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News and Politics 2013 (General Political Discussion thread)

Discussion in 'Cafe toonzone' started by wonderfly, Jan 1, 2013.

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  1. darkdetective

    darkdetective Former TZ Reporter/Reviewer

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    Nearly every courthouse I've been in had a 10 Commandments painting or statue. Today's laws and even to an extent the court system is ultimately originally based on the Bible. It isn't the government siding with a particular religion, but rather a nod to where some of its ideas come from, not unlike the Roman inspired design of the White House, because that's where democracy started.
     
  2. SB20xx

    SB20xx Oooooh!
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    That's not all. Local police are using cell phone towers to track people. This includes people not under suspicion of a crime. I'm running out of negative phrases for how appalled I am at all this. If there is no warrant, you should not be tracked. Period.

    There is some potentially good news, though: Major tech companies have launched a campaign for surveillance reform.
     
  3. Punisher

    Punisher One Shot At Glory

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    I think that group is just perpetuating the stereotype that some people just go out looking for new ways to be offended.
     
  4. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    It is in fact the government (in the form of opportunistic, headline-grabbing politicians) siding with a particular religion in many of these cases, as part of institutionalized, hidebound bias in others. It's just that they sometimes use the kind of excuses you're making here to get away with it.

    But those excuses aren't enough to open the door just for Judeo-Christianity and then slam it shut for everyone else. Satan, for example, is a vital figure in our understanding of evil and of bad. Our understanding of evil and of bad is vital to our system of laws. So each courthouse should have a monument to Satan, with a little disclaimer on it somewhere that it's fully secular, of course. You could do this with just about everything. Sharia Law can be shown to have influenced the western judicial system in some ways, lets put that up there next to the Ten Commandment and Satan, with a little disclaimer somewhere that it's fully secular of course.

    Or maybe let's don't do this. Maybe let's take separation of church and state seriously and keep the religious iconography away from government buildings.
     
  5. darkdetective

    darkdetective Former TZ Reporter/Reviewer

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    It has nothing to do with politicians. New York City is as godless as they come, and its in every courthouse I've worked at has some nod to the ten commandments.

    You don't understand, US law is based off English Common Law which itself is based off Judeo-Christian law. (Or that's what they told us in law school.) Satanism and Islam had nothing to do with the development of the American legal system, though it would make sense, in a secular middle-eastern country (other than Israel, of course) for there to be a reference to Sharia law, even if its a secular system. Like it or not, America stems from a religious group of people. You'd probably have better luck arguing that Christmas shouldn't be a federal holiday, and the mail should be running then, courts open, etc.
     
  6. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

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    I understand the justification for it as given. I also understand that opening that door, by saying it's okay because the Ten Commandments was an influence on current law opens the door to rationalizing any other influence on current law as also worthy of a monument, and that the monument to Satan should be put up just because of basic fairness. The struggle between good or right and evil or wrong (as represented by Satan) is primordial, it predates the 10 Commandments and is the underlying basis of them, so it's arguably a much more important influence on our system of laws than anything else. Why if the justification given for the Ten Commandments is true, would anyone object? A large monument to the lord of evil isn't really religious in this context, just like the 10 Commandments

    Or maybe the justification as given doesn't hold up in the real world. It's not a purely historical monument. What's really happening is that separation of church and state doesn't really play well with people. Judeo-Christians want government to recognize their religion and enforce their moral codes, that's why it makes them feel better to have a big version of it staring at people outside the legislature. The Satanists are simply trolling to point this out, that it is a religious monument and that other religions would never be given the same consideration, because the true criteria is not secular.

    Here's an article about this particular monument that gives more context to the motivations under which it was placed. The monument's Constitutionality was already in question, the lawmakers behind it are also pushing for a chapel to join it at the capitol to celebrate the state's "Judeo-Christian heritage," and they're pushing for Nativity and religious symbols in public schools. The argument that it's intended as secular is hard to make with a straight face.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/0...-ten-commandments-monument-on-steps-oklahoma/

    Also, a good line from the ACLU, which sued to have the monument removed even before the Satanists got involved.

    Brady Henderson, legal director for ACLU Oklahoma, said if state officials allow one type of religious expression, they must allow alternative forms of expression, although he said a better solution might be to allow none at all on state property.

    "We would prefer to see Oklahoma's government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are," Henderson said. "But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol, the Satanic Temple's proposed monument cannot be rejected because of its different religious viewpoint."
     
