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"Infinite Crisis" Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by EinBebop, Oct 8, 2005.

  1. DR.MID-NITE

    DR.MID-NITE The Original

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    So whats up with all of the criminals knowing about mind-wiping and going after the heroes families? All of this was set up in identity crisis. Was this all wiped out of existence.


    And do we know anything about the future of...

    Hawkman? I liked this new incarnation. Talk about a guy who gets a reboot every other year.

    Atom? I know something is about to change. But, I also like Ray Palmer.
     
  2. randomguy

    randomguy Came, liked Ike, and left.

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    Man, Johns and company really dropped the ball on this one.

    After the creative team, against all odds, managed to make something reasonably readable and entertaining, if continuity-heavy, for the first six issues, it was really a shame to see them so completely and utterly botch this final issue. The art is lazy and clearly rushed, there's a series of elements that feel disconnected, the gore is genuinely excessive, Superman of Earth-2 gets a lame death (and if there's a single character in all of comics that deserves better, it's the Golden Age Superman), and whole thing simply feels slipshod in its execution.

    Unfortunately, the weakness of this final issue retroactively hurts the entire miniseries. It's revealed that poor Wonder Woman actually has no real character arc, which is rather disappointing given that Infinite Crisis was at its core supposed to be a story about the Big 3, Alexander Luthor and Superboy Prime are never really given very convincing motivations, the Donna Troy storyline is essentially pointless, and the whole thing, which had plenty of opportunity to be an interesting commentary and a thoughtful story, wound up essentially having no point other than to fix a bunch of editorial mandates, like making Batman not a jerk and getting the Big 3 out of the cards for a year's DCU time.

    I'm also genuinely amazed that, just when it seemed DC had finally patched most of the holes generated by the first Crisis 20 years ago, they decide to give us a New Earth with yet more vague changes.

    Don't let all my complaining completely fool you... there are strong moments in this miniseries, and some of the more epic and climactic bits really work well. I still think it's a much better story than Crisis On Infinite Earths, because it keeps its cast more focused and has a clearer throughline. But what could have been a very strong event, and started out quite well, really fell apart in the end, and that's a genuine shame. We could have had something special here.
     
  3. Invidente 7

    Invidente 7 Active Member

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    .........like?

    Like having batman die?........there were rumors of that but they were nixed. anyhoo it would have been a result of the OMAC project (project that batman started and killed like, well a LOT of people......and batman swore not to kill ever).
     
  4. Jon T

    Jon T Friendless Spidey

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    I couldn't agree more. This was the one death above all others I figured was in the cards and really, really didn't want to happen. Of course, I'm not saying that he should have been kept around as a regular character in current continuity ("Uncle Superman"?), but he and GA Lois deserved far, far better than this.

    It's funny, from the clues dropped throughout the series, I thought that the implication was that the post-Crisis universe was always inherently unstable since the original GA trinity weren't properly integrated into the new universe. GA Wonder Woman living apart from virtually of humanity, GA Batman being...well dead, and GA Superman in another dimension. Looks like I was wrong; but it would have been far more compelling than a simple slugfest.

    There were a few too many plot threads that weren't tied up satisfactorily, such as what was the true significance of Superman's death 14 years ago? It certainly seemed to be a big deal for Alex Luthor. Why was GA Lois dying in a supposedly timeless dimension? Also, we were missing a clear and unambiguous answer as to how Superman's history was altered from Man of Steel to Birthright, and similarly missing some direct comparisons between the old pre-Crisis Earth-1 and the modern Earth. Such as GA Superman remarking about how pre-Crisis Superman is quite different from the post-1986 version; especially since he met and presumably remembered both versions.

    It seems like some of these answers may at least be touched upon in 52, even though the consistent implication has been that stuff like this would be hammered out in Infinite Crisis. Oh well, it's only money...that is, if I decide to spend it.
     
  5. Christopher Glennon

    Christopher Glennon Punch Drunk Flounder
    Staff Member Reporter

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    This was dealt with in JLA. Zatana erased their minds again and said "Ouy LLIW tegrof!" implying that this spell is permanent, as opposed to before when it was reversed.

    I think Infinite Crisis was a comment on that being the true low-point of DC Comics Post-COIE. That was the last time anyone "paid attention" to DC, and it was pretty much a cheap ploy. And as Batman said, he hasn't inspired anyone since then, the Superman character should be bigger, brighter, and have more impact than that.

    I have to say I liked it, but Infinite Crisis wasn't firing on all cylinders. It didn't hit all high notes, and it didn't knock down every domino it set up. But then, how COULD it? Most of the people who went to space with Donna were there just to cameo, and only a few of them did anything worthy. IC and the tie-ins had a lot of that.

