1. We are looking for a volunteer to help out with entering the DC and Marvel comics solicitations. If you are interested, please contact Harley.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Just in time for Halloween, enter for a chance to win a $50 Gift Card from FUN.com! Details here.
    Dismiss Notice

Gun Control: Political Debate thread (PLEASE READ RULES BEFORE POSTING!)

Discussion in 'Cafe toonzone' started by wonderfly, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17,362
    Likes Received:
    216
    Due to the rash of recent high profile shootings, talk of gun control legislation is back on the front page of the news. As it's become a pretty high profile topic, this thread has been created to discuss and debate the issue.

    THE RULES:

    1) A discussion should most of the time not be more than "Post, Response, Reply to Response" as we don't need ongoing debates between two individuals that overtake the thread. Also, no picking apart someone else's post with a line by line reply over each point made in the other person's post. Pick one or two parts of the post to quote in your response, and that's it. We don't need a drawn out idealogical debate: You can believe what you want, and others can believe what they want, but realize that you probably won't be able to change their minds.

    2). Name calling or belittling other forum members will not be allowed. Do not denigrate supporters of one side in this debate. Do not denigrate a state that passes legislation you don't agree with. This is TROLLING or flamebait and may result in a warning or being banned. You can express your displeasure without resulting to name calling.

    3). Do not respond to flamebait or troll posts yourself!! Report the offending posts and let the moderators do their job! This thread will be CLOSED if repeat violations occur, and warnings will be issued for violations as warranted!

    4). About political cartoons- If you want to post more than one in the same post (or more than one on the same day), put them in spoiler tags. It makes it easier for people to navigate the thread.

    This thread was created to let people speak their voice on a timely issue that's gripping our nation. "Gun Control" is not the only aspect of these recent shootings to warrant attention, but as a political aspect, this thread has been created for this issue. So speak your mind, but please follow the rules above!
     
  2. The Huntsman

    The Huntsman Friend of Toon Zone

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    12,553
    Likes Received:
    10
    As with most things, I believe in compromise. I feel that people should be allowed to own guns, but they don’t need assault rifles or high capacity magazines. I don’t buy the “slippery slope” argument and feel that it’s possible to have reasonable restrictions. It seems like the more heated part of the debate now-a-days is in regards to “gun free zones”, and whether or not people should be allowed to have guns in various public properties. I don’t think arming our teachers is a viable option, and I don’t think letting civilians play hero by trying to gun down intruders is going to save lives. If anything, it sounds like a recipe for disaster. This isn’t a movie. The solution seems to be more police and security – trained professionals. It’s not cheap, and I know it’s highly impractical to have security at every sensitive location, but it makes more sense to me than relying on John Q. Public and his trusty revolver.
     
  3. defunctzombie

    defunctzombie 1992 not 2002
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    14,833
    Likes Received:
    189
    (I'm using you as a general pronoun here. No specific member intended.)

    I think at the very least we should re-implement the assault weapon ban for private citizens. What do you really need an AK-47 for? A shotgun will take care of a bear. A 9mm will take care of a home invader. There is no zombie or werewolf invasion, and there is no war inside the borders that would require large magazines. You have the right to bear arms, but mass marketing a weapon designed to kill many humans at once is too far.
     
  4. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    43,107
    Likes Received:
    717
    I think that there needs to be stricter restrictions and regulations regarding gun control. A thorough background check and a psychological test so that people with mental problems, or who have family members with mental problems, don't have access to guns. Re-implementing the assault weapon ban for private citizens could also be helpful. I don't like the idea of owning a gun myself, but if someone does want to own a gun, they don't need a weapon designed to kill many people at once.
     
  5. mac4sure

    mac4sure New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reality Check

    I own an AR15 and enjoy shooting along with everyone in my family including my daughters (18 and 20). Do I need a 30 round clip, no, I can understand limiting the round capacity. But it is not the guns fault, the Texas Tower shooter had a bolt action hunting rifle and how many did he kill before he was stopped? Again people it is not the gun, it's the person behind the gun. Find a way to restrict the crazy's from getting their hands on guns, alcohol, and cars.
     
