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"Justice League Dark" Animated Release Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by James Harvey, Jan 24, 2017.

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"Justice League Dark" - Rate and Discuss this animated movie!

  1. *****

    16.7%
  2. ****1/2

    16.7%
  3. ****

    50.0%
  4. ***1/2

    5.6%
  5. ***

    5.6%
  6. **1/2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. **

    5.6%
  8. *1/2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. *

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1/2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. BigFatHairyDeal

    BigFatHairyDeal Defender of the Universe

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    I guess one of those nitpicks that tends to bug me is that powers are often written to suit the story, instead of the story fitted around the character's powers. WW's bracelets and lasso are two objects that have traditionally been classified as magic proof, but a lot of writers tend to ignore this because that's what the plot calls for. You can't zap her with magic energy blasts, and her lasso has protected her from spells of deception. Maybe that's not enough to save the day in this case, but that's still bringing a lot more to the table than Batman does against a magic based threat. Any defense against magic is better than zero defense!
     
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  2. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    I feel like they balanced it enough for Wonder Woman so far. The lasso helped free her from Trigon's Corruptor demon's possession but here she couldn't resist Destiny's influence.
     
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  3. ABrown

    ABrown Active Member

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    I still need to watch this a second time. But for the most part, I enjoyed what I saw. I would've liked to have seen Wonder Woman a little more, since I really love this version of her.
     
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  4. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Interview with Ernie Altbacker
    -At one point, Zatanna wasn't in the movie
    -They toyed with using Madame Xanadu
    -Etrigan was the toughest to write for him, he tried to pitch olde English with contemporary in his rhymes but was rejected, Burnett helped him with the rhymes
     
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  5. CyberCubed

    CyberCubed Active Member

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    Honestly I was pretty bored throughout most of this movie. The animation and action scenes were top notch, but everything else to the story and characters were so boring and bland I felt bored halfway into the movie.

    It's been said the main cast felt so bland, they were right. Zatanna had virtually no personality. Constantine and the Dead guy just made quips all movie. Batman was just there. Etrigan was....Etrigan.

    And man these movies go on way too long. A good 20 minutes could have been trimmed to improve the pacing. Hell I think Swamp Things scenes should have been omitted entirely, he had no real point in the film. The purple lady/woman or whatever the hell that was had no point either.

    Really boring film. Shame because the action scenes and animation were nice eye candy, but everything else about it was dull.
     
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  6. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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  7. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    From the sounds of it, it seems like next time we (possibly) see him Swamp Thing will be dealing with having his humanity ripped out of him and effectively no longer being Alec Holland, like in the Alan Moore run :cool:.
     
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  8. Venkman182

    Venkman182 New Member

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    Hey all, just watched the movie and loved it but was confused about one thing, we find that Felix Faust created that tornado & crap monster to attack the JLD, but I don't understand why? If Ritchie was the guy behind everything & Felix didn't have anything to actually do with Ritchie other than being framed, then why did Faust start attacking the JLD in the first place? Am I missing something here? Thanks for any help all.
     
  9. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Just defending his house?
     
  10. Venkman182

    Venkman182 New Member

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    Yeah, I get why he battles them at that point, but much earlier before Faust is even thrown up as a red herring you see his hands using magic to create that tornado & again a little later to make that feces monster. Like why is he attacking them all that time prior to the big battle at his house? There seems to be no reason for it, I mean is he just bored and needs something to do?
     
  11. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    6/16: I wrote off as it was Destiny, not Faust that did the conjuring and the audience was misled. I'll have to rewatch the movie.

    7/4: Okay, so rewatched it a couple times over the past weeks, @Venkman182

    When Faust is shown stirring the bowl and incanting both when the tornado and later the golem is conjured, I concluded that was Ritchie controlling Faust without his knowledge by using that ring Constantine and Zatanna saw in Steven's memories. Note that when the team confronts Ritchine in the House of Mystery, Ritchie admits he had to frame Faust to continue with his plan to get the Dreamstone. Since Constantine previously stated Ritchie was a collector in the paranormal field, Ritchie likely knew Faust had a big collection of rings and thus would be an easy mark to use as a scapegoat. (And a bonus if Faust killed most of them I suppose)

    I asked Ernie Altbacker and he confirmed as much. He also revealed there were some more bits that would have made that clearer but they were cut for time.
    erniealtbackerDMjuly32017.jpg
     
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  12. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    Congratulations on getting props from the writer for your deductions :cool:.

    Oh Ritchie...
     
