Marvel's Avengers: Secret Wars "Avengers No More, Parts 1-2" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by RoyalRubble, Jun 17, 2017.

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Rate and Discuss the Season 4 Premiere of "Avengers Assemble"!

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  1. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Some general thoughts on this double-episode, which I thought an inferior effort with a paper-thin plot, and horrible dialogue.

    * Ghost says the entire world knows about Stark being held in the other dimension. Why the heck would they inform the whole world (especially the part with villains in it)? Trying to bankrupt Stark Industries? I can just imagine the stock sell-off.
    * A Jane Foster who looks nothing like any of the other Janes Foster incarnations.
    * The pseudo-Stretch Armstrong goons were really... disappointing.
    * If only scientists in the Marvel Universe kept notes of what they built, and did backups of programming, like, y'know, responsible professionals. No prototype is irreplaceable unless one of the components (say, being powered by Thor's hammer) is irreplaceable. But no, apparently they don't keep notes, release versions, multiple prototypes in construction, a bill of materials... what the hell happens if they have a faulty power relay? Start all over? Ye Gods, the stupidity.
    * Scaring a firewall minion brain into surrender. Ye Gods, again!.
    * Not a big fan of the Enchantress' new swimsuit uniform.
    * Kang is still too big of a villain to play with the Cabal, even if he is a "young" Kang from the ...oh, 23rd Century? If he can manipulate the timestream (which is kind of the fundamental defining characteristic of a Kang from any century, then he could have gone back in time and taken Vibranium before mankind was able to stop him, for example.
    * Zola as a combatant seems mischaracterized and wrong. He's a brain with scientific schemes, and to reduce him to a ray-gun zapping idiot is an insult to the character.
    * And the trademark "Avengers standing in a circle" scene. /yawn
    * Sending Scourge after the Black Panther isn't really a fair fight; it's not like the entire Cabal could hold him. I guess the Leader's brain isn't very smart after all.
    * At least the Black Widow is not the only female Avenger anywhere.
    * The Enchantress seems a lot less intelligent in this incarnation. Or at least a lot lesws subtle than she has been portrayed elsewhere.
    * Oh look - the old Justice League "Switch Dancing Partners" tactic. /yawn again
    * The Leader really doesn't bring anything to the table - he's not that smart, his plan is insipid, and his leadership is non-existent. OK, so it is revealed that he's a dupe - but why did the other members of the Cabal need a dupe in the fist place? The overly-complex device used on the Avengers? Surely not - Kang could have looted something better elsewhere. Of course, all this might be revealed in the future why they needed a dupe instead of just doing without the so-called "Leader" - but as of now, he seems to be a really pointless and unnecessary complication.

    So... pretty much a failure from a writing standpoint, IMO. Not quite so bad that I couldn't finish, but close.
     
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  2. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    And I thought I was going to be the most critical opinion :p.
     
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  3. Mr.O

    Mr.O Active Member

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    It seems like they tried to improve on some aspects of the series, but the flaws were still very glaring. This is unfortunate because even though I don't watch this show, I do give its season premiers a chance. Looks like I won't be watching much of this season. :(
     
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  4. spyke

    spyke Well-Known Member

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    I found this episode to be surprisingly good, but with a few flaws.

    While the animation and fight scenes were pretty good, the dull/bland coloring and lack of shading once again prevents this show from looking really good, if not outright great. Also, the wide angle shots when they are fighting are kind of jarring and makes it harder (but not impossible) to tell what's going on. I also thought that the outcomes of some of the fights were kind of stupid and didn't make any logical sense (which some on this thread had already pointed out).

    For the most part, I liked the story and the portrayal of the characters. I liked this obvious retconned more comic book accurate and movie version of Ant-Man. I liked this version of Hope with Janet's personality (although I'd prefer if they had just used Jan). I liked Black Panther and Carol/Captain Marvel, but I think that she and BP are both bordering on (and at times, reached) Mary Sue/Gary Stu status. I liked the twist at the end with the villains. I thought that scene with Carol drinking a juice box in space was stupid as heck. I also hated the whole thing with everybody in the world knowing that Tony is stuck in another dimension and I hated how the writers (via the dialogue from the villains) made Iron Man out to be the greatest Avenger in the world and how the team couldn't function without him. Obviously they made him the "greatest Avenger" SOLELY because of his popularity in the movies, which is another reason to hate the synergy with the films.
     
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    #24 spyke, Jun 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  5. TheLemsterPju

    TheLemsterPju Well-Known Member

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    If anyone is curious, the writer for the first part has literally only written those stop motion "What The-?!" shorts on Marvel's YouTube channel. The second writer, for part two, has written some really bad TMNT 2k12 episodes.

    I still enjoyed these episodes regardless of the bad dialogue. At least it wasn't intolerable.
     