  6. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17,362
    Likes Received:
    216
    I guess I didn't spell it out in the initial post above, but this thread is also for tracking legislation about gun control (both federal and state). Feel free to link to news stories and editorials from news outlets, regarding this issue.

    For instance: New gun law legislation is in talks by Democrats in Washington.

    From the article:

    Just to double check: of those 4 shootings listed above (Aurora, Columbine, Tuscon, Virginia Tech), and now Sandy Hook, how many of those shootings involved "assault weapons" with "high-capacity magazines?"
     
  7. The Huntsman

    The Huntsman Friend of Toon Zone

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    12,553
    Likes Received:
    10
    Off of the top of my head, I know Tuscon did. Well, not assault weapons, but high capacity magazines. I know banning them won't stop all of the shootings, but if shooters have to stop to reload even 20% of the time, it stands to reason that lives will be saved. Especially in a situation like Tuscon where there were police on scene.
     
  8. PunkPhantom

    PunkPhantom Addicted to Toons & Tunes

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,900
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with all of this. I think even if they wanted to ban all guns, it would be impossible so compromise is key. Also I don't think it would be fair for me to say "well we should just have no guns because all guns are bad" when I've never even used a gun and I do have a feeling that the majority of gun owners are responsible, but I think they should ban guns designed for military use. The one thing we can absoultely not do, however, is nothing.
     
  9. SB20xx

    SB20xx Oooooh!
    Staff Member Moderator Reporter

    Joined:
    May 13, 2003
    Messages:
    40,545
    Likes Received:
    256
    It's a complicated issue, no doubt. Personally I think the bigger underlying issue is there are seemingly increasing amounts of unhinged, mentally unstable people out there. What causes unbalanced individuals? I'm not sure. It could be a variety of factors, whether influenced by environment/upbringing or a chemical imbalance. And it varies from scenario to scenario. But it is a problem that isn't going away. And unfortunately, it's not always easy for gun sellers to know who's unstable; if a person who wants a gun has a clean criminal record (as was the case with many of these shooters), why would they bat an eye?

    Sidebar: Have there ever been tests done to see what the long-term effects are of certain prescription drugs (or, conversely, tests done to see what happens if someone's been taking drugs and then suddenly stops)? I can't help but wonder if some of these drugs are inadvertently causing schizophrenia in the long run because they're messing with the brain.

    An article I read (sorry, forgot the link) suggested that mental health be more accessible. I think it's a good idea.
     
  10. stephane dumas

    stephane dumas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Messages:
    5,193
    Likes Received:
    84
    You might be on to something, one guy on GMInsidenews nicknamed Neanderthal think more or less of the same thing, posted the following then I quote (since the section of GMInsidenews is posted is only readable for those who are subscribed, I quote the entire post if it don't cause too much inconvience).
    Then I read this post located on City-Data forums posted by a person nicknamed KathrynAragon and it's only the tip of the iceberg
     
  11. Silverbolt

    Silverbolt Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2004
    Messages:
    800
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think new laws will completely fix anything. A lot of the people that commit violence with guns wouldn't have any major issues getting said gun illegally if they were forced. I think some money should be put into non-lethal rounds that would still be lethal to targets and then really increase the price of lethal ammo. Further testing should also be required for anyone to own a gun and I'm not crazy about carry laws, though I do agree with those that have them at my work that those that intend to commit violence with a gun generally aren't going to think twice about whether or not a place allows them.

    There should also be a very steep penalty if you are caught with a gun at any place where such would be deemed very unnecessary. Something like 5-10 years of prison and being banned from owning a fire arm for the rest of your life regardless of what your intention was.
     