    #1006 Shawn Hopkins, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2013
  7. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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  8. defunctzombie

    defunctzombie 1992 not 2002
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    The Japanese government has been warning people for years about the "evil Chinese pollution", I wouldn't be surprised if they used that story for their war chest.
     
  9. Kindness King

    Kindness King Active Member

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  10. I.R. Shokew

    I.R. Shokew DISGRACED and Rooting ONLY for Underdogs

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    Last night, the GOP-led Michigan State Legislature passed a bill forbidding basic health insurance plans from covering abortions -- in ANY circumstances. This means Michigan women will be paying out of pocket for abortions, even in the cases of rape or incest.

    To sum it up: Michigan Republicans are telling women to invest in "rape insurance."


    I'm sorry, but I don't have a link on this. This does not stop me from reporting what is bad news I feel people should feel motivated about to fight accordingly.
     
  11. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    The US Air Force is finally going to kill the A-10 "Warthog" at some point in 2015 to save $3.7 billion.

    Personally, I think the A-10 is going to save a lot of lives on the ground in future wars. It's slow and ugly but it is very, very good at what it does. It's a mistake to kill the entire fleet. Unless we don't plan on fighting wars anymore we need this plane to keep our Army troops alive.

    And yet we persist with the F-35 which is increasingly looking more and more like a disaster.
     
  12. SB20xx

    SB20xx Oooooh!
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    Some prominent politicians (including John Boehner and Paul Ryan) are finally fed up with the Tea Party. Maybe some semblance of moderation can be restored to the GOP.
     
  13. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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    Even Paul "Green Eggs and Ham" Ryan? I thought he was a member.
     
  14. I.R. Shokew

    I.R. Shokew DISGRACED and Rooting ONLY for Underdogs

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    Whmoever's that fed up must be losing face if they're that unpopular... Part of me knows those two example (Boehner and Ryan) were firm supporters... This screams saving face tactic, IMHO.
     
  15. stephane dumas

    stephane dumas Well-Known Member

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  16. SB20xx

    SB20xx Oooooh!
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    I am extremely EXTREMELY disappointed in this decision. But I can't say I'm surprised either. There's a lot of money in the military-industrial complex, so nobody wants to rein in their expensive spying technologies. Especially not when they can use "stopping terrorists" as a convenient excuse to justify their budgets.

    Meanwhile, we the people have to pay for these expensive practices, whether we like it or not, and are constantly monitored by the very same source that we have to give money to. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??

    Our only hope in this is if U.S. tech companies lose enough money from people wary to do business with them to affect their bottom line. Hit 'em where it hurts, their wallets, then maybe we'll see actual reform.
     
  17. I.R. Shokew

    I.R. Shokew DISGRACED and Rooting ONLY for Underdogs

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    I'm sorry - It'll take more than businesses of type going under to end, let alone put the NSA in its place for promotion of fascism - we have to make it happen.

    In the end (and this is what I keep trying to tell people, despite how much as it could leave society vulnerable, but also despite being freed up from fascism such as this insult.), this issue can and likely will unfortunately require violence equal to that of what's happening in Argentina over necessities like food, for example, seeing as no one is listening to people like us who see what is wrong here, with wide open eyes!

    I see few other ways to resolve this, as the peaceful ones continue to be outlawed by fascist tendencies who think their intentions are good - which is total nonsense, as well as blasphemy, and always has been from them... I know this to be true.

    The day America goes to war with itself over trash like this will be a sad and regretful one, but I know it's coming - and there are people out there in love with the idea as well, which is even sadder.
     
  18. stephane dumas

    stephane dumas Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, Argentina isn't the only country where it happened, since a couple of days there some protests in Italy as well.
    BBC News - 'Pitchfork' protests rattle Italian government
    PressTV - Italians protest Rome?s, EU?s economic policies
     
  19. The Huntsman

    The Huntsman Friend of Toon Zone

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    There are a lot of memorials today for what happened in Newtown last year. What I don't get is why the memorials - even the one at the White House - fail to include Nancy Lanza who was the shooter's first victim. She didn't do anything illegal. She didn't shoot up that school. She was gunned down in her bed by her own son. I've been switching between the news channels and none of them have even mentioned her from what I've seen.
     
  20. CartoonFridays

    CartoonFridays Promoted to detective.

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    Maybe it was because her militaristic attitude contributed to the shooting happening in the first place. The NY Daily News did a front page story about her with the headline "Blood on Her Hands".
     
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