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"Civil War" Mini-Series & Crossover Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Comic Book Culture' started by Wonder Woman, May 3, 2006.

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  1. Beat

    Beat Retired

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    The logic here is completely and utterly flawed. From Marvel's perspective, not yours.

    Captain American was someone who stood for an ideal. An ideal of what American should be, not the reality of "Celebrities treated like royalty, and teachers like dirt." That's why he resigned his role after the fallout from Watergate. That's why he's opposed the government. That's why he stood toe-to-toe with Thanos realizing that he had absolutely no chance of winning. What Marvel's just done is tell readers "Captain America is now no longer relevant at all, nor are his ideals." It used to be "People put on a costume and fought villains because they thought it was the right thing." Now it's "People are all cynical, whiny, self-centered people who want a paycheck."

    America the reality is imperfect, and everyone knows it. That's why America the ideal exists. But Marvel just went and said "The ideal doesn't work today either, and neither do all of our characters that were made to reflect that ideal." I don't think this is political so much as it is the pervasive cynicism that American comic book publishers have been wallowing in long since before Shounen Jump began outselling their titles infiltrating every aspect of the industry and its stories. I think there's definitely a time and place for cynicism, snarkniness, etc, but stuff like this makes you wonder why people even read comics in the first place.

    Quite frankily, Civil War is such a compounded, out of character, and just plain horribly written mess that everyone involved has had their character permanently destroyed, and just maybe might be fixed somewhat by a retcon 2 or 3 years down the road. Maybe.

    In closing...this sums up Civil War.

    [​IMG]

    This is why I don't read comics from the big labels anymore. At least Udon is still making Street Fighter...

    EDIT- And one more thing. Isn't making superheroes the sole force in society a bad thing? Wasn't that the entire point of Squadron Supreme?
     
    #361 Beat, Mar 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2007
  2. Invidente 7

    Invidente 7 Active Member

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    Bravo! Brilliant! The BEST comment I ever read about that bloody mess EVER! :raven2: Sir I fully agree with you, Marvel is totally destroying the cornerstones of their universe just to make a quick buck, what's worse, our comic book *industry* have folowed the same steps (Thinking superheroes are dumb, and relying on cinism, sarcasm and snarkyness) and you know what happened? Our comic book industry went broke, and as for it now it is reduced to a bunch of left wing loonies whining about the evil capitalist government and similar crap, boy I'm sure glad that DC fully rejected Mark Millar's proposals (He wanted to do an event where WW was raped?! :mad: ) and went the road that I'm sure it will take them to even higher grounds
     
  3. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    I have, never, ever agreed with you more about anything. You've said everything I wanted to say about this and then some. Cynicism is exactly the word for this. The ending was bad enough before, now with frontline I see it as nothing but a slap in the face to me as an American, and a slap in the face to everybody that reads comics expecting to find heroism only to find a half-assed, morally confused mess of unmitigated garbage. Ultimately I just feel insulted by the whole thing.

    In short: screw you, Marvel. I was considering really getting into comics for awhile. Now? Except for Spider Man 3--you know, where they know how to write a good story--they can forget about getting a damn cent of my money.
     
  4. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    Okay, what's the objective of superhero groups like the Avengers and DC's Justice League?

    In other words: been there, done that. But of course, the Federal Government always knows what's best so giving them control over it all is an amazing idea. :sweat:
     
  5. Conan-san

    Conan-san Active Member

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    Same deal, cept SM3 = Runaways...unless they nuke that too with this.
     
  6. GregX

    GregX Active Member

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    I like where all this is going. all me a cynic, but I love when stories aren't black and white but different shades of grey. Same with the characters. As an aspiring writer myself, I don't write good guys or bad guys. I write characters. In real life, nothing is quite ever that clear cut as "Super Hero" and "Super Villain".
     
  7. Beat

    Beat Retired

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    The thing is though, it's not grey. It's black and white, just black and white in a different way.

    Old ideals = bad.
    Rotten modern society = good.
     
  8. jv2k

    jv2k Faster than the fat flash

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    They aren't rejecting Captain America at all. The pro-regs throughout the entire run of the comic have been vilified. Even in the aftermath as you can clearly see in that scan. The entire point of that piece had to be because they wanted us as readers to get angry.

    The interview is there to show you why the pro-regs got the peoples support. It wasn't just because of the ideal it was partly because of the tremendous bias in the Marvel U media. Although we as readers can clearly see both sides for what they are the media has twisted the ant-regs and vilified them.

    The niche of comic book readers isn't the same demographic that obsesses over American Idol or worships Paris Hilton. I don't think there can be any question about that. It would not make any sense for Marvel to write such a scene that unless there is going to be an event in the future where Sally eventually eats those words and calls out for that ideal Captain America stands for. He will be back to win back the American public.

