1. We are looking for a volunteer to help out with entering the DC and Marvel comics solicitations. If you are interested, please contact Harley.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Just in time for Halloween, enter for a chance to win a $50 Gift Card from FUN.com! Details here.
    Dismiss Notice

MGM Cartoons version differences discussion

Discussion in 'Back To The Inkwell - Classic Cartoons Discussion' started by Cool_Cat, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. A-Cecil

    A-Cecil Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    20
    Great job! Looks very close to the original Laserdisc version, as if this was how it'd look like if MGM/UA Home Video restored classic animation as early as 1988 for VHS and Laserdisc releases.

    The background noise in the audio is forgivable, as Laserdisc audio sometimes has background noise too.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Daffyrocks

    Daffyrocks Woo-hoo-hooo!

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    209
    And my CD copy had the cartoons also from "Happy Go Ducky", but until the ep "Tot Watchers" (I think).

    In all, it only contained the latest Cinemascope shorts.

    Well, it definetly looks like the Spotlight Collection print of the cartoon. Still, good job on replicating it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    Actually your CD also contains those 2 Spike and Tyke spin-offs right after "Tot Watchers"
    Then there's a CD with removed MGM logo and the end title of the Chuck Jones' short. And they didn't use the "cat logo" but the Tom and Jerry 1957 title cards instead.

    Definitely, since the footage from The Art of Tom and Jerry looks extremely dark (because of the low contrast). I used the MGM logo, the title card and the end screen from Classic Collection (cropped a little bit) and Spotlight Collection (because it has brighter color). The audio track in The Art of Tom and Jerry is the same as the one which has the Greek caption on Vimeo (in fact, that's the one I used, I lowered the pitch so that its length is the same as the PAL version as in other footages and added the bass so that the audio quality would be a little bit better). Not sure why they reduced the sfx in the classic collection and the spotlight collection...
     
    #163 Charly9631, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  4. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    BTW, anyone here got all the 17 "The Ant and the Aardvark shorts with "laugh tracks"?
     
  5. Kevin Mo

    Kevin Mo @Bugssponge

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2016
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    21
    Those are really rare.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Daffyrocks

    Daffyrocks Woo-hoo-hooo!

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    209
    Yes, the CD does have the two Spyke and Tyke shorts :)

    And I don't have the other one, unfortunately.

    You can find TV versions of not only And and the Aardwark but also more MGM/United Artists Depatite-Freleng shorts (containing the laugh track) on this channel. :)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    And actually he had to add the laugh tracks by himself in certain episodes since they were poorly edited. And also he was the one who found lots of rare alternative titles (like Pink Blue Plate and Pink Campaign).
     
  8. A-Cecil

    A-Cecil Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    20
    As rare as these shorts are, the laugh-tracked versions of the shorts (including the Pink Panther shorts) are only seen in the anthology TV show "The Pink Panther Show".
     
  9. Daffyrocks

    Daffyrocks Woo-hoo-hooo!

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,330
    Likes Received:
    209
    Wait, aren't the laugh tracks original? How do you know that?
     
  10. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    As I said, just in certain episodes, he had to add the laugh tracks.
    Here's the description about his laugh tracks for ODD ANT OUT.
    2017-09-09 06.44.38.jpg
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    Just in case, here's an example of the Chuck Jones' short with removed MGM logo and the end screen (The Unshrinkable Mouse). It uses the Tom and Jerry title card from Tot Watchers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #171 Charly9631, Sep 10, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  12. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    TBH, most of the shorts looks pretty bad, especially in The Invisible Mouse. It looks pretty dark and dull. But one thing that made me impressed is how they removed the cue marks at the end of all the episodes featuring the Leo the Lion MGM logo.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. A-Cecil

    A-Cecil Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    20
    The reason why they look bad is because these 1960s MGM Lion logo prints were re-processed in Metrocolor, instead of preserving their original 3-strip Technicolor process.

    Back in the early days of television in the late-1950s and early-1960s, when film prints (regardless of any kind, studio, animation or live-action) were sold for television distribution, 16mm duplicate negatives of these films were used, and 16mm prints (perhaps, probably) didn't have access to the more superior Technicolor color process the original 35mm prints had; instead they had to settle for the more inferior color processes for television such as Eastmancolor or Metrocolor.

    1. The Eastmancolor prints darkens the colors and make the prints fade to red like extremes, to the point that it just hurts your eyes seeing how horribly faded it is. A lot of Paramount cartoons (including the Popeye shorts from the AAP package, which are currently owned by Turner like the classic MGM cartoons) and the pre-1948 Looney Tunes shorts suffer this severe fading on TV over the years due to the TV prints using Eastmancolor prints.

