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Justice League "Wild Card" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by Bird Boy, Dec 6, 2003.

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Rate and Post Your Comments on "Wild Card"

  1. *****

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  2. **** 1/2

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  3. ****

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  4. *** 1/2

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  11. Well that sucked.

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  1. Bobbywoodhogan

    Bobbywoodhogan I Will Find Him!

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    didn't he? cant say I noticed but if he didn't that sucks.
     
  2. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    I'm pretty sure the only time Joker did his trademark laugh on Justice League was at the end of "Injustice For All" Part One when he ambushes Batman and empties out debris from his bag.
     
  3. JTMarsh

    JTMarsh Wing Commander

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    In the Bold: yeah, that was pretty annoying at times.
     
  4. Dusty

    Dusty Superman.

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    I thought I was the only one who felt this way about JL/JLU. BT and CO. are awesome but they do not know how to handle the character of Superman IMO,
    I loved a few JL season 2 episodes but when Superman started talking so arrogantly and acting like an ape I sort of stopped tuning in, anyways back on topic this episode was pretty good, atleast they made Superman kinda cool, (but I still hate the re-design of his face, he looks like he is 14 yrs old,) I give the episode 3 out of 5 stars,


    D.
     
  5. BigFatHairyDeal

    BigFatHairyDeal Defender of the Universe

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    I think fan reaction to the above tends to get a little overstated, in general. That said, it has happened on a few occasions, and yeah, it's fairly disappointing unless that's part of they way you get your kicks from DCAU.

    Back in the day, when Jump the Shark was still an active website, let alone a popular one, they used to insist that the moment a couple on the verge of a relationship eventually achieve one that the show took a turn for the worse. I sort of understand, but at the same time, I sort of don't. I don't know why inevitabilities need to be pushed off as long as possible, and as the old lady said once she finally won the sucker bet known as a slot machine, "Finally!" Of course, little would I know that their relationship would hit the complexity it would be the end of the show's run, but since it wasn't necessarily at the forefront of the show (i.e. you could have a dozen straight episodes without referencing it) I kind of just wanted it to happen ASAP and move on from there.
     
  6. Bobbywoodhogan

    Bobbywoodhogan I Will Find Him!

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    It just seemed to me that they'd totally screw over Superman (i.e. War World) then they'd give us a [REMOVED] episode to apologise (i.e. Twilight) and then things would eventually just go back to normal. I love Batman don't get me wrong but he doesn't have the impact on other heroes the way Superman does. Superman is the best of the best hes the one who sets the standard, hes the one who people listen to, it just bugged me how often he played second fiddle to Batman.
     
  7. Wonderwall

    Wonderwall Moderator
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    I agree with that statement mostly for the fact that this crew is hardly the first who have presented him in that way nor the most blatant. I never had a problem with the way they used Bats on JL/JLU. So I guess in a sense I did my kicks from that:p

    It could be worse, he could be shunning his teenage clone;) I kid I kid.

    Anyway as for this episode it's a lot of fun and one of my favorites throughout the show's run. If it wasn't for Starcrossed this would probably be my favorite episode of the original JL run. Joker is great in it and I like the clock thing( even if they had to fudge the timing on part 2 ) and I thought the Royla FLush Gang was a nice addition.
     
  8. Dallas Kinard

    Dallas Kinard Active Member

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    Does anyone else believe that Ace kills the Joker in this? I personally do. I try to keep visual consistency in my head-canon dcau. So I count TNBA as an era that spans all the way to Static Shock (with the exception of the JL crossovers) and the ROTJ flashback. I have my own viewing order that lays it all out much better than I can explain on here.

    With that said, I believe that the real Joker is killed by Tim Drake in ROTJ and that marks the end of TNBA era. Then the Joker we see in Justice League is simply a 2nd cadmus clone that was created using an un-identified specimen by Joker during his time working on Drake - it's not a stretch to think he'd make more than one clone of himself. This keeps both "deaths" canon and explains why Joker is never seen again in Justice League, while also keeping visual continuity so many people want. Thoughts?
     
  9. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Not at all. Ace was forced to be a killer by the government. I think she roughed up the Joker but wouldn't go as far to kill him. I settled on thinking the Joker eventually recovering and enacting a couple more schemes before the events of the ROTJ flashback.
     