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  13. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    Massive Blu-Ray review follows:

    Justice League Dark

    This was more fun than most movies in the DC Animated Movie continuity, but I felt the climax and ending were weak. I also feel like Matt Ryan as Constantine's talents were a bit wasted, but that's to be expected in animation. Matt Ryan was so great on the TV show because his live-action performance was so cartoony. It makes sense actual animation can't do it justice.

    I love that they got Jeremy Davies back to voice Richie, but I'm a little surprised and bummed they had him become a bad guy, because he was one of the most likable characters on the series. Was he a bad guy in the comics? I like that John decides not to save him in the end in case Destiny is still pulling his strings. Cold is our John.

    I feel like the Etrigan from Bruce Timm's Justice League had a much better origin. Him being bonded to Etrigan as a punishment for an affair with Morgaine Le Fey in which he betrayed Camelot. is far more epic of an idea than merely to save a brave knight's life.

    He's better in one way: He rhymes. And they are SO easy to do. They don't even have to be GOOD rhymes (he rhymes "will be" and "family" at some point). And it's because of the rhymes, him calling Jason Blood his brother over his grave is made absolutely perfect. The scene builds to that because of the rhyme. Once he says "Destined to be slaves to each other" you're like, "This is about to be amazing," and it is. I don't like Etrigan's origins or his voice as much as JLU's version. But this one definitely has merit.

    Dr. Destiny however, having that medieval backstory, just put the Justice League version to shame. I admit I like the Skeletor-looking Bruce Timm design better (more colorful and scary) but the actual origin and character is miles ahead from the convict loser Justice League gave us. It also made sense that the nightmare crimes were traced back to that specific villain. I like that he is described as a man of science, so that even if they don't CALL the character "Dr. Destiny", that is still what he is.

    Batman appears to be getting a bit rattled as the movie goes on without wanting to admit it. What he said after the big duke explosion in the hospital said everything: "Hmmm." I also love that he crazily carries around a Pulp Fiction needle in his utility belt. Who is that for? Does he constantly deal with a strung out Uma Thurman in the back of a van? Or has Batman met Green Arrow's sidekick Speedy, and decided then and there to be ready for anything? Weird.

    Swamp Thing is not as much fun here as he is on Justice League Action, but his voice is cooler (sorry Mark Hamill). Nothing will beat the DCAU Zatanna either.

    For the record, one of the things I seem to dislike about every version but Mark Hamill's, is that it turns out Swamp Thing is a bit of an uncaring buttwipe. It makes sense that he's not that concerned about humanity's destruction because they are the biggest threat to The Green. But if he also secretly wants to be human again, it actually doesn't make any sense at all. It also makes him quite useless too, so I think he's less God-like, and more lazy.

    Speaking of Gods, when Constantine says they need to stop Destiny because they didn't need another God out there running around and causing havoc, I was like, "Who is referring to? Superman?" And then it dawned on me: "Oh. GOD." I love Constantine and Lucifer and all that jazz, because the creations myths I grew up with as a child are all real in the DC Universe, although even in DC's Universe, I think God is MUCH more hands-off than Constantine just claimed right than. But that's part of the chip on Constantine's shoulder, so I roll with it.

    Deadman is much less annoying than he was on either Justice League Unlimited or Batman: The Brave And The Bold. So that's something.

    I love how the letters spelling out "Constantine" in Bruce's room started swirling around into a facsimile of the Constantine TV show main title. Too bad they didn't get the music rights.

    The cartoon tornado with the eyes and mouth looks like the bad guy from TRON. And Moses from South Park as long as we are going there.

    Why was the movie rated R? I barely saw anything in it that made me think it needed to be rated PG-13. And is one of the production managers really named Sunisa Petchpoo? That's even worse than Berkeley Breathed or Cherry Chevapravadumrong.

    Love that they used John Stewart as the Green Lantern. That's important to me because if there IS ever another DCAU Justice League movie I want to make sure it's John and not Hal both for continuity purposes and because Hal sucks. Having John be an occasional presence in these movies will probably help DC come to that decision pretty easily. I love that Batman takes off the ring in the middle of the fight because it mirrors what he did to Hal in the first movie. Hal wasn't looking. What's John's excuse? He does it in the middle of the freaking fight. I love that. You'd figure Hal might have warned John about this guy. I shudder to think what this continuity's Guy Gardener could potentially be in for.

    I love the idea that David Coppefield practices actual magic, using the logic that he wouldn't date Claudia Schiffer or own a chain of islands if he didn't. That's kind of a mean joke, but Zatanna uses her real magic for parlor tricks too, so the idea holds up to scrutiny.

