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Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by James Harvey, May 3, 2013.
Abysmal? As in "really bad"? I can't believe everybody hated USM!
Happy to hear there will be a second season for both shows.
Avengers Assemble does have serial storytelling though, or did you miss the whole Red Skull and his cabal plot?
Show me a source to these abysmal ratings.
Actually i've been finding it annoyingly hard to find ratings info. Its easy to get info about Cartoon Network, but finding the ratings info for the marvel shows is a chore. For USM, most recent info i could find is here. it claims its a rating success with 600,000 viewers but i'm not really sure if that's a ratings hit. Lab Rats on disney XD gets 1.4 million (for some reason they make it easy to find info on their ratings), and When the USM premiered in the UK it got 1.2 million... so 600,000 actually sounds pretty bad or mediocre unless it was only for a particular age group... Of course i also can't find the ratings for a lot of other shows so i'm not even sure what's considered "average" or "bad" for Disney XD; something like 1.4 million might consider usually high, while 600k could be above average
And? They are just showing how Red Skull is forming his own team, when he does it will just be regular episodes with schemes of how to conquer the world or destroy the Avengers, kinda reminds me of G.I. Joe and Transformers from the 80's, also remember that Loeb isn't gonna make story arcs on AA.
Probably Disney and Marvel doesn't accept the fact that their current shows are mediocre so they are saying they are getting good ratings.......i think the true reason is the merchandise, do remember that some networks don't give a dang on ratings, it's all about the merchandise.
And that by its definition is serial storytelling and an ongoing story arc.
Is there any actual substance or any data to back that up?
Uh yeah.........that reply was meant for Monte's comment also added the word "probably" where ratings might not be good but doesn't matter for Disney because of the merchandise.
FINALLY. SOMEONE ELSE SAYS THIS BESIDES ME. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING SINCE AVENGERS ASSEMBLE HAS BEGUN. THANK YOU.
This is not a story arc, anyone who says it is are kidding themselves. It's every bit as serialized as Skeletor trying to kill He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. True story arcs and serials require actual character development and story progression. There is none of that in Avengers Assemble or USM, and only a small amount in Agents of SMASH (very likely because Man of Action is not involved on the latter show).
The merchandise sales for USM and Avengers Assemble are quite good from what I understand. Even if ratings are abysmal, if merch sales matter more, they're going to keep the cartoons alive.
SMASH does not have a merch line so it must stay alive on account of ratings.
And there is a possibility that the toys are selling not because of the cartoons, but because it's the avengers in account of the movie. The only toy that resembles the cartoon is Captain America and the Falcon while the rest look like the films and Marvel Now costume designs
And the fact that Spider-Man is a toy seller and a merchandising behemoth, his basically John Cena LOL, kids love Spider-Man.
And yes Avengers Assemble has an arc, but not in serial story telling form, like I said before it's a simple story arc that can keep us in. But it's done in a way that if you missed an episode it doesn't matter. You can still watch out of order but you would still have to watch the first two episode before the rest, from what we have seen so far anyways.
And who knows if their is a season 2 they could surprise us but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Yes there is. Falcon is getting more used to being around his idols and becoming an Avenger. His confidence is building. Sounds like character development to me. Falcon is getting more used to being an Avenger.
Story progression. Let's see. Dracula after getting stomped by the Avenger is now going to join Red Skull later on.
More story progression. Justin Hammer builds the Super Adaptoid to try and prove his worth to the Cabal. That fails. Instead, MODOK acquires the Adaptoid technology and uses it himself on the Avengers later.
There are many instances of this in Ultimate Spider-Man as well. How is what has happened between Norman Osborn, Harry, and Peter Parker not been an ongoing story arc as well as shown character development and progression?
You know what show was mostly one off episodes that could always be aired out of order? A little show called Batman: Brave and The Bold. Avengers Assemble doesn't exactly fit that format.
A show that fits your above description, BEWARE THE BATMAN.
Beware The Batman so far you have to follow it in order, it has a big sense of fluidity in it's story telling.
And the simple fact on why Beware The Batman is so watchable is simple, it's a mature show just the way we like it.
And it stays crunchy, even in milk!
It's like saying the Hulk is getting used to be with the Avengers, every show has character development, it's not new. we are talking about story arcs not character development.
If you call that story progression.........The Super adoptoid didn't come much purpose on the 2nd appearance, you would think they would come up with something big but it was just disappointing, USM does have but unfortunately just like with Generator Rex they focus on fillers or stories that doesn't go anywhere, the only thing that went far for a story arc is with the whole Norman Osborn and Sinister Six but that's about it and sorry to say they are not that memorable as others i have seen.
Here is what he said: "True story arcs and serials require actual character development and story progression. There is none of that in Avengers Assemble or USM"
So that is what I was responding to.
It is story progression. You can say it was disappointing, but that is an opinion. How is it not story progression? Something that happened in a previous episode directly led into what a character was doing in the next one.
Is it it not progression for Dracula to be persuaded to working with the Red Skull and trying to get vengeance again on the Avengers later after they starched him?
There are many other instances of ongoing story arcs in Ultimate Spider-Man besides what is mentioned above.
The critics are saying the show doesn't have these things at all when that is factually incorrect.
