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C&C - JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - "Silver Chariot" [8/26]

Discussion in 'The Adult Swim/Toonami Forum' started by veemonjosh, Aug 26, 2017.

  1. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Kakyoin, did you lay this egg?

    Still not as weird as Jorge Joestar.
     
  2. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    @Light Lucario Well I kinda knew you would't like part 3 what with Jotaro being unlikable but I give you props for trying it. It was a roundabout path, arigato Light Lucario
     
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  3. Master Knight DH

    Master Knight DH Active Member

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    I was looking over this topic and HOOOLLLYYYY COWWWWW ITEXPLODED!

    I'm with Light Lucario on this general sexism mess being idiotic. How in the hell do you mess up a good guy's motivation fuel with incredible Mood Whiplash? Oh, I know: because to use Joseph's terminology, viewers have 2 brains and the lower one turns on more consistently than it should. That's why this random guy is taking pics of 2 fangirls' *LEGS*. Whatever happened to the value of the face? What is wrong with seeing the individual and any happiness to be had from them?

    I'll admit to having less than chaste interest in the opposite sex, but I'd rather females make sure they don't get blindsided in some case of stupidity. Believe me, because I would want loyalty mixed with sunny pleasantness by the mile. Though of course THAT would be harder to disrupt if an involved female is already aware of the finer details, so take that as pragmatism if you wish. In fact, you might argue that I'm white knighting for Light Lucario because of this, but her gender is news to me because I didn't think to check her profile before. The reason I'd be wanting to talk to her on something like Skype would be because I have my own story planned and it would have significant focus on knight tropes as a theme, which of course is inevitably going to involve the Chivalrous Pervert trope, and God damn the legs thing never even occurred to me as a possible idea that naturally I'd be glad to avoid like the plague. (Granted, I have something lewd enough in mind, but I'd be wanting it to accommodate Alternate Character Interpretation, so I would want to avoid being explicit about the idea at all.)

    Now I will say this: females can pull a LOT of nonsense, and it can become irksome fast. Tropes like ***** In Sheep's Clothing are named such for a reason, and it becomes worse when they happen for reasons that are shallow and consequently hypocritical. Now the Sheep In Sheep's Clothing trope does exist, but it even comes into play when anybody who seems nice would be anything but. Still, I'd rather believe the opposite sex would earn a lot off of fair treatment, especially if they can be both steadfast and vibrant enough. You'd see where I would welcome a Genki Girl's bravery, but the Genki Girl stereotype is, how fun, that she is an idiot or otherwise needlessly inept, which is where Holly treating Jotaro's insults like they're not and then falling ill simply from getting the basic ability is frustrating. I will grant that a Genki Girl's energy can get ahead of her mind, but all that means is her needing a caboose. I haven't forgotten about Marle's common sense line to her father, Athena Cykes handling the Mood Matrix AI and general psychology, Trucy Wright fixing her own assistant's mistake on-the-fly using physical labor, Mabel Pines remarking things like coming up with -8 as which number she's thinking, Star Butterfly deciding to take active effort to make amends with Marco for her actions in the very first episode, and I can be sure there's more, because oh look, they're creative, which is simply different from being more down-to-earth, but definitely not bad unto itself.

    Seriously, why suffocate the opposite sex? Calling out their own general idiocy does work, but said idiocy is generally something that the individual can rise above, and said overcoming shouldn't be gutted with indifference just because of gender.

    Going off the topic of female treatment, another thing that irks me is how it likes to scream Broken Aesop about how intelligence is a dominant factor. That is already made worse by the general characters other than the JoJo getting sidelined, but the mere fact that the JoJo is muscular at all and then saying he wins entirely by being smart? I've been through that offensive garbage, notably including from one user by the name of L9999 on Smashboards, who had an avatar of Raven from Fire Emblem 7, claiming that I would need to learn about things like spacing. As a Squishy Wizard of sorts, that *DEEPLY* offends me. I'll just post some example videos showing I'm far from stupid, with some commentary, behind a Spoiler tag for those who would simply take my word for it, to avoid clutter, breaking of any advertisement rules that aren't OTT, potentially excessive audience demand in general, etc.:


    The videos involving the real time games would be more impressive, because I have problems handling speed, and of course gaming doesn't look kindly on people who aren't fast. That latter part would be a given, but I swear to God it tends to be taken to an UGLY extreme, especially once multiplayer gets involved, and ESPECIALLY if the games are made in Asia. It doesn't help that people like to pull Unsportsmanlike Gloating out the rear and generally spread toxicity like what happened with the Advance Wars subreddit as I complained about in the pinned comment here. No, instead, they claim to be smart, but their toxicity reveals the truth: that they hide behind power that they gladly abuse and they conveniently have cult followings to work with who would be glad to be just as arbitrary.

