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Genndy Tartakovsky should be put in charge of Marvel Animation

Discussion in 'The Marvel Animation Forum' started by spyke, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I never had much of an emotional connection to Ultimate line other than enjoying Ultimate X-Men for a while, but I think it dropped off after Brian K. Vaughn's run.

    I get that Loeb's polarizing, but he's also been responsible for a ton of great stories as well. Batman: The Long Halloween is a seminal Batman story. Spider-Man: Blue is a good standalone, retro Spider-Man story. Haunted Knight is a good set of anthology stories he did with Tim Sale pre-Long Halloween, plus Long Halloween's follow-up Dark Victory. I like Hush a lot as well, except for the last couple of issues where I felt like they didn't stick the landing.

    I get that people are angry about Ultimatum or whatever, but that doesn't suddenly erase the good stories he's worked on over the years.
     
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  2. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Unfortunately nowadays, his bad stuff overweighs his good stuff. However, while working on Ultimatum, he was at the time suffering from a emotional breakdown due to the passing of his son Sam from cancer.

    Outside of the good stuff he's done as you mentioned, he also co-wrote the screenplay of Commando.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
  3. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    How is that? Executive producer on Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Jessica Jones, all of which were highly acclaimed well received and successful shows. What's the bad stuff?

    Anyway, I think we are getting off track here.
     
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  4. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Well, his runs on Hulk and Wolverine are divisive along with The Ultimates being another story line that derailed Ultimate Marvel plus though well liked by younger audiences, his Nova run isn't well liked by older audiences, who view the Sam Alexander incarnation as Loeb's creator's pet since he was named after his deceased son plus he's considered a base breaking character in the Ultimate Spider-Man TV show along with Spidey himself and White Tiger, which is similar to Damian Wayne, who is well liked by younger fans but not well liked by older fans.

    But anyway, let's move on from this.

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  5. spyke

    spyke Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to leave you with this little tidbit from someone I know who is very good friends with someone who has worked at both Marvel and DC as an editor (I won't mention said former editor's name). According to my very reliable source, said former editor told him that Loeb is considered to be a hack among his fellow pros. He also said that Loeb stole other writers ideas. Since this is hearsay from a secondary source, take it with a grain salt. Now back on topic.
     
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  6. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    Never heard about this before. I understand why he's a polarizing figure, but my point is this. I seldom see people want to give him credit for the great projects he has been involved in, especially as of late. They only want to complain when they perceive him as having wronged a show.
     
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  7. Medinnus

    Medinnus Moderator
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    There is a HUGE difference between writing a good comic - even a great comic - and being an executive who drives others to produce quality animation. They are entirely different skill sets and it is a failing of the inexperienced to assume competence or excellence in one area implies competence in other areas.

    Hence the phrase "idiot savant", in its extreme form.

    Loeb may be an excellent comic writer, but he stinks on ice as an executive and a leader. IMO.
     
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  8. KombatMaster94

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    Speaking of different skillets, having different skillets in writing, art, development, and leadership is part of my goal as a media creator in a few mediums. I have tons of things I wanna do in that career, but in the case of Marvel I'd like to spearhead my own animated universe (Avengers, Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four) and work on some shorts and movies in it too.
     
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  9. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    Based on what exactly? Marvel TV has been doing pretty well as of late, and he seems to have led that division well in terms of growth and well received shows that have had his name on them.
     
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  10. spyke

    spyke Well-Known Member

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    Here's the million dollar question. Is Marvel TV doing well because of Loeb or in spite of him? Are people MAINLY watching Marvel TV shows because of (a) creative decisions made by Loeb (b) creative decisions made by other people working on those shows or (c) because these shows have the "MARVEL" brand/label/name on them?
     
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  11. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    He's the head of the ship, so to say it's all in spite of him is sort of silly. It'd be like saying Disney Animation Studios is doing well in spite of John Lasseter.
     
    #51 TheVileOne, Mar 26, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  12. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Uh, unfortunately the recent Marvel cartoons under him has been criticised for being a carbon copy of the MCU.

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  13. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    What's your point? I fail to see what's unfortunate about it either. Not everything is a carbon copy of the MCU. If that was the case, we would never have seen the original Thunderbolts lineup in Avengers Assemble, which was Steve Wacker's idea FYI. Anyway, as of late Loeb seems more focused on the live action side while Wacker has gotten more hands on with the TV animation side.

    Obviously, the newer shows took cues from the movies. I can see how that might bother some, but it's not necessarily a bad idea to continue on those threads.

    Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes took numerous cues from the MCU. And no one complained. Iron Man was set up as the leader of the team, and it's all based on the popularity of his character. Iron Man was the premiere Marvel hero at the time due to the Iron Man movies, so they had to make sure the little kids won't get upset that the No. 1 hero wasn't the leader. JARVIS was a computer AI. A new voice actor to sound more like Robert Downey Jr., etc. It's nothing new.

