C&C - JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - "The Ascendant One" [4/15] (END OF PART 2)

Discussion in 'The Adult Swim/Toonami Forum' started by veemonjosh, Apr 15, 2017.

  1. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I can see the appeal in that since it does help to lead one arc to another. I just think it would have been more effective if the setup didn't feel so tacked on along side the epilogue. It felt like they were trying to way too much within the last few minutes of the episode and it suffered quite a bit as a result.

    Are you talking about Joseph's face when he, Lisa Lisa and Suzie Q were heading back to New York? If that was the case, I still say it didn't amount to anything. They didn't bother to focus on how it affected Joseph or how he took the news and one expression on his face doesn't change anything, especially when I just took that as a weird animation mistake.

    Joseph still treated Esidisi like an honorable warrior in death though. Kars was obviously the exception here, but Joseph still treated the other main vampires as honorable warriors. Admittedly, it did fit more with Wamu since he did honor Caesar's final wish and didn't want anyone else to interfere with his battle against Joseph, but it still kind of bothered me.
     
  2. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    What other vampires though I dont remeber him honoring straights

    Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I was focused on the main vampires with that comment though. Sure, they didn't do that with all of the vampires, but most of the main ones did. Kars was the only one who was treated like a monster from the start and until the end mainly due to his lack of honor and becoming basically a god with the mask and the stone.
     
  4. MasterofRoku

    MasterofRoku Active Member

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    That would go against the lore of what we know about the Stone Masks and Pillar men. The Pillar Men and Stone Mask vampires are two different beasts. The Pillar Men are named as such because when they're bodies are exposed to sunlight they turn to rock and go into stasis, That's why the Speedwagon foundation kept Santana under UV lights 24/7. They're also NOT undead like Stone Mask vampires, they're humanoid superbeings with abilities far beyond what we see vampires have (ex. Kars Light Mode, Esidesi's Flame Mode, and Wammu's Wind mode).

    As Papagreg mentioned it fits considering the elements during the time, and Joseph not liking the Japanese isn't really a big deal in Part 3, and goes away early on in the series.

    I know it's been a mixed bag for you, but I do hope you give Stardust Crusaders a chance when it airs since even you enjoyed quite a few episodes from Battle Tendency and Araki was just finding his groove with the series.


    Suzie has been shown to be bit of an airhead so it'd make sense if she forget the telegram.
     
    #64 MasterofRoku, Apr 16, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  5. ecnal79

    ecnal79 Doggo

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    I think I saw Jojo grab the stone before he started running away.

    I feel like the author intended for Stroheim to be a villain when he was first introduced and later changed his mind. His portrayal in his first couple episodes is totally different then how he is in the later ones.
     
  6. marklungo

    marklungo Greetings from Honneamise

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    Yeah, I remember all that. It's still disconcerting to see a hero with that attitude. Not as bad as the glorification of Von Stronheim, though.

    Apparently Jojo's over-the-top, unpredictable nature is one of the things fans enjoy about it. However, based on what I've heard on this forum, the story gets better as it goes along.

    Okay, that dialogue is so authentic that now Viz has to hire you to help localize the next few arcs. And if that doesn't work out, you should at least write a fanfic...
     
  7. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    JoJo is a series where things like these are said: "Do you believe in [gravity]?", "I have taken the first napkin!", and "My nails just shot out from my lame feet!"

    Out of context they are random and weird, with context they are weird but they do make sense.
     
  8. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    Oh, I thought that they were all vampires with super powers and the Stone Mask just increased their powers. I must have misunderstood that part of the backstory then.

    That makes sense in regards to the real world elements at the time, but it's still pretty bad that Joseph being a racist was used as comedy. Even if it does go away early in the series, it's still unsettling at best.

    I'm still not sure to be honest. I can understand that Araki was just finding his groove with the series and I can go with that justification for the first arc, but I'm not sure if that would work for the second major arc for me. I wasn't expecting perfection, but it still felt pretty weak writing wise for me, even as far as a second arc goes. I'm not sure how many chances I can give the series before I feel like I'm just wasting my time. Not to mention I'm not sure how many people praise the series for its writing when most of the focus is on the ridiculous over the top battles more than anything else when the show comes up. I did enjoy Battle Tendency more than Phantom Blood, which is what I was hoping considering that the latter was worse the more I thought about it, but it still had some major problems for me and the ending was just awful.

    I didn't notice that. I thought that maybe the stone transferred over to him when he attempted to use Hamon against Kars since Joseph seemed pretty surprised to see the stone in his palm.