  10. iammattie

    iammattie Member

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    While your theory is...... Interesting (to say the least) I think there are more than a few things you aren't taking into consideration here. I'll try to lay out the evidence. I've noticed you consider the BAV2 comics in your headcanon:
    With that in mind let's turn to Batman Adventures Volume 2 #15. This comic picks up on the events of Freeze's story following Gotham Adventures #51, which picks up one year from the events of Gotham Adventures #5, which in turn follows up two years after the events of Deep Freeze. I merely just bring this up to say if Adventures Volume 2 is in, so is Gotham Adventures. With that point being made, I'm now going to point out that Gotham Adventures 4 is set during the events of Batman Adventures: The Lost Years, so that's in as well.

    In that run of comics we're given the fact that Dick Grayson's graduation is set in 1997, it's also been over 850 days before he returns to gotham. Most people graduate in the month of May, so if we add that 850 to a non-distinct day in May we get between August 29th-September 28th, 1999. I'm bringing this up because the timeline is a largely important part of why this theory doesn't work.

    Real quick timeline from what we just established:

    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51

    Heat is mentioned a lot in Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15, so let's assume it's summer. We aren't given an exact year but 2001 is a good guess (the premise of the story is Nora following up on letters from Freeze that she found in GA #51 and it would make sense not to take too much time on that.) To cement that guess a little bit more though, we know that the first couple issues of BA Vol 2 happen late in the year (see New Year's story in issue #10) and we're also told it's a presidential election year in issue #3 Soooooooo......


    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15

    We then get confirmation in Volume 2 #5 that the League is active and these events are sometime between The Enemy Below and before JLU due to Eel O'Brien not yet being Plastic Man. So if the League is present around November/December 2000 already, and Secret Origins has a 6 month jump between the intro scene of Batman/Superman and the rest of the story, the latest that initial scene can occur is May/June 2000. To help narrow that down even more, we know Paradise Lost is 8 months after Wonder Woman Leaves in Secret Origin and is during Hurricane season (in 2001 this was from June-Dec). 8 months earlier would be October 2000-April 2001. Since we already determined the league exists prior to december all the 2001 dates can be discarded. So the rest of secret origins is oct-december at some point, meaning that the earliest the six months prior could be is april. This starts to derail your point of "all tnba suit stuff happens before all JL suit stuff" way of thinking because

    You Scratch My Back occurs in April (A ship called little angels is due in today from Buenos Aires here's the shipping schedule with dates) Cult of the cat is in the next month (May) and Never Fear is over summer break.

    So let's recap:

    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    April 2000 - You Scratch My Back
    Between April-June 2000 - Secret Origins intro
    May - Cult of the Cat
    Summer 2000 - Never Fear
    Oct-Dec 2000 - Secret Origins
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    June-August 2001 - Paradise Lost
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15

    So already, we have TNBA and JL suit events occurring at the same time. From there, we have Static Shock's Brother-Sister Act occuring in 2001 (Y2K, Last Year) I don't own the season one set yet so sorry I don't have screenshots. I've seen your timeline on the DCAU wiki thread though and I guess I even missed that it's college basketball season which could potentially be Jan-March or Nov-Dec (depending which season it is. they overlap years). However we do know a few things about Static: He became static when he was 14 and he wasn't yet 16 when he met Green Lantern in Fallen Hero. So everything from Shock to the System up to Fallen Hero occurs over two years. If he was 13 going on 14 the year of the big bang rather than 14 about to turn 15, it would be something like:

    Year 1 (2000 or 2001): Virgil becomes static late in the year (see homecoming)
    By late Year 2 (2001 or 2002) Virgil is 15
    Before late year 3 (2002-2003) Last time virgil sees Green Lantern for the last time before Once and Future thing. He's yet to turn 16.

    So now, let's add it all to the timeline! I'll give the earliest possible dates in hopes of helping you with the TNBA suit appearances being as close to TNBA as possible

    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    April 2000 - You Scratch My Back
    Between April-June 2000 - Secret Origins intro
    May - Cult of the Cat
    Summer 2000 - Never Fear
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Oct-Dec 2000 - Secret Origins
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    June-August 2001 - Paradise Lost
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero

    So Static has to meet Batman, and the Justice League between September 2000 and Early/Mid 2002 which has Batman in his TNBA suit well after what we've confirmed the TNBA era. So "design consistency" doesn't work, but for the sake of your theory working without that being the reason, let's move into the BB/TZP part of the timeline.