    2. The Metrocolor process makes these prints look bad, too, but in a different way, even though it at least looks slightly better than Eastmancolor prints; it darkens the dark colors to extremes, reduces the complexity of the 3-hue system (e.g. in the Metrocolor prints of Tom & Jerry shorts, Tom's original bluish-gray fur color is changed to very dark blackish-grey color), washes out the lighter and brighter colors, desaturates the color of the prints, and sometimes there is a slight yellow or red color bleed in the prints.

    Classic MGM cartoons when sold for TV or given theatrical re-releases in the 1960s, they were processed in Metrocolor. The 1960s MGM Cartoons Lion Logo seen in many of these prints are actually the same one as seen at the start of every single Tom and Jerry cartoon from the Gene Deitch era. There is no mention of the "Metrocolor" credit at the bottom of this logo, but its easy to tell anyway if you notice the darker colors in the transfer later on after the MGM Lion logo.
    1960s Metrocolor MGM Cartoons logo.png

    However when MGM and Turner later made new transfers for home video and television in around 1982, 1986, 1988 and 1995, they all use the 35mm 3-strip Technicolor prints. This explains why a good handful of video transfers of the mid-to-late-1980s tend to look pretty good, some look as great as the post-1948 Looney Tunes Laserdisc transfers of the late-1980s, such as The Framed Cat, One Cab's Family, Red Hot Rangers, etc.,
    LD.png

    and a large handful of Turner prints of the MGM cartoons tend to look really good, many looking far superior to the pre-1948 Looney Tunes shorts' Turner prints.
    TV.png

    It should be noted that since many of the pre-1951 MGM cartoons' original negatives are lost forever due to them being destroyed in the 1967 MGM Vault fire, the remasters of these shorts come from the 35mm safety negatives.

    Here's something interesting: All those classic MGM cartoons of the 1960s (especially the Gene Deitch and Chuck Jones-era Tom and Jerry shorts), although produced in Metrocolor, interestingly, the later unrestored transfers of these shorts used for video and TV for some reason don't quite look like faded Metrocolor prints; instead they look more like faded 3-strip Technicolor prints. This applies to both the Laserdisc and Turner prints, and the Turner prints of these 60s shorts tend to look really good. Take for example if you compare and contrast the colors of the Laserdisc and Turner prints of the Chuck Jones-era Tom and Jerry short "Ahh, Sweet Mouse-Story Of Life", you'll get what I mean about Metrocolor cartoons looking like 3-strip Technicolor cartoons;
    ASMSOL_LD.png
    ASMSOL_TV.png
    (Top: Laserdisc print from SBT, Bottom: Turner print from Cartoon Network Latin America)

    All the pre-1951 Tom and Jerry shorts (except for Mouse Cleaning), have been restored using CRI negative elements for the Golden Collection Blu-Ray/DVD releases (although Puss Gets The Boot, The Midnight Snack, Fraidy Cat, Dog Trouble and Puss n' Toots have already been restored prior for Spotlight Collection Volume 2 DVD, while Yankee Doodle Mouse, Mouse Trouble, The Cat Concerto, Dr Jekyll and Mr Mouse, The Little Orphan and Hatch Up Your Troubles have already been restored prior for Academy Awards Animation Collection DVD). However, 10 of the shorts from Golden Collection Volume 1 (Puss n' Toots, The Bowling Alley Cat, Sufferin' Cats, The Lonesome Mouse, The Zoot Cat, The Million Dollar Cat, Puttin' On The Dog, Mouse Trouble, Quiet Please!, The Milky Waif) were restored using 1960s Metrocolor prints (with the restored print of The Bowling Alley Cat looking the WORST on that Golden Collection Volume 1 release IMHO) while two shorts from Golden Collection Volume 2 (Heavenly Puss and Jerry's Diary) were horribly restored with dark colors (with Heavenly Puss looking the WORST on that Golden Collection Volume 2 release), probably due to the limitations with the CRI restoration process; where the lesser CRI elements couldn't be restored to be as pristine as those with more CRI elements.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    Exactly, I can't even stand those prints, especially the picture you guys posted like a year ago (Fraidy Cat). It's probably why CN Asia had never broadcast these shorts (Eastman Color) on television back then.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Cool_Cat

    Cool_Cat Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2015
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    97
    I corrected the color and contrast to each scene on the restored version of Jerry and Jumbo, and the results were higher than I expected.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This took me only 40 minutes. Proof WB doesn't want to put any care into cartoon classics.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Kevin Mo

    Kevin Mo @Bugssponge

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2016
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    21
    How did you do that?
     