    On a side not did anyone else envision a panel with caps hand smacking Sally in the face after her little pop culture rant?
     
  9. GregX

    GregX Active Member

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    Some how, I doubt it. Yes, that stupid reporter said all that, doesn't make it true. I think the pendulim is gonna shift.

    I don't see the end of Civil War as the end of a story so much as the end of an Act. Sooner or later the other shoe is going to drop.
     
  10. Juu-kuchi

    Juu-kuchi Everypony's Starry-Eyed

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    Here's my particular viewpoint of the issue:

    I believe Sally's rant at Captain America seems to enforce not so much that shallow materialism and ideals are good, but to bring to light a part of what exactly he is fighting for. He believes in the ideals of America and for the good of the country, but what happens when there the country he loves no longer supports him, and thus brings to light how he had wrought such damage as he did during Civil War #7, and nowadays seem to manifest a different ideal than what he was brought up to believe in. In my opinion, this provides a rather distinctive piece that would affect how Cap fights for truth, justice, and the American Way, in future issues. We'll see how it affects him then.

    Or maybe I'm just too inexperienced with comics to understand the difference between a comic artwork or a comic abortion.
     
    #370 Juu-kuchi, Mar 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2007
  11. Sage Shinigami

    Sage Shinigami Active Member

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    That's not true at all. People have been splashing buckets of grey on the world and its problems so long that its almost like people can't, or rather, don't want to see what's right and wrong anymore. There are more rapists, child molestors, and murderers in this world than there ever was before--tell me what's "grey" about them. Now, certainly everyone in this world (and in a believeable world of fiction) BELIEVES what they're doing is right, but from a neutral perspective it shouldn't be nearly as hard to see if they're actually wrong or right as people try to make us believe. In my eyes, the only thing this story has done is make me drop both the Avengers and Iron Man (though I haven't read Avengers since the crappy Disassembled), two comics I grew up with, and I will probably always be a little pissed at Marvel for that.

    We can only hope. But you are right about everyone's character being almost totally destroyed. Even the Anti-Reg heroes who we're supposed to believe "got too caught up in the Civil War". I wouldn't say that about either side when these are REAL, veteran heroes. I mean, honestly how hard would it have been to have shown the Anti-Reg heroes nearly losing because they were so busy saving lives that were being endangered by the fight? In fact, how hard would it have been to have had BOTH sides do the same thing before realizing that the entire fight was totally stupid (as both sides are heroes), and then make up a compromise.

    The Avengers were already a UN power on their own once (at least I THINK that's what happened in Johns very brilliant run), so why not have them be one again? Funded by Tony Stark and Reed Richards, every hero has to register, every hero has to train. They have nothing to do with the American government but it WOULD keep heroes from repeating the mistakes made in CW #1. And I bet there's not a hero IN the Marvel U that would trust SHIELD and the government moreso than the Avengers. The heroes that *have* been registered with SHIELD, Tony steals the data, erases their hard drives of any and all possible data that can be found, and the data is now used to start a much more clean, and much more honest registration for the Avengers. (This would result in all Avengers members being persona non grata with SHIELD, but oh well.) Because the truth is that people in other countries get attacked by supervillains too, and if they're not on friendly terms with the US, the Pro-Reg teams would be forbidden from going to that country, wouldn't they? Or am I missing something about how all of this works?
     
  12. RogueFanKC

    RogueFanKC Eulalia!

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    Good point; justice and superheroes aren't limited to one country

    No, I don't believe you're missing anything. I don't think SHIELD has changed it's alliance from the U.S first (if someone can correct me, I rescind my post whole-heartedly). Which is why it was a BAD idea for SHIELD to be now a U.S. agency instead of the U.N. Especially since the decision of one country does not reflect what's best for other countries, so SHIELD allying firstmost with the United States makes it more of an imperialist group. And how much you want to bet that the OTHER hundred or so countries aren't going to be very happy when they find out SHIELD's shift in its charter?

    And suddenly, when I just typed that, I had the horrible thought brought up by a friend via e-mail about how this could easily lead to a superhero-arms race between all countries all over the world. :eek:

    And you pointed out a major flaw in Civil War's registration: if there was a crisis in another country, how much you want to bet that there'll be people in Congress who will tell the Avengers to sit it out and ignore it because it's not America's problem? At least if they were U.N. allied, then they'd be more likely to help out all super-villain problems all around the world, as they were meant to. Like how in the animated JLU, the JL didn't just help out the U.S. but they helped out ALL countries.

    I agree with your reasoning that there is a way that the registration with SHIELD could be more honest, but unfortunately, it doesn't look like Marvel's going to take it. Bleh...
     
  13. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    From what I've seen in this thread, we've got several calls for people wishing Captain America's side had won, but you have to stop and think: If they had somehow "won the war", if the Registration Act had been repealed, then the old status quo would return to the Marvel Universe...and if you're going to tell a story of this magnitude only for the old status quo to return, then what's the point in telling the story?