    We know Zeta goes renegade August 5th, 2041 (Quality Time. Once again, sorry I don't own the new DVD set of Season 2) we know from Zeta that was 6 days ago. So Zeta occurs on August 11th, 2041.

    We know that Wayne-Powers is over by the time of Return of the Joker and it returns to Wayne Enterprises (My laptop doesn't play bluray so no screenshots again. sorry) so Everything in BB up to King's Ransom happens before then, including Zeta, and Everything in Zeta up to at least Shadows occurs before then (There's a Wayne-Powers mention in the episode). If we're going by Production order is chronological order for those two series that's 22 full episodes before the movie. not sure an exact amount of time passed because it's been a while since i've watched both series, but let's say it's late 2041 maybe early 2042. In the movie, Tim Drake tells us the flashback was "almost 40 years ago" so it seems 35-39 years ago would be the case. 2002 is now the earliest and 2007 the latest that the flashback can happen. so now we're looking at:


    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    April 2000 - You Scratch My Back
    Between April-June 2000 - Secret Origins intro
    May - Cult of the Cat
    Summer 2000 - Never Fear
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Oct-Dec 2000 - Secret Origins
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    June-August 2001 - Paradise Lost
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker

    I know that the timeline has yet to touch Joker's JLU appearances in Injustice For All and Wild Cards, so let's try placing those now working backwards from JLU!

    We know that a large plot point in JLU is Lex running for president. We've already confirmed one presidential election in November 2000, so this must be the election for November 2004. We just went through an election, so I'm sure you recall people usually announce the year before, but just in case: Ted Cruz, first major candidate in the race, announced March 2015 and primaries start usually early in the year of the election, so when Lex announced his presidency in The Doomsday Sanction, we can confirm that's 2003, the year before the election. In I Am Legion we're told he was arrested for the Braniac business last summer. So we know the last few episodes of the season were before September 23rd. Patriot Act further confirms those events were last year, Waller and Eiling hadn't seen eachother for "[a] few months", and that Eiling's Cadmus codes were changed six months ago. So if Question Authority/Flashpoint/Panic in the Sky/Divided We Fall occurs before September 23rd, then Patriot Act occurs by March. That's a lot of information so let me recap:

    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    April 2000 - You Scratch My Back
    Between April-June 2000 - Secret Origins intro
    May - Cult of the Cat
    Summer 2000 - Never Fear
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Oct-Dec 2000 - Secret Origins
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    June-August 2001 - Paradise Lost
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    2003 - Doomsday Sanction
    Summer 2003 - Question Authority/Flashpoint/Panic in the Sky/Divided We Fall
    by March 2004 - I Am Legion
    by March 2004 - Patriot Act
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker

    So, sick! we've got a decent portion of JLU placed! now we can place the start of JLU and the end of JL! To Another Shore, set between I Am Legion and Patriot Act tells us that J'onn has been in the tower doing monitor duty for almost two years now. This means that JLU started in 2002 at some point with Initiation. So, with that in mind, we've got Comfort and Joy from JLU having to take place in December, before the December of 2002, but after the December of 2000 so of course, December 2001! This is the first we see of John and Shayera's relationship blossoming. We then hear in Starcrossed that it's playoff season. The latest playoffs I can find for 2002 is the NHL playoffs (April 17th-June 13th). Since we see more of John and Shayera's relationship in Wild Cards, we know it has to occur between those two episodes (Dec 2001-June 13th 2002). As for Injustice For All, I guess you could pull it up that far if you reeeeeeealllly wanted to, but there's no evidence for that. Seeing as it was produced between Secret Origins and Paradise Lost however, it makes sense to occur between October 2000-August 2001. So, Let's throw it on the board!