    That would actually make a lot of sense, especially when I have heard fans saying that the author often makes things up as he goes along. His first couple of episodes did make it clear that he was a villain, but then he's glorified once he becomes a cyborg, if not when he first sacrifices himself to help Joseph. Maybe it could have worked if he wasn't a Nazi solider and the change was more gradual instead of all of a sudden, but as it was, the glorification of a Nazi soldier is still really awful for me.
     
  9. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Yeah Part 3 is when Araki started with Stands, and he has been using Stands ever since.

    Also the thing about Japan and their depictions of the Nazis(outside of some exceptions*) kinda stems from the fact that they were Allies during WW2. They acknowledge that the Nazis were evil, but their experiences with them were very different.

    *Granted I wouldn't count the Nazi Vampires from Hellsing as Nazis as they hold none of the views of the Nazi party and are just suicidal murderous psychopaths.
     
  10. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    That would offer some cultural explanation for this depiction of the Nazis. It's still pretty bad for me and I could see a lot of people having a more negative reaction to this than I do, but at least there's some kind of explanation behind it other than making Stroheim more traditionally cool.
     
  11. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    I mean the cultural thing is starting to go away, but this is a 2012 adaptation of something written in the 80s
     
  12. Zeonic Freak

    Zeonic Freak Make MD Geist Great Again!

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    You know, not ALL Nazi's in WWII fully agreed with the Hitler or his ideas, and they tried to assassinate him on multiple occasions. For many they didn't have a choice but to serve the Third Reich, so to say that every single person who served under Hitler fully believed his ideas isn't entirely true. That's like saying from the viewpoint of an muslim that every American GI is an evil person because they were sent overseas by their government to do the job of a politician. Yea every army has their piece of **** soldiers, but some are also decent people.

    I think in Stroheim view, Kars was the worst nemesis, and needed all the help he could get. It should be a persons actions that define them in the end, and not so much their uniform. Also take into consideration that to Japan, the Nazi's were allies, and they were probably not taught the horrendous acts by their allies, since the IJA did some ****ty stuff as well and had their own massacres in the name of the Emperor. Despite peoples differing viewpoints, when a situation turns to hell, people tend to join forces to defeat a greater good and cast aside their differences for the moment.

    All in all, Jojo's is a great show, so Lighten up will yea!
     
  13. Nobodyman

    Nobodyman Well-Known Member

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    Okay, how about when Stroheim threatened to cut that girl's tongue off. Or when he killed all those innocent people for a blood sacrifice?

    Granted, I think Araki tried to backpedal on Stroheim's awfulness, but...it still happened.
     
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  14. Kitschensyngk

    Kitschensyngk The kids are all wrong

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    BONUS GAGS I FEEL LIKE THROWING IN BECAUSE I HAD TO DVR THIS EPISODE ON THE WEST COAST FEED BECAUSE OF A STUPID THUNDERSTORM THAT KNOCKED OUT MY FRIGGIN DIRECTV AND MADE ME MISS HOW KARS WAS DEFEATED:

    "A group of creatures, like us, but not..."
    So these creatures were like humans, but they...weren't like humans?

    What if God was one of us?

    Ultimate power comes with ultimate bragging, it seems.

    I got your rock.

    The Force...it's strong with this one.

    Why did you cut his arm off?

    Ahh...nothing ON EARTH could kill him. Clever.



    How did he make it back with no legs?!

    And Kars activates his retro rockets.

    Poor Icarus. Flew too close to the sun. And his wings froze.

    How's that immortality working out for ya?

    Leave it to JoJo to crash his own funeral.

    Whoa, Suzie Q married a zombie?

    "That's why I'll never forgive the Japanese!"
    *BOOM* NANIIIIIIIIIII?!
    "Sorry, Araki-sama, I didn't mean you! I LOVE Japanese people!...Please don't kill me off!"

    That may not be the Ark of the Covenant, but something tells me one of those sailors is about to have his face melted off just the same.
     
  15. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I'm not sure how well that comparison with Muslim works here, especially when American soldiers aren't associated with genocide like Nazi soldiers are. Sure, not all Nazi soldiers followed Hitler and people were debating earlier whether or not Stroheim could have been serving under him when he sacrificed himself, but I'm not really comfortable with giving a Nazi soldier, fictional or not, the benefit of the doubt here. There's a reason why Nazis are remembered more for killing countless innocent people more than anything else. It's also pretty likely that Stroheim was following Hilter given his behavior at the beginning of the arc.

