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Is it really likely we'll get a great Marvel show this decade?

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by KombatMaster94, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    This, Disney didn't ruin Marvel, the reason why animation is medicore in the Marvel department is because its lead by people who don't have any passion for it and think just because "its for kids" means they don't have to put any effort to it.
     
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  2. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Thanks for agreeing with me.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
  3. KombatMaster94

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    As I said earlier, one of my career goals as a creator in entertainment is to work at Marvel Animation and make my own animated universe. I'd have to start with doing some writing in animation before making my own studio with its own IPs like Marvel and WB. Then I'd put out the first one (Vanguard) and later get to Marvel to make my animated universe there.

    If I do get any executive meddling, whether it's from Loeb or Quesada or Wacker, I'd just report it to Disney and they'd absorb Marvel Animation into the Disney ABC Television Group. That's what Kevin Feige did for Marvel Studios.
     
  4. Freddy

    Freddy Active Member

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    I'm sorry, but no. I have recently binge-watched most of the Marvel cartoons from 80's and 90's (nice thing is that everything from 60's all the way to 90's have Region 2 DVD releases) and they aren't that dumb.

    Well OK, the first seasons of Fantastic Four and Iron Man really talked down to their audience (and had horrible production values to boot), but unlike today, Marvel listened the criticisms and completely overhauled both shows for their second seasons. Iron Man especially could get pretty dark at times (Mandarin got his fingers cut off in the series finale!).

    Spider-Man was held down by the low animation budget and censorship, but at least it tried to have actual story-arcs and character development. I just watched Enter the Green Goblin episode (S03E04) and it was miles better than any of the Goblin episodes of USM (still not as good as any of the SSM's episodes, but only few things are).

    X-Men is honestly still one of the best Marvel cartoons of all-time. The melodramatic voice acting is the only badly aged aspect of the show and even that gets often blown out of the proportion. I don't want to get overly political, but Season 1 had an episode where a presidential candidate made openly racist remarks on live-tv... and was still considered the most likely candidate to win the election. If that doesn't resonate with today's people, I don't know what will.

    Silver Surfer was downright sophisticated and if it was live-action rather than animation, people would call it underrated sci-fi classic that deserved better.
     
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  5. spyke

    spyke Well-Known Member

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    That's not entirely true. Marvel (more specifically, certain Marvel characters) has been "mainstream" (to some degree or another) ever since the 1960's. Marvel's current mainstream popularity with non comic book readers started growing during the early 1990's with the X-MEN and SPIDER-Man animated TV series (which were huge hits that appealed to people of all ages). Then Marvel started becoming popular with mainstream moviegoers with their first hit movie, BLADE, which single handedly reignited Hollywood's interest in making comic book superhero movies and started the whole current superhero movie craze. The box office success of the X-MEN and SPIDER-MAN movies increased Marvel's popularity with the mainstream public even more. It wasn't until the huge box office success of the first IRON MAN movie (which came out before Disney bought Marvel) that Marvel's popularity shot into the stratosphere of mainstream popularity.

    OMT, Disney didn't destroy Marvel by making them appeal to a larger demographic. Heck, the current comics and the Netflix TV series are aimed at a much narrower and older demographic. Before the Quesada/Jemas regime started calling the shots at the publishing division, MOST (if not all) MU superhero comics were suitable for and/or aimed at all ages. It wasn't until after Quesada and Jemas started calling the shots that Marvel started labeling and aiming the MU comics at different age groups and then created a separate all ages line of books that were over sanitized and silly/campy garbage that talked down to the readers (the MARVEL AGE and MARVEL ADVENTURES line of books). It is the formula for those defunct all ages lines that Marvel Animation started following (in regards to the complexity and maturity of the stories) once Quesada and Loeb started calling the shots at Marvel Animation. The bottom line is that Quesada DOES NOT understand the meaning of "ALL AGES".

    Wacker is the ultimate company man. So whatever creative direction his boss's want the cartoons to go in, he will oblige them regardless if he agrees with their creative direction or not.

    In addition to the problems you stated, the other problems with Marvel Animation is that the people who are currently running the animation division (Quesada,Loeb,and Wacker) (a) seem to not know what makes a good cartoon or how animation works and (b) don't understand the true meaning of "ALL AGES" and don't know how to tell layered all ages stories that don't talk down to the viewers.
     
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    #25 spyke, Jun 8, 2017
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  6. KombatMaster94

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    Just so I can show this, I think I said earlier Man of Action flat out said cartoons were for kids and they thought Ultimate Spider-Man was better than Spectacular. On CBR, someone posted this video of Man of Action at Long Beach Comic Con saying basically that.