    1997 - Deep Freeze
    May 1997 - Dick graduates and leaves
    Late August-September 1999 - TNBA starts around
    1999 - Gotham Adventures #5
    April 2000 - You Scratch My Back
    Between April-June 2000 - Secret Origins intro
    May - Cult of the Cat
    Summer 2000 - Never Fear
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Oct-Dec 2000 - Secret Origins
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #3
    Past Nov 7th, 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #5
    Winter 2000 - Gotham Adventures #51
    December 31st 2000 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #10
    2000/2001 - Injustice For All
    June-August 2001 - Paradise Lost
    Summer 2001 - Batman Adventures Vol 2 #15
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    December 24th-25th 2001 - Comfort and Joy
    December 25th 2001-June 13th 2002 - Wild Cards
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    As late as June 13th 2002 - Starcrossed
    2002 - Initiation
    2003 - Doomsday Sanction
    Summer 2003 - Question Authority/Flashpoint/Panic in the Sky/Divided We Fall
    by March 2004 - I Am Legion
    by March 2004 - To Another Shore
    by March 2004 - Patriot Act
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker

    So, I guess technically if you really were trying to push it, RotJ's flashback could occur prior to Wild Cards, but there's now 0 reason for that seeing as the "design has to be the same" argument has been blown up. Besides, if we were to move all the TNBA batsuit stuff together anyway Gear's suits would be out of order anyway so design is screwed up anyway.


    If you wanted the TL:DR version though:

    "It hasn't happened yet. I'd be surprised if our "present" ever caught up with Return of the Joker. I'm confident that the Joker will recover from his drubbing at Ace's hands and bedevil Batman many more times before tht final battle." - Dwayne McDuffie
     
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  11. Dallas Kinard

    Dallas Kinard Active Member

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    Wow That was a lot of typing! Kudos to you man! I actually USED to count the comics as canon, but now, I personally don't include them. I appreciate this post and all the time and effort you put into it though! As for the gear thing, either way, it's not ideal. Either Batman is in the wrong suit, or Gear is. I think since Batman is more prominent, we can forgive the color change in Gear's outfit.
     
  12. iammattie

    iammattie Member

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    One of those quotes about Poison Ivy's fate you literally post last week though? but i digress, we could also use Supergirl's age for a basis of time movement! So we already know that Initiation all the way to To Another Shore is 2 years of time. We know that 6 episodes later is her 21st birthday. So she was 19 when she joined the League. We then are told that Kara was around for 3 years prior to her JLU debut. So, she was 16 in Little Girl Lost. For further evidence we can look at her official bio, or the Supergirl Adventures #21 (written by the writers of Little Girl Lost) that mentions she's not quite 13 yet when krypton blows up and she gets put on ice 4 years later. I know, i know..... comics don't count this week, but I include that because seeing as it was written by the same team who wrote the episode it shows their intent for how old she was, and as pointed out it's corroborated by the shows and the bio. Okay, so now we have three sources all pointing to there being five years of time between LGL and Far From Home. We already went over the span of time in JLU and the election year and yadda yadda yadda, so we can conclude Far From home happens in 200x where x is a number divisible by 4, and LGL is five years prior. So let's start the board! I'll be keeping the Static/Zeta/BB stuff on it since I didn't use any comics for those dates


    200x-5 - Little Girl Lost
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    200x-2 - Initiation
    200x - To Another Shore
    200x - Far From Home
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker

    Now, the next bit of evidence. We know from World's Finest that a decent portion of STAS and TNBA run concurrently. We see in Cold Comfort a recording of Bruce Wayne holding a check dated 8-20-97. If we interpret this as live footage, then that's the date of that episode. If we interpret it as a prior recording the episode can happen later. Either way, we've got the date of 8-20-97 as being somewhere around or prior to STAS/TNBA time. add five years to it, and we've skipped the 2000 election, but we're only 2 years from the 2004 election. So, it would seem to make sense that LGL would be 99 and thus JLU 2002-2004. So let's update the board!


    August 97 (or later) - Cold Comfort
    Spring 1999 - Little Girl Lost
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    2002 - Initiation
    2004 - To Another Shore
    2004 - Far From Home
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker

    Now, once again we have to find JL's placement. We know from The Return that Tabula Rasa was "months" ago. Those events occur between Initiation and Doomsday Sanction (which we'll keep in 2003 because so far my JLU dates are still lining up) so if we're to go the loosest possible route and say 11 months ago was Tabula Rasa, that puts us in 2002 still for JL. obviously, that episode occured before Comfort and Joy so the 2002 doesn't work because of the Christmas. So once again, that Christmas is 2001 and my previous JL dates remain in tact. So let's add them all to the board!