    You've failed to address my previous point. Spyke suggested that Marvel TV is succeeding and doing well in spite of Jeph Loeb rather than anything he's actually doing. Yet there's no proof as such other than a lot of sour grapes over how you perceive Jeph Loeb messed up your favorite characters.

    Medinnus claims he stinks as an executive and leader, and yet look at where Marvel TV is right now and how well its prospered. So, they made a Netflix TV deal for $200 million and produced several successful shows. Daredevil already has a third season in the works. Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are getting second seasons. The Punisher is in the works. Cloak and Dagger is in the works. Runaways is in the works. All on different networks or streaming services.

    Marvel TV is also co-producing X-Men shows with Fox. Think about that. Marvel TV was able to make a bridge with 20th Century Fox TV in order to co-produce X-Men themed TV shows. Whether you like it or not, Loeb is a part of that process.
     
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    #53 TheVileOne, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  14. brodie999

    brodie999 Active Member

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    Yeah, But despite the negative reviews, Iron Fist is the second highest debuting Marvel show next to Luke Cage. Sometimes Critics are doing the wrong thing when they review stuff. We've got to force them to delete all the negative reviews and review all 13 episodes more positively so the show can receive critical acclaim. It doesn't deserve all of this hate. They've condemned it before they even watched it to the end.
     
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  15. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    Then I guess you haven't read other fans' comments on said shows.

    Well, one of the problems with the current Marvel animated shows is that they lack of a Bruce Timm/Alan Burnett/Paul Dini-type figure. Those three were responsible for the DC Animated Universe and I would hardly classify Wacker as that type. Wacker is just the executive producer of those shows and not the creative force, nor the main producer, showrunner or head writer of them, but does have a say on those shows.

    Loeb still is involved in the animated stuff, even if he's involved in more live-action stuff plus he's not to blame for the problems that affected Iron Fist, since that honour goes to showrunner Scott Buck.

    It's unfortunately oversaturation and to be fair, not every superhero animated show has to be like the films. Batman: The Animated Series did have elements of the Burton films but it had different elements that made it one of the best animated adaptations of either DC or Marvel.

    No-one complained since the MCU was in its infancy and that The Avengers wasn't in production, when this show began airing. When The Avengers became a huge blockbuster, Marvel and Disney decided to cancel EMH in favour of a cartoon that is more like the films and people haven't forgotten about that.

    No proof? Have you actually done any research on why he's a divisive figure?

    The live-action TV shows are doing successfully than the animated shows by critical and fanatical response from older fans.

    You defend Loeb, yet ignore the bad stuff he's done that was mentioned by others in this forum. Same reason why people show appreciation of the Carol Danvers incarnation of Captain Marvel and the Damian Wayne incarnation of Robin and ignoring the bad stuff they've done.

    Your comments make it that he's the only one in charge of the live-action TV stuff when clearly he isn't since Alan Fine is involved as well plus Joe Quesada, who still remains a very divisive figure among Marvel fans due to his time as EIC in the Noughties and was responsible for undoing the Spider-Marriage with that [garbage] One More Day.

    I don't care if you defend him but you ignore those facts that derailed his career as a comic book writer and artist.

    And sorry, but those current cartoons that are heavily influenced by the MCU is not what fans like me want. This is why there hasn't been a great Marvel animated show since EMH, Spectacular Spider-Man and Wolverine and the X-Men.

    I like the MCU but it's on the level of being overrated.

    Again, I hate your idea of forcing critics to delete all their negative reviews and review all 13 episodes more positively. They have a right to criticise and have pretty much reviewed all of the episodes before the TV show made it to Netflix.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

    Mod Note: Language.
     
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    #55 AdrenalineRush1996, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2017
  16. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I've ready comments and complaints. Again, what's your point?


    I'm not sure they need one? Paul Dini worked on both Ultimate Spider-Man and Hulk and the Agents of SMASH FYI. I don't understand why everyone has to do everything like the DCAU just because you like it that way. Just because you aren't happy with the Marvel Animation model doesn't mean it's failing or aren't successful at it. People are clearly watching and enjoying the shows.


    OK, but not everything has to be done the way BTAS did it either. These shows have a target demo of young males around age 6-14. And they probably saw and loved the movies, and they are trying to capitalize on that.

    The show had a good run. It had 52 episodes that were ordered and produced. Good shows get cancelled and killed often, some with even shorter runs than Earth's Mightiest Heroes. It was a good show that had a good run. It would've been nice if it was on longer, but you make it sound like they were personally out to get you. What people haven't forgotten about it though? A handful of people that write on forums or would start a petition on Change.org?