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  6. Capt.Traphouse

    Capt.Traphouse Sexiest Thing Since Sex

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    *Iron-Man is literally manipulated into two Civil Wars by the same being.

    Leader: "Maybe if Iron-Man was here you might have seen this coming."

    Stark must be the Rommel or Lee of the Avengers, well respected for little reason.
     
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  7. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Well, I get why they didn't use Hank or Jan; this is the "Marvel Cinematic Universe" version, with only really the same resemblance to the MU-616 that the movie-verse does, and so Hank and Jan as a pair are out (except for a 1960's or 1950s flashback appearance, perhaps).

    Hope as portrayed didn't seem much like the Hope in ANT-MAN, but with so little screen time, a comparison like that really isn't fair - we didn't get enough of the character to say much at all, for good or ill.

    Given that one of the purposes of the animated series is to reinforce brands for upcoming stuff, don't expect it to change anytime soon. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the "Writers Room", who have to work the characters that have not been released yet, and hope that the forthcoming movies bear some resemblance!

    Yeah, it's kind of hard to swallow, but the concept is supposed to enhance the drama of the "What if we never get Tony back?" over-arching plot theme they've got working. The fact of the matter is that the Avengers are bigger than any one hero, or any set of heroes - which is the contradicting other over-arching bit behind the "all-new, all different" Avengers team.

    Also, I think I know who the Big Bad behind the Cabal (I wish to heck they'd have used a different team name, so we don't have to specify which Cabal, but whatever...) actually is:

    Grandmaster!

    With the old Avengers team tossed back in time (at least, I thought I'd read that's what happened to them), we get to see the individual Avenger stories on how they survive and strive to get back. Grandmaster has the demonstrated capability to pluck alternate dimension creatures/heroes from across the timestream, so it would be easy for him to set up "tests" in different eras for the heroes to prove themselves worthy to become his pawns, and then pit Old Avenger VS New Avenger for the season finale, with the two teams subverting the challenge and working together to defeat him.

    It also has the added benefit of raising the Grandmaster brand before THOR: RAGNAROK is released.
     
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    #27 Medinnus, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  8. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    I did get the sense of some synergy with Ragnarok going on here.

    I mean, beyond Skurge showing up ahead of his movie debut, we have Thor getting separated from his hammer like he will be in the movie and being transported to a far-off world.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if (in the event the original Avengers are all separated into groups) he's paired with Hulk for the umpteenth time.

    Though I wonder how they're going to handle Jane as Thor because it's not like Thor has become Unworthy here like he was in the comics. Logically, even if Jane is worthy enough to pick it up, Thor should still be able to get it back by the time he's reunited with Mjolnir unless he willingly chooses not to.

    Though they could pull a Beta Ray Bill and have Odin forge Jane her own hammer so Thor can get Mjolnir back while she gets to stay a Thor. Heck, when it went off into space, I was half-thinking Mjolnir might be trying to find Bill before I realized Marvel Animation would probably never spotlight him :p.
     
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  9. Mr.O

    Mr.O Active Member

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    Completely forgot about the lack of Beta Ray Bill until you brought him up:(
     
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  10. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Beta Ray Bill will probably be another example of "hope you enjoyed his appearance in AEMH, cause you'll never see him else!". Unless he ends up in the MCU, in which case we'll see )

    In many ways, AEMH is the animated comic universe, and AA is the MCU; related, but totally separate.
     
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  11. JoeMabbon

    JoeMabbon Ex-Tyrant

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    I've been feeling that way about alot things recently. It's not even worth thinking about.
     
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  12. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    That's a shame, but I hope you've still been enjoying them in-spite of that :).

    It'll also leave you happier when you do finally watch something with an impressive story again ;).
     
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  13. Mr.O

    Mr.O Active Member

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    AA being tethered to the MCU isn't a bad thing in it self. I just wish the writers didn't speak down to kids so much. I live with and around plenty of children family members, as well as a few cartoon loving adults. And while I'd be lying if I said Avengers Assemble wasn't being watched at all by the kids (3 thru 13 yrs old), I can honestly say that Avengers is at the bottom of the barrel for them.

    As far as superhero cartoons go, it's under Guardians, USM, JLA, and Teen Titans Go!. That's write TTG! is more watched around here, and it isn't even particularly liked by anybody around here save for one person.

    These kids don't care whether it's based on the comic books or the Cinematic Universe.
     
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  14. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Oh, absolutely - the nature of my (pretty much continual) objections to AA have always been sloppy, slipshod writing. It was hard to go from something so very well-written (A:EMH) and then have to settle for condescending pablum, and have others pretend its steak. As always, YMMV )
     
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  15. TheLemsterPju

    TheLemsterPju Well-Known Member

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    Good to see some kids giving it a chance.