    Still, am I correct in thinking that the movie just called Copperfield a supermodel rapist by definition? I would definitely have my lawyer on speed-dial had I written this movie.

    I would probably be more upset at Felix's Faust crass sexism if it wasn't portrayed as unfunny and lame. I could picture the Joker on Batman: The Animated Series making this same joke, and Paul Dini expecting us to find it funny and laugh, and instead Faust is only slightly less painful and unfunny than The Office's Michael Scott. I love Batman: The Animated Series. But I love that the times have changed enough that we don't put up with stupid jokes like that.

    Or at least I thought that until seeing Batman And Harley Quinn, which made a liar out of me just now.

    Batman's dumb enough to think they were ever real elephants. I like that Batman is the first person I've seen throw off Deadman's possession (and pretty easily too). Even DCAU Batman couldn't do it. This guy's mind is tough. I love Constantine telling him he wasn't going to play telephone for the two of them, and once Deadman says, "Are we online?" I was like, "This movie just got a lot less complicated".

    I love that Constantine is frosty and cool towards Batman when they meet. He is the one person unimpressed with him. Even Richie's face lights up at Batman, but John's all "Big whoop".

    I am still amazed John got an invite to the League. I shouldn't be, because his skills would make him an excellent member, but he uses his real name and doesn't have a costume. Now I think Commissioner Gordon is a hero too. But it would still raise my eyebrows if he ever got a League invite.

    Boston's right about something: "What kind of God needs energy shields?" About as wise as Kirk asking, "What kind of God needs a starship?" Him declaring Richie's ultimate fate "unpleasant" shows he is also the master of understatement.

    I love that Superman being susceptible to magic is a thing in the movie, although perhaps not made as explicit as in past DC Projects. But yeah, magic is a definitely weakness for Superman, and potentially his most dangerous one. He gets exposed to Kryptonite or red sunlight, and he can fly in the yellow sun, and walk it off in a couple of minutes. He gets hit with the wrong spell, and he's totally helpless, indefinitely. Superman can save himself from Kryptonite and red sunlight. He is entirely dependent on other magical league members or allies if he gets hit with a damaging spell. And a spell where he almost punched off Batman's head strikes me as a pretty damaging spell. Sheesh.

    I love that the Death Shrouds tell Batman that with the amount of times he's cheated them, they find him "vexing". Great way to put it. "Boo!" shows Batman even scares Death Shrouds.

    I love the Devils Three asking Etrigan to use his inside voice. For the record "Your *** is grass, and we're gonna be the lawnmower," is one of those bad *** lines that would probably sound kick *** in the 1980's. As of now, it's a little corny and daggy. And that's my opinion for today.

    The "I have a butler" line underwhelmed me, just because I could think of a half dozen better lines off of the top of my head to Batman telling Orchid how he copes. He could say "I hit stuff", or point at the cowl and say "I don't." If you are going to have Batman respond to a question like that, it has to be the best response a person can actually give.

    Plus, isn't saying he has a butler a big tip-off for Batman's identity? I mean, most people would guess he's rich, but if he said that among cunning villains, they'd go through a checklist of wealthy Gothamites who aren't actually criminals, and only one name would be left. Not smart.

    "Neat, in'int?"" Love that. SO British. And "puny and disrespectful" also describes John Constantine to a T.

    Hears a question and possible plothole: Why did Destiny start driving people crazy enough at the beginning to kill people? According to the movie, his feeds on the fear. How does that work exactly? What actual benefit can a being get from someone else being afraid? And why is Destiny dependent on this feeding? He's a man of science, correct? Is this all a part of Immortality? Because just based on his ending, he's doing it wrong.

    I love that while Diana and Superman are angry and judgmental at the murderers at the beginning, Batman actually seems sympathetic to the would be baby-murdering mother and treats her and the infant with total empathy. Maybe it's because the situations were entirely different, but I really dig the idea that Batman is invested in talking people down, when Clark and Diana don't feel the need to bother. That's really cool.

    I love that Batman's all "Psychopaths don't need the excuse of magic to commit crimes" and then literally in the next scene is writing Constantine's name all over his room. You sure about that, Bruce?

    I also love that while he doesn't actually defeat the poop monster with electric paddles, it DOES slow the creature down. Which is another thing that shows that even when Batman is entirely out of his element, he still is a great improviser.

    I love "He's dead and I accept the risks." Zatanna and John were totally overthinking the dynamic there.