    Now the point on how a person's action should define them more than their uniform is a a valid point, but like Nobodyman pointed out, Stroheim still did terrible things when he first appeared. He treated his women servants like object, threatened to cut off one of their tongues and killed a bunch of innocent native people for his experiment. He did help them out later as an alley, but I don't think that counters or downplays what he first did. I agree that the author tried to downplay his awfulness as the arc progressed, but it still happened. If Caesar using women to fight Joseph still bothers me even after seeing them become friends and seeing how emotionally effective his death scene was, then I'm not going to let what Stroheim did slide either, regardless of how much helped out at the end.

    It's fine if you like the show. I'm clearly in the minority of people who doesn't really like the show all that much, but you don't have to belittle my opinion by telling me to lightened up. There are other people who are bothered by how Stroheim was glorified despite being a Nazi, so I don't think I was the only person who disliked his character or at least how he was presented as an ally.
     
  16. Zeonic Freak

    Zeonic Freak Make MD Geist Great Again!

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    Sometimes you gotta forgive and forget, and if Stroheim wanted to be a better person and change his ways, then i'll forgive him of those wrong doings. Of course if he wern't a cartoon character I could care to do that, but since he isn't, I don't. Its up to Araki in the end to make these changes, and i'm not gonna fret if it happens or not. It's been over 25 years since this story came out, so at this point, I don't give a rat ass.
     
    #76 Zeonic Freak, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2017
  17. Zeonic Freak

    Zeonic Freak Make MD Geist Great Again!

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    The movie Black Rain with Micheal Douglas reminds me of that anti Japanese sentiment, since Japan economic bubble was at its height and they almost looked untouchable as a financial superpower. Joseph character being that patriotic I think is pretty great for the story, I dig that kinda comedy.

    I wish all anime was written this way, or should be written this way.
     
  18. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    Except he didn't want to become a better person and change his ways. Nothing about his actions really suggest that, especially when he was still going on about how great German science is even at the end. He chose to fight alongside the heroes against the vampires because they were a bigger threat to the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he became a better person. It was more like Araki just chose to downplay how terrible he was in order to make him more traditionally cool alongside the others.

    Even if he did want to change his ways, I wouldn't really be interested in just forgiving and forgetting what he did. He murdered innocent people for his experiment and the Pillar Men were revived at least in part due to his actions. Killing so many people like that shouldn't be brushed off so easily with just the forgive and forget attitude, especially when he never showed any regret for his actions or behavior earlier in the series.. There's really no coming back from that as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't be impossible to pull it off with the good writing, but I don't think that the author had the skills or at least the desire to fully redeem Stroheim. And I don't think when this story first came out is too relevant. It does explain some of the details and the writing quality in general, but I don't think I can give it a pass or just ignore all of its flaws simply because I came out twenty five years ago.
     
  19. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Peace Loving Shinobi
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    I find it more disconcerting how this show treated multiple Nazis as good guys. Especially Von Stronheim. Didn't they even show him basically executing a whole group of prisoners after he first got introduced as well?
     
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  20. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    He did. He basically tricked them by claiming that they only needed one of them for the experiment. One boy volunteered and instead of taking him away, he decided to separate him from the other people and killed those people instead. And even before that, his first scene showed him threatening his woman servants and having one of them lick his face after she cut him while giving him a shave. It was so uncomfortable to watch and to see the show treat him basically as a good guy like after all of that is really awful. Much like with Phantom Blood, the more I think about it, the more terrible it gets, although at least I felt like this the moment Stronheim sacrificed himself and they played it like such a sad moment. I didn't realize how much I thought Phantom Blood was terrible until after it was over, or at least when it was near its conclusion.

    The whole historical/cultural context behind Japan's relationship with the Nazi helps to explain more about that decision, but it doesn't make it any less problematic. It kind of reminds me a bit of the defenses I've seen for incest being featured in anime. Sure, incest isn't as much of a taboo in Japan as it is in other countries like the U.S., but that doesn't mean that I have to be perfectly okay incest in anime. Similarly, just because Japan sided with the Nazis during WWII doesn't mean I have to be okay with presenting a rather horrible Nazi soldier into a hero. I recognize that Stroheim saved Joseph's life and the planet would have been doomed if he didn't catch him, but that doesn't mean I have to just forget/ignore that he was a murderer and that his actions did result in the Pillar Men being revived in the first place.
     
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