  12. defunctzombie

    defunctzombie 1992 not 2002
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    14,833
    Likes Received:
    189
    I agree, however the problem is that no one wants to pay for it. A lot of psychological issues can be treated a hell of a lot more effectively with 1-1 or even group therapy than with medication, but individual sessions can cost hundreds and you need to go at least weekly. 20 sessions at a rate of $100-$200 each isn't as attractive as a bottle of Prozac to the insurance company. You also have to factor in the shortage of licensed psychologists. Any general practitioner can give out medication, but you need intensive training to provide therapy. And sadly, the way the economy is going, not a lot of people want the low profit job of therapist or psychiatrist when you can go for internal medicine.
     
  13. mac4sure

    mac4sure New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry the link did not work out. Go to CNN.com and read "The case for gun rights is stronger than you think"
     
  14. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    29,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is how gun crazy the U.S. can be. A discussion of the Lanza case actually led to ANOTHER shooting when some irrationally responded to another person's desire to kill Lanza as a threat to themselves and got a gun and shot up a barber shop.

    Discussion About Newtown Leads To Shooting In Wentzville Barber Shop « CBS St. Louis

    Recently there was also a guy who shot someone during an argument in a pizza place and another guy who shot some kids after an argument over loud music, both were in public places and in both cases the shooter provoked the conflicts.

    Man shot at St. Pete pizza joint had been complaining about slow service - Tampa Bay Times

    Grand jury indicts man in Fla. loud music shooting - Las Vegas Sun News

    So, yeah, something has to be done. Certainly most gun owners are responsible, but there are also way too many irresponsible and dangerous ones. I think we're simply much too casual about guns. They're something that should be treated with respect and caution and only used when absolutely necessary, not waved around because someone got in your face at a fast food joint.

    The question is how do you make sure guns don't get into the hands of the irresponsible and mentally ill. I think more stringent background checks, longer waiting periods, and higher standards for concealed carry permits would help. I also think assault and military grade weapons should be banned, pistols and rifles are more than enough for self-protection and hunting, the heavy hardware can only be used for nefarious purposes. There's no right to own bombs, so we shouldn't let people own things with just as much destructive potential.

    I'm glad the president has finally been shocked into action on the issue, although it's a shame such an awful act was what it took to convince him. Too often he lets political calculations get in the way of his own principles, but he's finally moving toward meeting campaign promises on gun control and it will be interesting to see what recommendations his commission makes.
     
  15. Jenk

    Jenk Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    0
    No gun control. No exceptions.
     
  16. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17,362
    Likes Received:
    216
    I tend to lean towards the more conservative line of thought on this issue, but I keep on imagining this awful scenario where a deranged madman walks into a mall and kills 2 or 3 people, then takes his own life - and while most people are fleeing the scene, in rush a couple of mall patrons with concealed/carry licenses, and they're whipping out their guns, and upon spotting each other they think the other person is the gunman (who's already dead) and they start firing upon each other. One of them kills the other and proclaims "I have saved the day!" but just then, in runs another man with concealed carry, and he starts firing upon the other guy...and it just keeps repeating as more and more concealed carry people arrive.

    It sounds like a sequence that I'd imagine seeing on Family Guy, or American Dad.

    The serious side of what I just posted above is this: I think "concealed carry" is good, and can save lives, but how much percentage of the population truly needs the responsibility of a concealed handgun?
     
  17. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    29,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's not something that could only happen in a cartoon. It's something that nearly happened in real life. During the Jared Loughner incident there was a guy on the scene with a concealed carry permit and he nearly shot somebody. Not Loughner, though. He nearly shot the guy who took the gun from Loughner, and it was only because he hesitated that an honest to goodness hero survived.

    Joe Zamudio and the Gabrielle Giffords shooting: How an armed hero nearly shot the wrong man. - Slate Magazine


    Also, even if things don't get friendly fire, just having a gun doesn't mean you'll be able to use it to take out a gunman. They don't make you invincible Brendan McKown pulled a gun during a shooting incident in Tacoma. The shooter simply blew him away, he ended up being the most seriously injured of all the victims.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4169986.html
     
    #17 Shawn Hopkins, Dec 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2012
  18. Punisher