    I love that the first thing Swamp Thing gets about Zatanna is that she owns a garden. Her saying she waters it every week strikes me as incredibly patronizing. I would have loved to see Swamp Thing respond to that sentence the same way Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman did when asked about Joseph Gordon-Levitt: "Right. Right." It's cute that she thinks that matters.

    Also really cool is the idea that John Constantine does Sudoku. I love it whenever it is shown a hero or villain likes exercising their minds in their free time. Harley Quinn being a surprise crossword nerd in "Batman And Harley Quinn" is pleasurable for the exact same reason.

    I kind of feel Zatanna was a little bit TOO offended on behalf of Richie, by John pointing out he wouldn't even NEED the crystal for much longer. What? It's true! It's the elephant in the room, and it shows that John has nerves of steel to immediately address it, rather than tiptoe around Richie's feelings, or b.s. him about the situation being anything but what it was. Were I Ritchie, I wouldn't have punched him for that. I'd think it was awesome that he was treating me like a real person, and not a helpless victim to be pitied. Richie's offended reaction did not strike me as true to life. But if you want me to explain that plothole, it's simply because he no longer believes he is gonna die, and milking his friends' sympathy serves his evil interests. Yeah. And that's what I'll think about that from now on.

    Is Deadman gonna hook up with Orchid at the end? That would be cool.

    I didn't really get what happened to Swamp Thing at the end. Did his human host die? Because I thought he was already dead. Or because he is no longer bonded to The Green, did the person was know as Swamp Thing die? Or did he simply retreat to retrieve the body? I wish that were clearer.

    Not great, not bad, but still more fun than normal. And considering these movies are NOT usually fun, that's something. ***1/2.

    A Sneak Peek At Teen Titans: The Judas Contract:

    Kevin Smith aside, this was good. I miss Miguel Ferrer already. You cannot tell he is sick in these clips. I love him stating that Deathstroke is a bad guy, but a bad guy you'd like to hang out with. Kari Wahlgreen is pretty. James Tuckers says that this take on the story is more real for modern audiences. What I think he means is that it is watered down for delicate sensibilities. Part of me gets that decision, considering the subject matter, but let's not pretend this is any more hardcore than the adaptation the animated series did a few years ago, S-bombs notwithstanding. Speaking of things being watered down, Gregg Henry (Brother Blood) appears to be about to offer a political opinion in the interview, and then thinks better of it for fear of offending half of the audience. Speaking as someone who doesn't know if they were about to be praised or slammed, I would have really liked to have heard that opinion. But these features are made to sell DVD's, and actors going off on political rants during these promos is probably a bad idea. ****.

    The Story Of Swamp Thing:

    Can you believe the Comics Code Authority had a problem with Swamp Thing being naked? I really like this late Len Wein cat. I acknowledge Alan Moore making it so Swamp Thing can pop up from place to place is cool. But Wein is right to be a little disgusted with how dark the comic got. Supposedly that was to show that comics could be dark and "adult". And Wein is like "Why? Who asked for comics to be no fun?" We are of a like mind. I also like him because he survived a potentially lethal case of blood poisoning at the age of 17, through sheer strength of will, so he wouldn't miss the premiere episode of Adam West's Batman. Not to get too personal, but I saw a lot of myself in that moment too. ****1/2.

    Did You Know?:

    Brief featurettes about facts about the movie and characters. Overall: *****.

    Constantine Origin: Had no idea Constantine was originally a Swamp Thing character before being spun off into his own book. *****.

    Color Of Magic: I love Jay Oliva explaining his thought processes behind the different colors of magic in the movie. It's total nonsense (which Oliva knows) which is part of what makes it fun. *****.

    Black Orchid: Even Mike Carlin doesn't know the deal behind Black Orchid. So we learn nothing. ****1/2.

    Deadman Casting: Nicolas Turturro isn't fantastic, but he's better than the JLU guy, and even surprisingly Michael Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum's accent was never really convincing to me. I still don't think they've managed to cast a definitive Deadman though. ****.