     
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  7. spyke

    spyke Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, that's been the ignorant mentality of many comic book fans turned pro (and who work for the Big 2) over the last 30 to 35 years. They have this selfish elitist attitude where they think that the MU and DCU superhero comics should only be aimed exclusively at teens and adults, and that superhero cartoons are for stupid kids. This is the same mentality that Quesada, Loeb,and Wacker (all of whom are comic book pros who have entered the industry within the last 30 years) has.
     
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  8. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Man, that wasn't nice for them to say.

    Also, Stephen Wacker has officially stepped down from his position at Marvel Animation by moving to Marvel Television.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
  9. KombatMaster94

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    Is it any wonder why I think Man of Action ruined Marvel Animation? Also, I'm just hoping someone like Josh Fine or anyone else capable who's done awesome work takes his place.

    Thanks for following me on Deviantart, by the way. How'd you like my scripts there?
     
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  10. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    KombatMaster94, a tip of advice. You're not going to get very far in the animation industry stating things like that and also by trashing your peers. This isn't exactly a private forum. Not to mention, people in the industry do sometimes read these forums and even post here.

    Man of Action didn't ruin Marvel Animation. Maybe in your opinion they created bad shows, but they didn't ruin it. Marvel Animation has been pretty successful and grown quite a bit in recent years. They have their own studio now. That's hardly ruined.

    Also, let's be clear here. Man of Action was NOT running the show. They headlined Ultimate Spider-Man right? And they also worked on Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble. Those are three shows. That doesn't include Hulk and the Agents of SMASH, the anime movies, the overseas anime productions, Guardians of the Galaxy, the DTV movies, and much more.

    I also don't really disagree with what was said in that video. The fact of the matter is the comics are NOT a good entry point for a lot of younger readers now. So the idea with Ultimate Spider-Man as an animated series is to provide that younger entry point for new fans, and it worked from that perspective.

    You may not like their results, but at the end of the day, Man of Action was hired to do a job. They did the job that was asked of them. Maybe you don't like it, but it wasn't them specifically that "ruined" Marvel. And they only ruined it from a subjective, opinionated point of view.
     
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  11. brodie999

    brodie999 Active Member

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    Yeah, I agree. And if they ever revive EMH and WATXM, they'd fire Loeb so he can't ruin EMH S3 and the show can have its long story arc rule back. He and Perlmutter don't deserve to be in Marvel since they've ruined it long enough and it's time they cancel Avengers Assemble and Guardians of the Galaxy so they can revive EMH, WATXM and make Hulk: Gamma Corps and Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor shows set in the same universe. That way it can be a much better Marvel animated Universe than the kiddy-trash, less faithful one we're having right now.
     
  12. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    Yeah, none of that's ever going to happen.

    No. That's not what Kevin Feige did. And that's not what would happen with Marvel Animation. I guess Disney ABC Television Group doesn't have executives who producers answer to either? And what makes you so sure they will be more reasonable to your creative vision then the people who were given autonomy in charge of Marvel Animation?
     
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    #32 TheVileOne, Jul 13, 2017
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  13. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Can you stop with the idea of cancelled Marvel shows being revived? They're NOT coming back and you need to realise that it doesn't make things better.

    To The Vile One: It still doesn't help that their comments about Spectacular angered many and though USM worked well with younger audiences, it didn't work well with others. This is why some fans of the current Marvel animated shows like to attack fans who like the previous Marvel animated shows. I really don't get the love behind those shows and also don't get the love behind Teen Titans Go.

    And it's your opinion that Man of Action didn't ruin the current Marvel animated shows. IMO, they haven't done a great animated show since Generator Rex and their most recent effort, which is the Ben 10 reboot, has gotten a similar response as TTG and the 2016 reboot of PPG.

    Ignore what The Vile One said. It's your opinion.

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    #33 AdrenalineRush1996, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  14. Red Arrow :D

    Red Arrow :D Proud Beneluxer

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    Fans of newer shows are attacking fans of older shows?! Hunk? It is rather the other way around.
     
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  15. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Yes, it's common for fans of older stuff to attack fans of newer but it is also common for fans of newer stuff to attack fans of older stuff. It's not the other way around at all. People tend to focus on the former (older stuff fans attacking newer stuff fans) and ignore the latter (newer stuff fans attacking older stuff fans).

    This is why fandoms can't have nice things, to say the least and this is also why the term fandom rivalry exists for a good reason. Don't try to say that there's no such thing as newer stuff fans attacking older stuff fans because there is.

