one roundup.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/9/28/1702607/-SOS-Puerto-Rico-The-Suffering-Continues

    Bottom line: It's not enough. The Jones Act has only been lifted for only 10 days, and not enough troops, rescue workers and supplies are being sent to keep up with demand. Only 18 people have died since Maria (as of now) but that is still 18 too many. .

    But as promised, I would apologize for wondering if this was ethnic cleansing if help was on the way. I'm sorry. But the help the island IS receiving is not enough.
     
  19. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Some further information on the relief. It seems the people of Puerto Rico are not happy. To be clear, this is anything but partisan, at least from me. If it was a Democrat President dropping the ball like this, you can beat I'd be furious about this.

    Edit: The mayor of San Juan is also attacking the federal government over its response. He’s specifically attacking Trump’s claim that this is a “good news story.”
     
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    #739 Spideyzilla, Sep 29, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  20. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    A new low.

    [​IMG] Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    The Mayor of San Juan, who was very complimentary only a few days ago, has now been told by the Democrats that you must be nasty to Trump.
    [​IMG] Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    ...Such poor leadership ability by the Mayor of San Juan, and others in Puerto Rico, who are not able to get their workers to help. They....
    [​IMG] Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    ...want everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort. 10,000 Federal workers now on Island doing a fantastic job.
    [​IMG] Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
    The military and first responders, despite no electric, roads, phones etc., have done an amazing job. Puerto Rico was totally destroyed.


    I can't even anymore. All of this outrage is exhausting. I am constantly near tears. I don't know what to do.
     

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