    None of it's valid proof. It's all just opinions and perceptions.

    That's not a barometer of success for these shows really. Why should Marvel Animation cater to what the older fans want, especially if they are just going to watch anyway so they will complain?

    I'm not ignoring it at all. But most of it is just hearsay such as "Loeb's peers think he's a hack" or "Loeb is a great comic writer but he stinks as an executive and leader," which by that statement alone is demonstrably false.

    He is the head of TV. That's his official title. He's not the only guy calling the shots or anything, but basically what you are saying here that Alan Fine and Joe Quesada deserve credit for Marvel TV's success as well. And frankly, I never said they shouldn't. So your point is lost on me. I didn't like One More Day either, but what do you want me to say? Joe Quesada, I'll never forgive you for One More Day! It was so terrible that I won't credit you at all for any of your contribution's to Marvel TV's success!!! If that's what you want me to say, sorry, not happening.

    These aren't facts. These are opinions. Just because you don't like them or want them doesn't mean others do not.

    Even if you call Iron Fist a failure for Marvel TV based on the bad reviews and low Rotten Tomato score, Marvel TV was previously very consistent with its Netflix shows which generally had rave reviews and acclaim.

    I highly recall one online critic was claiming Daredevil on Netflix was getting lots of bad buzz. This critic put that out on Twitter, and then screeners went out. I was one of the critics who got the early screeners for Daredevil. And it was fantastic. And then reviews started pouring in and there wasn't a single bad review for Daredevil in 2015. But I do remember some people talking about that one critic's tweet, and they were ready to rake Jeph Loeb over the hot coals if the show turned out bad. So...the show didn't turn out bad and it was a homerun out of the park. So, do you not credit Jeph Loeb at all, or just say, everything that's happened with Marvel Netflix is directly in spite of Loeb and he's had nothing to do with why most of these shows have been successful at all?

    OK, so Iron Fist if you want to call it a failure because of bad reviews, that's still three out of four really solid TV efforts on Netflix. Plus, the launch of Punisher this year. That's not so terrible. You don't hit a homerun every time you're at bat.
     
    #56 TheVileOne, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2017
  17. AdrenalineRush1996

    AdrenalineRush1996 Active Member

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    The point is you ignore the bad things.

    And Man of Action worked on both USM and Avengers Assemble.

    I mean it in stylistically.

    Though not as popular as the previous ones.


    But it fails to impress older fans. BTAS worked since there were elements that wouldn't have been towards children.

    But there were also plans for a third season prior to cancellation.

    No, I didn't.

    That it was cancelled in favour of Avengers Assemble.

    Yet you haven't found any interviews or comments from others criticising Loeb.

    Because unlike the previous Marvel cartoons, the current ones are more aimed at a younger demographic like TTG and I think Marvel Animation should do an animated direct-to-video franchise aimed at an older audience like DC has done since 2007. I know Marvel has done DTV films before but this one should be ongoing.

    Yet you still haven't found anything from other comic book personnel critical of him.

    I think that title shouldn't apply to one person.

    Well, your comments did make it that Loeb is the only one in charge of said division.

    No, that's not what I wanted you to say for discrediting him. I didn't even wanted you say anything about that.

    Well, there hasn't been one appreciated by older fans since EMH. I don't want Marvel Animation to continue ignoring appeal to older fans.

    You continue to dismiss such negative things about Loeb as hearsay and you've come off as a bit too far.

    Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk
     
    #57 AdrenalineRush1996, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  18. RoyalRubble

    RoyalRubble Moderator
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    This discussion is going in circles as well as pretty much turning into a complaint thread in regards to people currently working at Marvel.

    It's fine to discuss the prospect of Genndy Tartakovsky working on a Marvel show or to add suggestions about who you'd like to see tackle a certain Marvel property, as I think was the point of this topic originally, so please try and stick to that.
     
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  19. SweetShop209

    SweetShop209 Well-Known Member

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    In the case of a Marvel DVD movies, remember that Disney owns Marvel now. Any animated projects would get nothing higher than a PG rating since Disney only makes animation that's intended to appeal to both kids and adults, not just adults. The Marvel movies between 2006-2011 were produced before Disney bought Marvel, hence why they got PG-13 ratings. The two recent animated movies are the Marvel Frost Fight and Hulk: Where Monsters Dwell movies, both of which were produced after Disney bought Marvel, hence why they got PG ratings.

    Back to the topic at hand, I could see Genndy in charge of the Marvel animated DVD line. He can add his usual style found in both Samurai Jack and Sym Bionic Titan, and considering Disney owns Marvel, they have a better chance of appealing to kids and adults.
     
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  20. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    OK, but why would Tartakovsky do that when he can direct bigger animated features at Sony?
     

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