    Punisher One Shot At Glory

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    5,007
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, before any action is taking on the issue of gun control, I'd want to see the government present a clear cut definition of what an "assault weapon" truly is, because to say that its current definition is vague is an understatement. Is it simply the A-15 and other civilian weapons similar to the M16/M4? Here's my problem with trying to ban these weapons, and I'm speaking as somebody who has fired probably over 2000 rounds out of an M4, and can take it apart and reassemble it in my sleep. The simple fact of the matter is that the AR-15 is not a good weapon if you want to kill a large amount of people in a short amount of time, despite the stigma. It will fail you. It failed the Colorado shooter. The reason being is, firing off an entire magazine in the span of a minute is going to jam that rifle, every single time. The bullets are going to double feed, or a round isn't going to properly eject. Whether that was by design or simply a defect of the weapon, I can't say, but despite it's stigma the AR-15 is not a mass murdering machine. It's designed to hit targets accurately at ranges from 50-300 yards with carefully aimed shots. And for that purpose, it's one of the best guns out there. I fear outlawing it because its an "assault weapon" will only hurt enthusiasts who enjoy target shooting and those intent upon murdering are going to simply use smaller, easier to conceal handguns instead.

    So as you can probably guess by now, I'm a gun enthusiast myself. I own a 9mm handgun and a .22 and .270 rifle. The 9mm is for CCW and home protection, the others for practice shooting since I don't really hunt. In addition to that, I've fired and handled more weapons in my lifetime than I can even count. I firmly believe that it is my constitutional right to keep these weapons, and it would be an infringement upon those rights for the government to tell me that I have to turn in my 17 round clip for the 9mm in exchange for a 3 or 5 round clip.

    I do not believe that simply pointing the finger at our guns and identifying them as the sole problem in our society is going to solve anything. The problem of gun violence goes much, much deeper than simply the fact that they are easier to get in the United States than in other countries in the world. We have a culture that desensitizes children to violence at an extremely young age, and a culture where mental illness has become more widespread and yet at the same time harder to easily identify in many people. I am the last person in the world who would argue for more censorship of things such as movies and video games. I am firmly against that as well. There is just no easy solution to this problem. Mexico has some of the most restrictive gun laws on the planet and the violent crime in that country involving guns is off the charts. If civilians had easier access to weapons would there be less civilian casualties in the drug war down there? It's hard to say. But I do know that inhibiting the right to bear arms is not going to stop these mass murders, not in our country.
     
  19. firefoxprime

    firefoxprime 90s = Golden Years

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wait, when you say desensitized children at an early age, you're refering to violent games, cartoons etc? Or do you mean we've sheltered kids from violence? I'm a lil confused...

    Glad I grew up in the 90s, so all my action cartoons weren't censored from guns etc. Was a sense of realism. Mind you I grew up sheltered (first born so no R rated or even PG-13 movies, haha I watched the first Matrix when I was 15/2005).
     
  20. Shawn Hopkins

    Shawn Hopkins TZ Member of the Year 2013

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    29,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've been playing violent video games for more than 30 years, starting back before you could tell the things you were killing were people, and I grew up watching violent action cartoons and horror movies. I've never hurt anyone. The key component isn't media, it's mental illness, and the mentally ill can be triggered by anything. We need to do a better job of identifying the mentally ill and giving them ways to cope with their frustrations beyond violence. Most mentally ill people can still function in society, it's mostly the ones who are unidentified or who have been failed by the system and their families that cause problems.

    The NRA's press conference was a crazy scene today. I thought they were going to offer some kind of middle ground solution, but, nope, they stuck to their guns (ouch). Their plan is "moar guns, guns in our schools!" And also blaming everything but guns. There were also a bunch of protesters there.

    NRA: Gun bans at schools create dangerous places - CNN.com


    Some theme music for when you read that.

    [video=youtube;nV5cqfuY-mQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV5cqfuY-mQ[/video]
     

Share This Page

  • Find Toonzone on Facebook

  • Toonzone News

  • Site Updates

    Upcoming Premieres

  • Toonzone Fan Sites


Tac Anti Spam from Surrey Forum