  17. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    Can you also correct the color in the cinemascope shorts (Down Beat Bear, Blue Cat Blues, Barbecue Brawl and Mucho Mouse so that they look the same as in The art of Tom and Jerry)?
     
  18. Charly9631

    Charly9631 Think! Think! Think!

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    4
    And also, any idea for the color difference between TV version and the iTunes version of The Pink Panther series (also with The Inspector, The Ant and the Aardvark, etc.)?
     
  19. A-Cecil

    A-Cecil Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2016
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    20
    Actually WB used to put care into cartoon classics. And that was between 1997 to 2011, starting with the first restorations of selected Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Tweety & Sylvester, Road Runner and Speedy Gonzales cartoons of the 1950s to the mid-1960s for the Bugs & Friends European VHS tapes and the Japanese laserdisc set.

    The best restorations for the MGM cartoons are the following:
    1. The ones seen on the Academy Awards Animation Collection DVD set (except for Mouse Trouble and Quiet Please, which were badly restored with faded Metrocolor-like colors on the DVD set)
    2. Life With Tom, Puss Gets The Boot, The Midnight Snack, Fraidy Cat, Dog Trouble, and all the CinemaScope Tom and Jerry shorts on the Spotlight Collection DVD set.
    3. Dixieland Droopy and all 7 CinemaScope Droopy shorts on Droopy: The Complete Theatrical Collection DVD set.
    4. All 34 Chuck Jones-era Tom & Jerry shorts on Tom & Jerry: The Chuck Jones Collection DVD set.

    Tom & Jerry Golden Collection Volume 1 and 2 Blu-Ray/DVD releases has all the previously-restored-for-DVD Tom & Jerry shorts as mentioned above double-dipped on the sets, plus new restored transfers for the remainder not-yet-restored shorts at the time.

    The first volume's new transfers tend to look really good (e.g. The Bodyguard, Kitty Foiled, Springtime For Thomas, etc.), although a handful of the new transfers in Volume 1 appear to be badly restored as 1960s Metrocolor prints like Puss n Toots, Mouse Trouble and Quiet Please: The Bowling Alley Cat (worst one in Vol. 1 IMHO), Sufferin' Cats, The Lonesome Mouse, The Zoot Cat, The Million Dollar Cat, Puttin' On The Dog and The Milky Waif.

    Its the year 2012 that was the time as @Cool_Cat puts it that WB stopped caring of its cartoon classics for some unknown reason. This explains why a large handful of the restored post-48 Looney Tunes shorts since 2012 tend to look really dark and murky, as if the have been restored to death, and the Tom & Jerry Golden Collection Volume 2 new transfers tend to look darker than the new transfers seen on Golden Collection Volume 1. Its a massive shame that this happens.

    Examples of new transfers from Golden Collection Volume 2 having darker colors than Golden Collection Volume 1: Heavenly Puss (worst one in Vol. 2 IMHO), Jerry's Diary, Tennis Chumps, Saturday Evening Puss (w original Mammy footage & Mammy voice by Lillian Randolph intact), Texas Tom, Jerry & The Lion, Safety Second, The Framed Cat, Cue Ball Cat, Jerry & The Goldfish, Sleepy-Time Tom, His Mouse Friday (completely uncensored both audio and visually on home video for the very first time), Slicked-Up Pup, Nit-Witty Kitty, Cat Napping, Triplet Trouble, Fit To Be Tied, Push Button Kitty, Cruise Cat, Jerry & Jumbo and Puppy Tale.
     
    #179 A-Cecil, Sep 25, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  20. Cool_Cat

    Cool_Cat Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2015
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    97
    It looks like since 2012 they started restoring them on interpositives (to get rid of dirt easily) which have low contrast, but on many of them they cranked the contrast up to max so a lot of color information was gone. For an example I cannot correct Cat Napping, The Flying Cat or Cue Ball Cat unless WB sends me the raw scan. Shorts like Jerry and Jumbo were pretty much left untouched, so I was able to correct that one.

    And also, if the source is a non-Technicolor print (like Puttin on the Dog which looks Eastmancolor to me) my software can't do miracles. The color information simply isn't there. Those shorts need to be re shot.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page

  • Find Toonzone on Facebook

  • Toonzone News

  • Site Updates

    Upcoming Premieres

  • Toonzone Fan Sites


Tac Anti Spam from Surrey Forum