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Election Day 2016 LIVE Talkback Thread

Discussion in 'Cafe toonzone' started by wonderfly, Nov 6, 2016.

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  1. Peter Paltridge

    Peter Paltridge Knows about rock people
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    Bannon is in favor of Affirmative Action! .....for whites.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c66362-ab69-11e6-a31b-4b6397e625d0_story.html

    #1 problem in America....too many Asian CEOs! Gotta get rid of some....
     
  2. ToonLoon

    ToonLoon Member

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    If people want to know what Bannon really thinks about a lot of things, here is a fairly long talk you can read in its entirety, completely unedited or editorialized.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfede...e-entire-world?utm_term=.se2k8qRNl#.qyGOAGaBr

    There's audio too but it isn't great quality. At the very least, you guys can scan it and mine for juicy quotes. But nothing too controversial to be found at least I hope that can be agreed upon.
     
  3. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is set to meet with Trump today.

    Usually foreign heads of state wait until a President-Elect is sworn in, but Abe apparently wanted to be proactive and get things off to a good start. They will be meeting in New York at Trump Tower. Compare Abe's commitment to embracing (or confronting?) a Trump administration head on, to European Union officials holding an emergency summit on how to deal with Trump, a meeting which the U.K. and France snubbed. Trump's going to take notes on who's on our side and who stands in opposition.
     
  4. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    @ToonLoon Bannon doesn't sound as scary on tape as they make him out to be in the article.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/vide...54c606-ab89-11e6-8f19-21a1c65d2043_video.html

    @wonderfly Your interpretation of that Guardian piece is a little extreme in my opinion. Even if it was an emergency meeting, can you blame them after his comments on NATO? Remember, Trump also said he'd rather have Japan defend itself as well, so if I were Shinzo Abe, I'd want reassurances from Trump as soon as possible, or at least a heads-up on what his intentions are going forward.

    EDIT: Sounds like the meeting went smoothly.
    http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-abe-trump-20161117-story.html
     
    #244 Dreyfus, Nov 17, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  5. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    So, we have another appointment: retired General Michael Flynn as National Security Advisor. He's a great guy who said Islam is cancer, and advocates bringing back torture and is pretty gung-ho on the whole "killing the families of terrorists" thing. It's funny that Trump based that policy on the mother of the San Bernadino shooter, even though the FBI has not proven she had prior knowledge of what happened.

    A Huffington Post reporter on Twitter claimed John Bolton is close to be named Secretary of State. He's a king neocon who wants an Iranian regime change. So we have another endless Middle Eastern war possibly coming, goody. Iran is much bigger and stronger than Iraq was in 2003, so I don't see that ending too well. Bear in mind, Bolton was heavily involved in the Iraq War.

    For those that didn't hear about what happened with Carl Higbie, here it is in a nutshell. He's a Trump supporter who says he is in favour of a Muslim ban and used the Japanese internment camps as precedent. Seriously.
    He was on CNN today and said
    Well no, the Constitution is supposed to be free of religious influence, hence the whole separation of church and state thing. Regardless, it's starting. The fear campaign, the alarmism. I'm not saying they're aren't issues we are having with Islam and that no concern is warranted, but he is crossing over into hate. Why am I talking about a ban? Because Kris Kobach, the favourite for Attorney General confirmed the Trump team is talking about it. I defy anyone to defend any of this.
     
  6. ToonLoon

    ToonLoon Member

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    Democrats had the perfect opportunity this election to finally discuss the ideological problems with some forms of Islam and how that affects vetting in immigration. Really confront and treat the issue with maturity and nuance.

    But they were so scared some people might be offended, they shucked their responsibility and we are still in the wild west so to speak where what is racist and what are good policy concerns are still blurred together for many people. Which is a shame, I agree with you completely on that. But I also hate seeing the media try to claim that Japanese internment camps are an actual, real world model Trump will be using because one foolish supporter was spouting nonsense.
     
    #246 ToonLoon, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  7. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    More appointments have been made:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/u...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    Hard for me to see any silver lining in these picks, but I would love to get the conservative perspective on them. I guess they'll be tough on ISIS, but I don't think their views see nuance and that's dangerous. I am still hopeful, but I suppose these are the choices we can expect when we vote in someone like Donald Trump.

    @ToonLoon I agree that they have tip-toed around the issue in the political arena, but this is largely a matter of semantics and I think their choice of separating the religion from the militancy is a good and important distinction. But as for the FDR policies as precedent stuff, that comes straight from Trump himself:
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trump-cites-fdr-policies-defend-muslim-ban/story?id=35648128

    Personally, I can't believe this is even something he is seriously considering trying to do. It doesn't make any sense. Could there really be a policy more blatantly based in fear? More irrational and self-destructive? My hope was that it was just campaign rhetoric and go away.
     