    August 97 (or later) - Cold Comfort
    Spring 1999 - Little Girl Lost
    May-Oct 2000 - Secret Origins Intro (6 months before episode)
    September 2000 - Shock to the System
    Nov 2000-Apr 2001 - Secret Origins (8 months before PL)
    Jun-Dec 2001 - Paradise Lost (Hurricane Season)
    between July-Dec 2001 - Tabula Rasa
    Late 2001-Early 2002? - Fallen Hero
    December 24th-25th 2001 - Comfort and Joy
    December 25th 2001-June 13th 2002 - Wild Cards
    2002-2007 - Return of the Joker Flashback
    As late as June 13th 2002 - Starcrossed
    2002 - Initiation
    between June-Nov 2002 - The Return
    2003 - Doomsday Sanction
    Summer 2003 - Question Authority/Flashpoint/Panic in the Sky/Divided We Fall
    by March 2004 - I Am Legion
    by March 2004 - To Another Shore
    by March 2004 - Patriot Act
    Spring 2004 - Far From Home
    August 5th 2041 - Zeta goes renegade
    August 11th, 2041 - Zeta
    August 11th-??? - 22 Episodes of Zeta and Batman Beyond
    Late 2041-Early 2042? - Return of the Joker


    Soooooo, no matter how you slice it, the Static appearances of Batman have to occur during JL time

    Not to come off as rude, but this explanation is bollocks and sounds like you're saying "design matters, but only when I want it to, so it can support a theory that there's absolutely 0 evidence for, but loads of evidence to the contrary.

    And as I already pointed out, Dwayne McDuffie already stated ROTJ is past Wild Cards.
     
  13. Dallas Kinard

    Dallas Kinard Active Member

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    No offense, but you are coming off quite aggressive here. Yes, you have facts, but I don't really appreciate the demeaning tone you are giving off. I have considered ALL of the facts you stated above and I have Static Shock beginning in 1998 and ending in 2003 (8th - 12th grade). Trust me, I've made it all work as best I can.
     
  14. iammattie

    iammattie Member

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    That doesn't work though. Brother-Sister Act, Episode 16, states Y2K was last year. So essentially what you're saying is the previous 15 episodes took place over 1998-2000? but that still doesn't touch any of the Batman team ups (Richie wasn't gear yet in that episode). We also get told in Flashback that the Big Bang was 2 years ago, so by your count, that episode would happen in 2000, before Brother-Sister Act, so now Richie is Gear and then isn't Gear. We also still have to deal with the comments about Static's age. He's 14 in Shock to the System (98 by your count) 15 in Fallen Hero (by your count could be as late as 2000) and now all of a sudden Richie is Gear again before he isn't in Brother-Sister Act.

    This still doesn't touch the fact that the earliest Return of the Joker's flashback can happen is in 2002 which we've already established to be between Comfort and Joy and some point in JLU's run. It legitimately just can't work out, and you're bending over backwards ignoring evidence from all over the place to try and hold a theory together that there's absolutely 0 evidence for other than "they made a flashback to post-JLU time before JLU was a thing so they didn't have batman in the right clothes and for some reason in my mind he can't just change clothes."

    Once again, you're also ignoring Dwayne McDuffie who worked on both Justice League and Static Shock and stated ROTJ hasn't happened, which means the Joker on both of his shows were the same Joker. not a clone.

    It was an interesting fan theory, but the thing about fan theories are if the facts don't line up then they don't work.
     
  15. Dallas Kinard

    Dallas Kinard Active Member

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    Ok listen, I've done my research. I follow production order, which you clearly don't. It's taken me years of research and I know about everything you're saying already. Trust me, I've made it work. Don't believe me? You don't have to. I can always post my timeline here if the mods let me.
     