    Justice League Dark At New York Comic Con 2016:

    Okay, the moderator is awful, and the audience cheers at literally anything. Literally, if somebody ended a sentence, they'd cheer. "I just ate a bad yam!" "WHOOOOOOO!!!!" Matt Ryan was treated like a rock star here. He said he'd be up for more Arrow, or even more Constantine episodes, and Jay Oliva said if Young Justice returned, if he DID incorporate an element from this movie, he'd want to cast Matt Ryan as Constantine. Somebody asked one of the producers if they would see Lucifer in an upcoming movie, and he said probably, but I won't personally hold my breath. Jason O'Mara did his impression of Boston Brand inhabiting Batman's body, and it was really funny. One thing I like about the movies that the producers noted, is that they can just have various superhero characters seated at the Hall of Justice table, like Martian Manhunter, John Stewart, and Hawkman, and not have to bother to explain their origins, because everybody already knows who they are, and we can assume they joined the League in the interim between the movies. The producers also pointed out that Zatanna's voice actress (Camilla Luddington) had it really hard in having to speak her spells backwards. I don't think she's as good as Julie Brown or Jennifer Hale. But I also don't think either of those actresses ever had to backwards talk in a serious scene, and make it sound credible instead of goofy, and Luddington did that at least. I hate these Comic Con features. But at least the trailer at the beginning was cool. **.

    Trailers:

    Wonder Woman: Magnificent, although the ending to the trailer is a bit underwhelming after all of that awesomeness. ****1/2.

    Batman: Return Of The Caped Crusaders: Showcasing the jaywalking jokes shows this movie knew exactly how to sell itself and who the target audience was. *****.
     
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    #73 Fone Bone, Sep 16, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  14. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    Nope.

    It wasn't just to save Blood's life. Merlin heeded Destiny's vow and bonded them as a precaution if he ever returned.

    Probably the mother committing suicide.

    I think you're way overthinking it. Like Zatanna, he used real magic for his acts. He got famous and became a celebrity. One celebrity dates another celebrity. Him dating Claudia played out like it did in real life.

    I interpreted it as Alfred being there for him. The flashback in Batman vs Robin said it all for me when he was child and broke down after failing to find the Court.

    Violence is just a side effect. The Dreamstone makes people feel their fears. The Dreamstone absorbs those feelings of fear, turns it into energy, and funnels it into Destiny -- and he gets more powerful. He could care less how they react to seeing their fears.

    Yeah, it was an act at that point.

    It's a nod to the Alan Moore run. The tear is a dead giveaway. Anyway, in the Moore run Swamp Thing was reinvented as an elemental created at the moment of Alec Holland's death. It absorbed Holland's memory and personality into itself so much that it thought it was Holland. So eventually he discovered he'd never be human and had an identity crisis - plant or man - but he got his act together. Then he learned the whole back story of how he was the latest in a long line of Swamp Things chosen to be defender of the Green. So the real Holland was always dead from the start and he was just carrying around a corpse in his mass the whole time. Once Destiny revealed this to Swamp Thing, he didn't know what to make of himself and retreated. They probably kept things vague for pacing reasons, the time immortal debate of spoon feeding everything or leaving enough up for interpretation, or they were saving a deeper reveal for a future movie. There was a survey last year revealing a solo Swamp Thing movie was on WHV's radar in the least.
     
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  15. Fone Bone

    Fone Bone Matt Zimmer

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    For some reason, that makes me feel better.
    Nah, the people who write this stuff are actually underthinking it, and I'm pointing it out. If this was the first time genre did a joke that, you might be right, but the people who write these projects seem incapable of understanding where their sexually perverse ideas actually lead if you truly grok the implications. Call it the Pepe Le Pew effect. This is not new to superhero comics. The entire character of Poison Ivy is predicated on the idea of normalizing that stuff. And I'mma call b.s. whenever they do it.

    Edit:

    Just to be clear, the entire joke is about the fact that Copperfield would not be able to date a supermodel without using real magic. If the joke was actually as you said, and just one celebrity using real magic to become a celebrity, John would not be saying that's the only way Copperfield could date Schiffer or own a chain of islands, because he could do that with a regular magic act. The implication in that joke is that Copperfield clearly put on her under a spell to force her to date him. The joke wouldn't be worth making if that wasn't the actual implication.
    Appreciate the info. Kind of wish it had been in the movie, and if not, the special features.
    My review was written before reading all of the posts in this thread, including the reports of James Tucker's clarifications about Swamp Thing. I declined to update or change the review because I didn't want people to think I am smarter or more insightful than I actually am. My first impression was to be confused by the Swamp Thing thing, so I'm saving that for posterity.
     
    #75 Fone Bone, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  16. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Yes, have some.
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    We'll have to disagree and leave it at that.

    It's here and there in the movie. They went the route of trying to leave some things for viewers to figure out on their own and chose not to spoonfeed everything. Though arguably, they might have cut a smidge too many parts in the editing bay.
     
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