    Now if only we could get that and the rest of the Marvel animated stuff from the past 8 years back on Netflix...
     
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  16. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    I think the writing talking down to kids is an issue as well, and has been since Loeb took over, but I also think just how tethered AA is to the MCU creatively has been a problem to some degree.

    I mean, for one, sometimes it can feel like the narrative of the show is driven more by needing to tie-in to what the movies are doing rather then constructing a strong story or what makes the most sense in the series' building narrative.

    Thanos pops up in a post-credits scene? He gets to be a major villain in season 2. Ultron gets his own movie? He gets thrown in there as well and even gets to be the supposed main focus of an entire season named after him. There's a movie called Civil War out? Let's do a Civil War arc.

    This even effects what characters show up or who gets spotlighted more often then not. People in this thread have mentioned how refreshing it is to finally have a new Avengers team after being stuck with the original group across three seasons, but probably the only reason we're finally getting to see new heroes in the forefront is because they have or are going to have a movie coming out.

    It's the reason Ant-Man joined the team when he did and the reason all the other heroes (sans Kamala) popped up in Ultron Revolution seemingly out-of-nowhere like they've always been around. Why couldn't these characters been established earlier or had slower builds to their joining The Avengers? Because movie synergy.

    And then there's when the writing actively relies on assuming the audience has watched the movies when it comes to certain characters or contexts rather then the writing actually establishing it in the show itself.

    It took until the very, very end of season 3 for them to actually confirm that Ultron was a creation of Tony Stark in this continuity, and they've always been strangely vague about Vision and his possible connection to JARVIS who vanished for seemingly no reason. On-top of Ant-Man now acting like a totally different character then he has in past seasons (complete with a new voice actor) so that he better matches the movies.

    Conversely, while Guardians of the Galaxy is obviously inspired by the movie version, it does not feel as beholden to it or what the movies are doing. So it allows them to take more from the comics and do more world and character-building then it would have been able to if it had to match the movies. It's part of why I think Guardians is probably he strongest written of all the current Marvel cartoon and the one with the most original identity outside the movie.

    But I think you also bring up something that's true is that kids don't really care about the cartoons matching the movies or the comics, they just care for good, fun, cartoons. So this show could've used Janet instead of Hope "It's about darn time" Van Dyne as The Wasp and kids wouldn't bat an eye as long as she was as cool and entertaining a character as she was in EMH.
     
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  17. trance2009

    trance2009 Fun to play with not to eat

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    No kids don't care but nowadays they know older folks watch these cartoons now.

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    Well, really its more of a "we don't have a lot of exposure to good animated writing, so we really can't tell the difference", which is sometimes cured with experience and exposure. And sometimes, people get so enthusiastic about the [awful] writing that they feel defensive and compelled to defend it so they don't feel dumb about liking it.

    As a fan of the movie "The Phantom: The Ghost Who Walks", Doc Savage", and "Big Trouble In Little China", I have a lot of experience with the phenomenon and being able to say "Yeah, it's pretty bad - I love it anyways, though."
     
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    #38 Medinnus, Jun 28, 2017
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  19. Mr.O

    Mr.O Active Member

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    I agree with you . It's just that I feel that if AA had writers who were good/gave a darn about their show, It would soften the sting of synergy greatly.

    Take Thanos from that terrible, terrible Infinity Gauntlet arc. Yeah he was shoehorned for corporate reasons, but it wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they written him with half a functioning brain and an actual threat. (Guardians wrote him much better IMHO). And yes, GOTG is the most well like Marvel cartoon around here, according to my observations:)


    I can attest to this. I introduced three of my younger sibling to Spectacular Spider-man, X-men Evolution, and Iron Man AA, (shows they missed out on) they quickly became obsessed with these shows, which is much more than I can say they feel about Marvels current fare.
     
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  20. macattack

    macattack I see you!
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    Sigh. I wish I would stop checking into this show.

    I'm not going to go into my problems with the dialogue as that's already been said ad nauseum.

    The way they got rid of the old cast was extremely forced. Basically a thin excuse to get them out of the way and get the new crowd in. There's better ways to do a cast shuffle and this wasn't remotely close to any of them.

    Also, the new cast is plagued with likability issues. Carol and Hope are both jerks, Carol more so. Black Panther with his growling feels at odd with the proud king he's supposed to be, it's just off-putting. Ant-Man is basically Paul Rudd with a jug of immaturity thrown in. Vision is kind of just there. The only two characters with a decent personality are Kamala (who logically should've even be here), and Jane (and that's gonna go out the window in favor of half-baked Thor-isms the moment she becomes Fem-Thor and we all know it). Will kids care? The original squad has had the same issues for 3 seasons and it hasn't stopped this show from continuing, so maybe not.

    This was such a narrative disaster of a season opening though. I'm just... why.
     
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