    This issue itself had a few things that felt hollow, particularly the Metropolis fight. I mean, the Bat Folk vs. Deathstroke alone could've been half the issue (especially considering what happened last time Dick encountered Slade), but that was glossed over. I felt Doomsday served his purpose (the seemingly unstoppable foe gets taken down fairly quickly by two Supermen, proving they CAN inspire people), but where was Dr. Psycho? I was expecting him marching down the streets of Metropolis singing "Love Is A Battlefield" as he lead the villain charge. Maybe that's why they lost, he was slacking off and messing with the civilians (as seen in Manhunter).

    IC didn't do that well of a job continuing what happened in other titles. What happened to Joker? Didn't Green Arrow have two arrows coming out of his chest?

    Really liked the Batman/Wonder Woman confronting Alex. There it was, the question of how dark a hero should be, how alone a hero should be. Wonder Woman's words and actions were enough to comfort Batman, at least a little, which is what convinced him to take Dick and Tim (who I assume he will adopt) with him to go soul searching. Although I think Dick being blasted has long term effects and he ends up being turned into the incompetant buffoon-slut we see in Nightwing OYL.

    The only thing I'm really wondering about the Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman thing is why Bruce and Diana are gone for so long. In Green Lantern OYL, Hal made it seem like he had no choice but to patrol the entire world, but he could've easily relied on Wonder Woman. Or J'onn. Or pretty much anyone except Superman or a group calling themselves the JLA.

    On a whole, Infinite Crisis, like the art in #7, seemed sloppy and disjointed and could've been done better, but what I'm really concerned with is what'll happen to the DCU next. Will the JSA's history make sense? Is this new age of magic going to seem different so we feel like something has actually changed? And looking back on that splash page of heroes when it actually is one year later (May 2007), are we going to regret seeing Shadowpact, Blue Beetle, Batwoman, and the new Marvels because they weren't as popular as DC hoped?

    Phew, and I haven't even talked about the Jay/Bart/Flash thing (and the question of where he and SBP were). Maybe next time.
     
  6. Doop

    Doop Mutant cucumber!

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    Concerning Superboy-Prime and Luthor's motivations; did any of you read the Secret Files ish by Wolfman?
     
  7. John6777

    John6777 Active Member

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    Ummmmmm Was the page with all the superheroes real? If so than who was the new Batgirl? Was it Barbara? Can she walk again?
     
  8. Jor-El

    Jor-El Krypton is doomed.

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    Quoted for truth.

    I would say that I feel robbed, but I'm an adult. I knew what I was getting for entrusting Geoff Johns with crafting a story; i.e., I knew I wasn't getting a well-crafted story.

    Let's just be glad it's over.
     
  9. Doop

    Doop Mutant cucumber!

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    It was more like a vision of the future, showing the heroes turning up in 52 and OYL.

    Seeing how Babs is still in a wheelchair in Birds of Prey OYL, and the new Batwoman is going to appear in 52, I don't think its her.

    Some think its Renee Montoya.
     
  10. Tracer

    Tracer Member

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    I think it is Bette Kane... There was a Batgirl in an issue of Teen Titans less than a year ago, when they made a trip to the future. There was no explaination who she made it back from the dead, but a hint that Robin would have a hard year during and past the Crisis.
     
  11. Jack Frenzy

    Jack Frenzy Monkey-King-in-Training

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    "And thus it was that the Rabid Fanboy Cosplayer and the Continuity Troll did stare long and hard into their crystal screens, pounding away. Declaring the post-COIE DCU to be imperfect and corrupt, they swore to reshape it in the image of their own fanfics. Beguiling the Pre-Crisis Fan with promises of restoring things to the way they were, they laid waste to the DCU. The great trinity of heroes fell prey to new darker characterizations, and the Superhero Comics Fan grew weaker and weaker until she died in an empty world of worn-out ideas. However, the trinity's successors took a stand, demonstrating that they had inherited the heroic spirit of their forebears. Then did the Pre-Crisis Fan make peace with his modern equivalents, and saw that comics as a textual medium had to grow and change, and that heroism could exist even in new updated forms."

    (In my spare time, I'm learning Metatextual Delphic Oracle as a second language.;))

    "...Then IC 7 happened and things rushed to an end."

    Having had a week to digest the issue, and the series as a whole, I have to say that although I enjoyed Infinite Crisis, it could have been much better.

    Most of my complaints are obvious and have already been mentioned to death: inconsistent art, plotlines never followed up on or diminished in importance, rushed pacing, the anti-climactic Metropolis battle, etc. This series should have been twelve issues, not seven (eleven if you count the specials, most of which were pretty superfluous).

    I think the main culprit behind the series' rushed conclusion is 52. DC is scared of that project failing and has probably made it the real priority over IC. I'd guess that over the last few months, DC has been re-assigning resources away from IC and into 52 in an attempt to build their production times. Hopefully, the increased emphasis will result in 52 being a great series. We'll find out soon enough.

    One last note about IC: 52 is supposed to be the series that explores and defines the contemporary DCU. What might have been interesting -- perhaps not, we'll never know -- is if 52 had been combined with Infinite Crisis, thereby giving IC the room to tell its story in full, while examining how the world deals with the Crisis and is changed by it. We might have seen, not a re-unfication of alternative worlds into a New Earth, but a new world shaped organically by stressful times, which might have made for a much more interesting story.
     