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    #35 AdrenalineRush1996, Jul 14, 2017
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  16. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I'm not a fan of Teen Titans Go, but it's an irreverent comedy series about the Teen Titans. Its clearly not meant to be taken seriously. The aughts series had a serialized flowing plot and more superhero vs. super-villain plots. I think the clear reason people hate the show is because they loved the previous show, which had a good sense of world-building, and for what it was, a fairly serious animated interpretation of Slade Wilson aka Deathstroke.

    So fans of the old show see this new show. It's the same cast. It's the same characters from the aughts series, but it's all comedy high jinks. It's all non-stop comedy and gags. All the romantic tension teased by the older series is now all played for laughs. They probably feel like this new show is mocking them instead of giving them what they really want. A superhero show with the Teen Titans. Instead it's a super-goofy comedy series.

    I'm not going to be lumped into fans of old stuff vs. fans of new stuff. The point is, I like the old stuff. The 90s Spider-Man show is still my favorite Spider-Man animated series. I like Spectacular Spider-Man. I loved Wolverine and the X-Men and was heart-broken we never got the second season, despite the fact, I clearly remember a lot of people at the time constantly criticizing and trashing the show since it had Wolverine as the leader of the X-Men. I love Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. I thought that show was even superior to Justice League in its characterizations of the heroes and actually establishing them as three-dimensional characters first. With the animated shorts, Josh Fine and Chris Yost basically did a seven-part setup to bring people into the series.

    However, I'm also not going to hate on new shows just because they've committed the crime of not being the older series.

    Something else, people may not remember the boards at the time, but there were plenty of criticisms agains the likes of X-Men Evolution and Batman Beyond for their time as well. And yeah there were internet message boards back then. People were livid about X-Men Evolution showing their favorite X-Men characters as kids in high school and getting into high school high jinks. Why? many of them were fans of the 1990s X-Men series, so they were used to that interpretation of the characters.

    Despite the fact that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini were working on Batman Beyond, the show was accused of being modern, show-by-executive committee trash. Oh a teenaged Batman. He's just some WASPy kid playing Batman. Where's all the classic characters from the older shows? Why aren't we getting Justice League instead of this?

    I found X-Men Evolution hard to get into at first, but over time I started enjoying it and just appreciating it for what it was. It was a new take on the X-Men mythos. The characters were similar, but in different situations or slightly altered, but it was still X-Men at the end of the day. The show grew into itself over time. But even at first I had trouble getting into it. It almost seemed like it was pandering to a view of high school life that didn't come off as real or natural at first. But over time, it became a fine X-Men series. Do I think it's better than the 90s series. No, but it doesn't have to be better for me to enjoy it.

    All these takes are products of their times. Some are slightly dated. Some are more timeless than others. Some I'd consider the more definitive takes. But the characters and stories are still universal, and they will continue on for decades in multiple forms.
     
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    #36 TheVileOne, Jul 14, 2017
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  17. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    To The Vile One: Ah, I see.

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  18. Freddy

    Freddy Active Member

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    I won't name anyone, but I have seen people who will get mad, if you have negative feelings about the current/recent shows. Some of them even love to play the ever classic "You can't just let go off the [previous show]!" - card, even if you didn't bring up the old shows :/
     
  19. TheLemsterPju

    TheLemsterPju Well-Known Member

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    Any 'attacks' from newer show fans are 99% of the time due to built up rage from older show fans passive-aggressively bullying them to no end.

    But I can say for a fact, for all the time I've ventured the web, numerous websites and forums, that it is vastly more common for fans of the older shows to attack fans of the newer shows. At least the new show fans don't tell the other side to end their lives, or threaten the creators with horrible acts of violence (remember this?).

    In that case, I'd say any built up frustration newer show fans have are somewhat justified.
     
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    #39 TheLemsterPju, Jul 14, 2017
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  20. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Yet people like you continue to ignore that there are fans of the newer shows who have attacked fans of the older shows. Sorry but it's true. It isn't just fans of the older shows attacking fans of the newer shows but also fans of the newer shows attacking fans of the older shows.

    It's not justified at all because it is common but it doesn't get the same attention as the other one. I know this because there are fans of the Amazing Spider-Man duology that have attacked fans of the Raimi trilogy since I've read some comments from them along with fans of the Dark Knight trilogy attacking fans of the Burton/Schumacher Batman films. Not to mention fans of the Dan Slott run of ASM attacking fans of ASM who departed after One More Day along with New 52 fans attacking Post-Crisis DC fans.

    I'm not very happy that this "fans of newer stuff attacking fans of older stuff" gets ignored in media and that it shouldn't always focus on the "fans of older stuff attacking fans of newer stuff" part.

    You just don't notice it at all. I do because I have read comments from fans of newer stuff that have attacked fans of older stuff.

    This is why fandoms can't have nice things and that they're not safe from controversies.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
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