Also how do you know the things we've seen in Avengers so far aren't going anywhere? The show's only 8 episodes in of a 26 episode season. And it's probably already been renewed. It's not a valid comparison to compare it to say 60 episodes of Generator Rex.
Why would anyone hate this, Ultimate Spider-Man, or Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H.? Just because they're done by the same crew who last worked on Ben 10 and Generator Rex?
If you ask me, Marvel Universe is the only good thing about Disney XD. That totally makes up for the channel itself replacing Toon Disney, in my opinion.
Nobody actually hates Hulk and the Agent of Smash it's just that it's more geared towards kids than a combination of kids, teens and adults like past shows have done.
It's unnecessary cause next yeah we are having Star Wars Rebels and that show is going to be a mature show cause it's rating is TV-PG which to be honest Marvel cartoons should be.
And we know they can do better cause Marvel's characters are so interesting that it's a real miss opportunity.
As for USM it's just not Spider-Man in our minds, it's not the character we know and love and kids of this generation are missing out cause Spectacular Spider-Man, a show before this really captured the character and it's small world.
USM is more of an advertisement of the Marvel Universe rather than a personal journey that made the character so popular in the first place.
That's just me but I am not far from the truth.
My opinion - and lets be clear, its JUST my opinion! - is that people resent USM because its so (another opinion) inferior to Spectacular Spider-Man, which was (so some say) cancelled so that Marvel Studios could do its own Spider-Man cartoon, just as some consider Avengers Assemble to have been the unfair death-knell for Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They are pre-disposed to be harsh for HASMASH (there just is NO good acronym for that show) as under Loeb's regime two superior shows were cancelled to make way for mediocre replacements. They are pre-desposed to dislike anything that comes from the Loeb hierarchy, in which the MoA figure prominently.
Let me make it clear - I do not share this opinion. But others here and in other venues seem to hold it.
Everything MOA has done has had "story progression". Every season finale and season premiere there's usually a status quo change of some kind. But there's no real character development. Rex and Ben never moved out of their default personalities, they never seemed to learn anything from what they experienced. The characters just refused to grow, whether hero or villain. Even Agent 6, when he got some character development, was knocked into amnesia-mode and reverted to how he was at the start of Generator Rex. It's not quite like status quo is God on MOA productions but it gets pretty damn close because very little of what the characters go through and learn seem to stick, except for the season premieres and finales. Then there's usually a status quo change but the characters don't really change with the status quo, and said status quo tends to stay static for the entire season. Hell, Ben 10 never moved out of that summer trip with Grandpa until Dwayne McDuffie and his crew moved in and took over the show beginning with Alien Force.
What I mean is something meaningful. Spectacular Spider-Man is a textbook example of how to stay accessible throughout a show's run while having the characters grow and change and keep things from settling into a status quo. X-Men Evolution also did a good job of this through that show's run, after the first season the show refused to settle into a permanent status quo.
I mean, New York City has been nearly destroyed a zillion times by now already on Avengers Assemble, but the city never shows any weariness from this. Though maybe that's why the streets are almost always deserted. People are so sick of it all they moved out of the city. =P
That's pretty much the nail on the head with the USM. It's not about Peter's journey as much as being an advertisement for the entire Marvel Universe. Man of Action even admitted they were barred from using almost every single Spider-Man character in the first season and they're still blocked from using the majority of the franchise. By executive decision USM is an advertisement for the wider Marvel Universe and will not explore Spider-Man's own interesting world.
I find the bonding and the progression Spider-Man has made with his team along with his relationship with Harry pretty meaningful. It appears you have a personal bias against Man of Action and say everything they do is bad and has no progression or meaning. Hence you point to Spectacular Spider-Man.
Streets seem populated pretty consistently throughout Avengers Assemble, so I'm not sure what you are going on about there. And it doesn't seem much different than Earth's Mightiest Heroes which had New York or the world almost ending about every week. In the premiere, a villain lifted the city out of the freaking ocean. After that, I would've left the city and gone to Austin and never looked back. And this is the bias talking. A pointed complaint toward Avengers Assemble that can be also redirected at Earth's Mightiest Heroes or just about any other superhero or action cartoon for that matter. It's an odd complaint.
Last season built up to a finale involving Doctor Octopus and Green Goblin. This season had a big buildup to the Sinister Six showdown. And then another showdown with the Green Goblin. We've gotten a great mix of both the Spider-Man realm and also the Marvel Universe. What is wrong with a show exploring outside of the Spider-Man rogues gallery anyway? It's something we hadn't really seen much of in animation. Personally, my favorite episodes of the 1990's show were the team-ups with the X-Men and then Spidey teamed up with Iron Man, Captain America, and many others.
This season they also introduced Man Wolf.
Let's also not forget Sandman, who everyone freaked out about when they first saw the clips and assumed they RUINED the character by making him a kid.
And you seem to go more in favor with Man of Action yet we don't say anything to it, Macattack has his opinion, the same with you about the shows and MOA involvement. I agree with Mac, when it comes to stories MOA always go for the status quo and they really went on it with Generator Rex. I have watched the 2 episodes of Spectacular Spider-Man and already feel that the writing blows off an entire season of USM, this is my personal opinion can't say the same to others.