  12. BlackCat

    BlackCat The Dark Knight

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    Agreed. Throughout IC, you couldn't shake off that rushed feeling. With an event as huge as this, it definitely needed more than seven issues. However, Crisis was never the priority from its very inception. It has always been their excuse to create a more fluid, connected DCU. Honestly, I care more about the end-product than how I get there. I've been disappointed in IC's lack of substance, but I'll accept that in exchange for an improved 52.

    Overall, OYL hasn't turned out too bad. Some has been hit-or-miss, but the core titles have gotten better. Now that we're finally done with the prerequisites, I'm hoping 52 doesn't disappoint.
     
  13. Ultra8

    Ultra8 Now all I/You can do

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    This finale was okay, not at big as i was expecting it to be.
    On the upside we have a pscho Superboy trapped in a cell inside a red sun eater guarded 24/7 by a group of no less than 50 GLs. look like the recipe for a future mega-event. Also the Green Lantern from DC's Tangent might be making an appearence down the line.

    The new earth is definetly a hodge-podge of the Multiverse, the ghost of Earth2's Batman just showed up in an issue of JSA.
     
  14. Buddy Lee

    Buddy Lee Hollywood pitchman

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    Infinite Crisis question, (Spoilers)

    What exactly happened to all of Alex Luthor's powers near the end of IC? He had almost godlike powers and then he was so weak he almost was shot by Batman and then was surprised by the Joker and Lex Luthor in an alley.
     
  15. Jin Kazama

    Jin Kazama Hawkguy
    Staff Member Moderator

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    They ran out.

    It's also why his final shot that hit Nightwing didn't kill him, because it was a weak shot.

    They never really explain it too well. I always assumed that since Alex was composed of both Matter and Anti-Matter, and all the Anti-Matter was gone, that it made him normal.
     
  16. Buddy Lee

    Buddy Lee Hollywood pitchman

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    Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I was pretty confusing for me. It took a little away from the finale as it felt a little rushed. Little bit of filling in the blanks was kind of needed at that point
     
  17. Jack Frenzy

    Jack Frenzy Monkey-King-in-Training

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    Alex's depowering was a bit sudden, although they did mention in IC Secret Files that he had temporarily lost his powers entering the pocket dimension, suggesting that his powers had limits. However, they seemed fully restored when he was helping SBP bust out.

    More than anything, I think it was a plot contrivance to set up the Batman-with-a-gun scene.

    According to rumors (I've heard people claim Dan Didio confirmed this at some convention but can't say for sure), that blast was originally supposed to kill Nightwing, triggering Batman's near-shooting of Alex.

    If the scene seems rushed and confused, that may be why.
     
  18. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Amalgam Universe Overlord
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    I certainly got lucky as I was able to check the hardcover out at the library.

    Yes, an interview in the book does confirm that Nightwing was to bite the bullet. Didn't happen because:

    A. They didn't have the heart to do so.

    B. Dick Grayson is just as agrueably as famous as the Big 3. Which is why Kon-El died instead.


    Also, you all know how Jason Todd was brought back to life, due to Superboy-Prime knocking on the walls of "Heaven"?

    Jeanine Schaefer quoted the following:
    Well, Geoff's idea was to have Red Hood be the Jason Todd of Earth-Two. So he'd be this kid, who wanted to be Batman's sidekick. He sneaks into the Batcave, and the first thing he sees as he boots up the bat-computers is... Batman murdered. And so he uses Bruce's stuff, training himself to take over for him. I think there was even talk of his possibly being Deathstroke's Robin.

    As all of you on the forum know, I've been having fun expanding the Earth-Eight. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with the month of the Wizard magazine where Geoff Johns commented further on it being the original home to Kyle Rayner, Helena Bertinelli, Tim Zanetti and Jason Rusch. Thanks
     
  19. KYO'NYUU IMOUTO

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    Well, shoot wasn't that a trip. While I was out of the loop for a few things (like what was going on with Conner and the Trinity being so messed up) I must admit I was quite entertained by this story although I thought Superboy-Prime was stupid, Earth-Two Superman was a wuss, and Alex was arrogant but I felt each got the ending they had coming (well, Prime needed to get humiliated more but whatever). I loved the little dialogue bits between Batman's team but I was personally a little shocked at how he--for once--seemed vulnerable. I've always seen Bruce as being a guy who was spiritually balanced but I guess the ending proved otherwise. The fighting was pretty good but sometimes it was a little hard to follow or the punches just weren't being show connecting. The coloring was pretty good but otherwise I think IC's dialogue was the best thing about it, thank you Geoff Johns. As Clark said, the perfect world needs no Superman (which makes me wonder if our world, our reality is perfcect because we've not Superman).

    All in all, I'd say it's a 4/5. I'm looking forward to Final Crisis if it means continuing on from here.
     

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