    #247 Dreyfus, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  8. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    Rush Limbaugh (and others) have been talking about the depth of the Democrat Party defeat with this election, and how it is not a fluke, it is the repudiation of Obama and the Left.

    "In Eight Years, Barack Obama has Obliterated the Democrat Party in Record Numbers."

    Quote from that article:

    "Under President Obama, Democrats have lost over 900 state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats."

    That's not from just this election, that's since 2010 onward. So over the last 3 election cycles, this is what's been occurring.

    This article explains that now only 4 states have both Governors and Legislatures that are controlled by Democrats: California, Oregon, Hawaii, and Rhode Island. Every other state has either a split legislature or is fully controlled by Republicans (both Governors and Legislature).

    George Will says that the Supreme Court should now be able to tilt conservative for the next 25 years.

    You know how liberals keep saying that in 25 to 30 years, as whites become more and more a minority, that Republicans will become obsolete? This article argues otherwise. Instead of the "last gasp of angry white voters", Trump made gains in minorities (the article points out, among other statistics, that 1 in 3 Latino males votes for Trump). Turns out every demographic, from Latinos to blacks to white and everything inbetween, are in favor of a candidate promising more jobs and economic growth.

    There's some good quotes in an article by Jonathan Martin at the New York Times: "Pulling Democrats back to 'It's the Economy, Stupid'".

    So are the Democrats being set up for obscurity, and will the Republicans control Washington D.C. for decades to come?

    Back in 2004, after George W. Bush won re-election and with the number of Republicans increasing in both the House and the Senate, I had a liberal friend who was pretty sure that the Democrats were spineless and unable to oppose the Republicans, and therefore he anticipated the Republicans would rule Washington D.C. for the next 30 years. How quickly the tide turned - in 2006, the Democrats made gains and in 2008, Obama took office.

    But after 2012, I was the one who was left wondering if that whole "changing demographics" thing was true and if we were going to be in a period where Democrats controlled Congress for decades to come. And now some pundits want us to believe this election is the start of 30 years of conservatism. I don't know if I buy it. Trump may be the 2nd coming of Ronald Reagan, but even the popular Reagan had Democrats running Congress for all 8 years of his presidency.

    I guess the answer is: wait and see. ;)
     
  9. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    Something that article fails to point out: that Obama is quite popular. He's actually above average in terms of popularity for a President at this point in his final term. Meanwhile, the Republican congress has a popularity of 13%. Oh well. Perhaps the reason for Trump's victory is more than a repudiation of Obama, it was a repudiation of the system, and it certainly didn't hurt that the Democrats put forth a historically awful nominee.

    Yes, Trump made gains, largely small ones. Clinton still won 88% of the black vote, and it would have been larger had she bothered to try and reach out the black community. An NBC exit poll said that 21% of black voters are concerned of a Trump presidency, while a whopping 68% said they would be scared. Yes, he did better than Romney with black voters, but that's nothing to brag about. He was on par with Bush in 2000. That same poll finds that 23% of Hispanics are concerned about a Trump presidency, while 43% are scared. We'll see how that goes. If the deportation force happens, those numbers may plummet. What if things get rough? What if the economy tanks when all those workers leave? Deporting all those people may seem great until Latinos are stopped and asked for their papers, as Trump transition team member Kris Kobach proposed in Arizona.

    Dreaming in technicolour. Good luck getting a single Muslim voter if these proposals that appear to be real are made law. Read the links I've posted previously, and look at the people who Trump is naming to his administration.Stop and frisk is deeply unpopular among minorities, and yet it appears that it's going to be a national thing. The only way this could happen is if Trump beats Lincoln in terms of being a president and does such an unbelievably good job that not a single person in their right mind would dare be a liberal. In other words, not gonna happen.

    Mike Huckabee, the guy who blamed swastika graffiti on Jewish liberals is ambassador to Israel. He has said in the past the West Bank is a part of Israel, which is a pretty good idea of where the administration will go in terms of that conflict. Can I just point out how many government veterans Trump is naming to his team? So much for draining the swamp.
     
  10. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    The "Huckabee as Ambassador to Israel" thing isn't true. Unless that link is about to be refuted. It's not making the news on any of the major sites though, so I think it's an unsubstantiated rumor, for now.

    On Obama's popularity, there are those that believe it's not true. Much in the same way that the polling on Trump was incorrect - people were afraid to come out and say they support Trump, likewise people are afraid to come out and say they don't care for the way Obama has governed, because they'll come across as racist or something.