  16. Neo Ultra Mike

    Neo Ultra Mike Creeping Shadow of "15000"+ Posts

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    No I don't because the creative staff at the DCAU have stated several times that the flashback in Return of the Joker takes place AFTER Justice League/Justice League Unlimited (thus why Joker has his Justice League era design in that movie not his TNBA design) as that battle is suppose to be the last one with the regular Joker. And that Joker since then hasn't been brought back or revived properly thus Bruce's shock at seeing him in ROTJ and even ideas of him being a clone or something there are tossed out. Plus there are other factors.

    1. There is no way "Wild Cards" takes place AFTER that flashback scene since even if The Joker there was a clone... after what happened in the ROTJ flashback scene there is no way Bruce/Batman wouldn't take anything the Joker does super seriously clone or not thus wouldn't treat him taking these super powered experimental Cadmus group as pedestrian as he does.

    2. The ROTJ flashback also says that after that battle Harley Quinn is also never seen again and Harley Quinn also appears in "Wild Cards". And we know at the end of ROTJ that Harley Quinn is alive but obviously went under hiding not as a supervillain anymore and had her own family as she is the grand mother of the Dee Dee twins.

    3. The only reason that you didn't see Joker again after Wild Cards in Justice League Unlimited is because of the Bat-Embargo. Aka that stupid idiotic rights issues BS where due to Kids WB making their own Batman series The Batman at the time of JLU, no major Batman villains were allowed in JLU. I'm not going to go into all the reasons why idiot decisions like that don't make sense but that is the reason Joker wasn't seen even though there were plans to use him. In fact if you get the JLU season set the commentary for "This Little Piggy" reveals that originally in that episode there was going to be a scene where the Joker was planning this elaborate bank heist to try and trap Batman, but Batman just walks by him holding the turned into a pig Wonder Woman trying to comfort her and the Joker decides to call off the crime as Batman isn't paying attention to him. So yeah he would of been in the DCAU if it was allowed but it wasn't, thus he didn't die in "Wild Cards".


    Really the whole point of Return of The Joker is pointing out it's been since Batman's last battle he's really seen his greatest enemy. Wouldn't it be thematically breaking if there was a "oh yeah there was this clone made of him later killed by this psychic chick part of this mutant Royal Flush Gang" plot point? Really seems like you're stretching to make this connection that really shouldn't be there honestly.
     
  17. iammattie

    iammattie Member

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    You've already said you believe Future Shock comes before A league of Their Own, so it odd that you think it's okay to break production order when it serves your purposes, but it's not okay to do it when I have evidence for it? Which the only time I think I've done so this conversation is for Cult of The Cat being in May and Never Fear after it in the summer because once again, there's evidence for it. And it's odd you'd think it's wrong to break PO for TNBA episodes when Holiday Knights so obviously happens after Growing Pains and Sins of the Fathers. Oddly enough though, those episodes have hardly anything to do with the pinnacle of my argument. I've already proved through evidence in the shows alone that JL/JLU occurs via 2000-2004 and that Joker's death in ROTJ occur as between 2002-2007
     
  18. Dallas Kinard

    Dallas Kinard Active Member

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    Man you people REALLY don't like head-canon/fan-theories. I can't help you there.
     
  19. iammattie

    iammattie Member

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    We can play these semantics games all day long Dallas, but when it comes down to it the fact of the matter hasn't nothing to do with what we don't like but more to do with you not liking being wrong. You asked for this discussion, it's been laid out to you multiple different times in multiple different ways that's you're wrong. Your counterpoints have all been shot down, and at least twice in this conversation you've been caught in hypocritical stances. Once about the comics not counting to you even though they did last week, and once about you not taking me seriously because production order got broken even though you've shown that you break production order.

    Fan theories and headcanon are all well and good, if you look back through my posts my first post on this site was a fan theory, but when the evidence completely contradicts it then it isn't a theory any more, it's a moot point. If you want to ignore everything said in the shows then what's the point of even watching them?

    That being said, if you'd like to continue this discussion, start a new thread with your timeline and we can talk about it there. I feel bad hijacking this thread.
     
  20. James Harvey

    James Harvey The World's Finest
    Staff Member Administrator Moderator Reporter

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    To echo the above post, feel free to spin the off-topic discussion to it's own thread. If there are further thoughts on "Wild Card," please continue discussing the episode here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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