    The ending we actually got, (even though it was poorly handled in some areas) sets up a unique status quo for the Marvel universe which we've NEVER seen before! Who would've thought we'd have a Marvel universe where Captain America was considered a traitor by the American people and locked away in prison, a Marvel Universe where Spider-Man's secret identity had been revealed, a Marvel Universe, where Norman Osborn was in charge of the Thunderbolts, a Marvel Universe where Tony Stark was appointed to be head of SHIELD, and a Marvel Universe where every state in the USA had it's own sanctioned superhero team!

    There is a LOT of potential in these concepts, but I guess some people would be happier if Marvel kept on telling the same old stories showing Captain America fighting Hydra, and Spider-Man fighting the Green Goblin...and you better believe that those types of stories will return some day, but in the meantime, can't we enjoy this different direction the Marvel Universe is heading in?!?

    And if you're really this tore up about how the Civil War ended, shouldn't that be your cue to pick up titles where the "Anti-Registration" people are still fighting? Spider-Man's still a wanted fugitive in his books, the New Avengers are also fugitives, and Captain America is now in prison...if you care about Captain America this much, shouldn't you pick up the next issue of Captain America next week, to see how he survives in prison?
     
  14. RogueFanKC

    RogueFanKC Eulalia!

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    It can be interesting, but it causes many to be OOC

    I do see what you're saying and you are right; it CAN lead to a few interesting prospects that I would be interested in reading like Spider Man's continuing adventures underground and Luke Cage's new-New Avengers. I do see that this can take Marvel to some new directions that could be good, I really do. And perhaps I am eager to see how World War Hulk plays out and that you have an excellent point that it's not good to tell the same story over and over again.

    But what irritates some people additionally is the way that they maligned and made many heroes and individuals OOC to do this, and a story is only good if you care or relate about the characters in it. But they're being twisted and written out of normal context in the process. Yes, changing the status quo isn't too bad if the characters we've grown to love are trampled and rewritten to be contrary to how we've always known them. There is a huge difference between changing the status quo and just plain "twisting one's childhood" (the comics were written for fans; if you anger or disgust those fans, then you're going to have a smaller audience).

    It's sort of like rewriting character history so that Batman to be the Boy Scout and Superman become the dark, moody anti-social figure or Superman being made into an evil tyrant and Lex Luthor stepping up to lead the JL. Or like how Dan DiDio of DC Comics treated all the members of the JLI in the end to suffer cruel twists of fate or made them horribly OOC (and many JLI fans weren't happy with that one either).

    But I don't mean to be stubborn or offend you in any way and I do agree that we should give this a chance and enjoy the new direction; complaining isn't going to change anything. And yes, I am looking forward to see how WWH plays out, but I can tell you that there are other reasons why some people don't like this new direction and not just because we're used to the same 'ol story.
     
    #374 RogueFanKC, Mar 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2007
  15. wonderfly

    wonderfly Shaking things up a bit
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    I won't disagree with you: in some instances, many of the heroes on both sides were written Out Of Character, (Millar's portrayal of Captain America in Issue #5 of Civil War comes to mind: "Let them go if they care so little about their freedom"...it still sounds like a spoiled child not getting his way, in my opinion). :sweat:

    On the other hand, there were instances of both sides being written intelligently and In Character, (look no further than the "Captain America/Iron Man: Casualties of War" one-shot).

    You're not offending me in any way, but I am perplexed by some of the hatred I see in this thread...
     
  16. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    I'm just disturbed by the overall message of the story, that's all. Maybe that's the point, and maybe as has been suggested the other shoe will drop. I really hope so, because if not from my perspective they're feeding us some pretty awful principles and have messed up a lot of their heroes for reasons Beatdigga has said.
     
  17. Conan-san

    Conan-san Active Member

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    If this stays the course, the whole "United army of supers" thing will get stale pritty damn quickly and it will all go arse direction at the speed of sound once your standard end of world threat hits.
     
  18. Kolbar

    Kolbar @Cinecrisis on Twitter

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    So anyway, I've been reading the main "Civil War" storyline since the beginning (haven't posted in this thread yet) and I haven't had time to go to my local comic shop to get the final issue yet and I have tried to avoid all of the online spoilers, etc., but now out of the blue on the morning news show I had on, they have a story on how Marvel killed off Captain America. That's great! All that effort to avoid spoilers and they have it on the national news!

    Thank you, morning news show, you ruined 7+ months of waiting for and buying "Civil War" only to have the ending shoved in your face by TV before you buy and read it yourself.
     
  19. Moto Pete

    Moto Pete We Bare-ly Pete's

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    that didn't happen
     
  20. Bruce Wayne Jr.

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