    In polling, when you separate Obama personally from the questions being asked, the truth comes out. Instead of asking "Do you like how President Obama's done", if you ask "Do you like how your health insurance has changed" or "Do you feel more safe from terrorist attacks lately", or "Do you feel good about how many people are unemployed" the answer shows people are not satisfied with this administration's accomplishments.

    This election is a rebuke of Obama's policies. People just think Obama's personally a pretty cool guy, someone you may want to hang out with...just not someone you want leading this country anymore.
     
  11. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    I did jump the gun on the Huckabee, my bad. The polling on Trump was incorrect largely because news organizations forgot how to read poll internals, which is different here. Your idea as to why Obama's popularity may be where it is makes little sense to me. Yes, the shy Trump voter was a real thing it would seem, but the same isn't true about Obama. Saying you like Trump is FAR more controversial and seemingly non PC than disliking Obama. Only the craziest of liberal fringes actually believe that everyone who hates Obama is a racist, and I don't think the fear of being scorned by that tiny group is enough to get people to willingly lie. I don't think you're giving people enough credit. Saying you dislike the leader of your country is as noncontroversial a thing as you could say. And if you were right, why then has Obama's popularity plunged into the 30s at various points, only to later rally? His popularity was at 39% at one point in 2014, did people suddenly decide that saying you disliked him was racist in the last two years? And yes, it's possible that people who think Obama is a cool guy you'd like to hang out with helps his popularity, but people said the same thing about W, who left the White House with an approval rating of 34%. So I think saying this election was nothing more than a rebuke of Obama is a bit simplistic. I'm not saying that wasn't part of it, but there's plenty of holes in your theory that was the only reason.

    The more I think about Flynn's appointment, the more troubled I am. This guy has said Islam is a cancer. Well guess what? The US is in a close alliance with Turkey, the second biggest army in NATO. How do you think they're going to like dealing with him, or with the registry and things like that? It could be a disaster.
     
  12. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    Bannon seems to think the Republican party is going to control the government for a generation if all goes according to plan. But the American people are incredibly fickle and all it takes is one mistake for the country to turn the other way. It doesn't even have to be a mistake really, it could just be continued stagnation, not enough getting done, etc. for Democrats to capitalize on. This is why the presidency generally swings from party to party, at least from a historical perspective. If you don't get done what the majority of people want you to (namely better jobs, economic growth), you're out and the next guy gets a shot at it.
     
  13. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    If it was possible to figure out a formula for a party to stay in power for a generation, someone would have figured it out already in the past 238 years. People in democratic countries go back and forth between parties, it's what we do. It would be insane to think that could happen, and even more insane considering the GOP is about to swear in an historically unpopular president.
     
  14. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    But there is a formula and it's the same as it's always been. Do what the majority of the country wants you to do and it will be very difficult for the other side to argue against yours. What really takes you down is not getting that done or extenuating circumstances that make you look bad.
     
  15. Spideyzilla

    Spideyzilla Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't take into account changing ways of thinking. There is always a recoil and backlash to current ways of thinking, and the backlash can sometimes become the new way of thinking. The far right days of the 2000s fuelled the liberal boom and carried Obama into the White House. Now there is backlash against the massive political correctness that has gone on, and the pendulum swung the other way. It'll go back to the left at some point. Thinking the GOP will hold onto power is not only fanciful thinking, it's dangerous. One party should NEVER hold onto power that long, that is the death of democracy. We need ways of thinking to change, and we need the right and left to keep each other honest. God help any country if one party held onto power that long.
     
  16. Dreyfus

    Dreyfus Active Member

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    @wonderfly Or maybe they just don't blame those things on Obama.

    @Spideyzilla Yes, but the backlash was due to all the mistakes Bush made, namely the Iraq War. If he just did popular stuff, there wouldn't be a huge backlash. I know that sounds unrealistic (how can anyone not make a mistake?), but if Trump just focused on jobs and growth, the things we all want, he'd be best situated for re-election in my opinion. If he goes off and does his own thing, he will be less so. This is why I think these farther-right appointments are not just bad for the country, but bad for Republicans' chances in the future.

    There are too few politicians willing to just listen to us and do what we want, instead of pushing their own agenda. Ideologues who refuse to put their own opinions aside and simply do their best to serve the American people are digging their own graves.
     
    #256 Dreyfus, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  17. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    After talking with my fellow Cafe mod, I think we've reached a good ending point. Everyone that's wanted to say their piece on this election has had a chance. Closing the Election thread a week or two after the Election matches the way we've done things back in 2008 and 2012. If there is enough interest, a "General Political Discussion" thread will be launched with the new year come January (though we're going to take a break now on discussing politics for the holidays). Send me a private message if interested in having political discussion next year, or if you have questions.

    I want to thank all that did participate and it was a good discussion over this last year! :)

    Thread closed.
     
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