    JJBA I would want to say at least tries to be genuine on this angle, but it's still a Broken Aesop for it to claim intelligence does more than strength does. Yeah the JoJos fight against supernatural foes who have raw power, but so does only about any other hero ever. We have heroes like Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III and Dipper Pines who do not need to be buff to manage their achievements, and it actually shows. JJBA's design ultimately screams masculinity contest, which becomes harder to look past than it should, especially when it just asks for power creep with the threats needing to be increasingly stronger to keep up, rather than involving more sophisticated design such as incomparables making use of unique strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, that's another thing: in a good action work, there should be clear weaknesses all around that don't suck. I don't mean simple character flaws like hubris that speak for themselves, or blind spots where a given ability isn't always useful. What I mean is each side being negatively affected more by a relevant aspect before any superpowers and that's why they have to think, because brute forcing efforts will generally just get walled before they can even deal any damage thanks to the weaknesses. It would make the creativity stand out better when the players have to overcome themselves in addition to their foes.

    It's insulting to be told to be smarter by people who will tell me to "git gud" because I figure out freaking Smash 4 Cloud's weaknesses that aren't the freaking recovery. (I would link the Miiverse post I made with that list, made last November, but Miiverse is closing down this November and I don't know if it will be archived or not.) Those same people would gladly ignore that I have come up with concepts in helping to make sure game balance is up to code, wanting instead to wallow in their own hackneyed superficialities. Unfortunately, that's exactly what I feel JJBA in general does, and that, in combination with the sexism, is why I would need to write this post.

    Dated or not, JJBA should at least have the courtesy to not have a bloated ego if it is going to have these problems.

    *PHEW!* (Sorry about that.)
     
    #63 Master Knight DH, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  4. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    Whats wrong with characters who are both muscular and intelligent, Im personally getting sick of brown haired string bean smart guys

    Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk
     
  5. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Ok so this Part of Jojo is pretty straightforward in how the fights go, mainly due to Araki having no idea what he actually wanted from Stands. Though in later Parts(as in the rest of the series from Part 4-8) things get a lot more strategic, and weird.

    Now about that overly masculine look. Yeah Araki was mimicking stuff like Fist of the North Star(Jonathan Joestar's design is very close to Kenshiro's design), but the show kinda loses that look midway into Part 4. By the end of Part 4 the character all look FABULOUS! Seriously look at this picture containing all the artstyle changes.

    So yeah they lose the overly muscled designs, and become FABULOUS!
     
  6. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    Dragonball Z uses the overly muscled design too, albeit to a slightly lesser degree.I see a lot in common with Dragonball Z and JoJo parts one and two when it was humans fighting. With Stands, it feels a little bit different. I'm hoping for a a more kinetic and wild stand fight than the one from this previous episode. Hope the shark punching moment from the bumpers is as cool as it looks.
     
  7. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    The author of Dragonball and Araki are apparently friends from what I have heard..
     
  8. MasterofRoku

    MasterofRoku Active Member

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    Were you meaning to reply back to me? I noticed you quoted LL's post, but the paragraph is labeled "MasterofRoku".

    I don't even dislike lean characters, but l agree there's nothing wrong with them being muscular and intelligent characters. It took me a few reads over Master Knight's paragraph because it was confusing. So you think JoJo has a broken aesop with the mains using strategy, but looking muscular. Most of the fights in this series are won not just because the characters brute force their way, but through strategy. Also, I feel the Dipper/Hiccup comparison doesn't work here.
     
  9. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Y'know, if Jotaro had been female, but acted the exact same way, would people call her sexist? Because Jotaro is a male tsundere(heavy on the tsun). Seriously though, that character archetype is awful, yet people only seem to have a problem when the tsundere is male.
     
  10. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    Oh no. Female tsunderes have quite the vocal hatedom. Verbal and/or physical abuse being funny if a women does it to a man is one double standard that many Westerners can't stand. Why else are harem anime treated with such great scorn. I mean JoJo has far more defenders than Tenchi Muyo GXP. JoJo has more going for it in the style and creativity department than harems. That doesn't mean that Jotaro haters like me are baseless in our hatred (maybe he shows a nice side, but he makes Squall from FInal Fantasy VIII look like a cuddly, friendly puppy in comparison. He's the closest I think to Jotaro's misanthropic personality, but he eventually got better better because of the power of love or something).
     
  11. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I'm not huge on the tsundere archetype regardless of the character's gender and I'm also pretty sure it's not uncommon for people to dislike female tsundere characters. Verbal/physical abuse being dismissed as comical if it's done by a female character can be problematic to say the least and there are plenty of people who dislike the trope in general too. If Jotaro was a female character and treating every male character like dirt as he does with female characters and referring to them by some awful term as he does with women, I'd still call that sexist. At the very least, she'd still come off as an unlikable jerk with that behavior, so it's not like she'd get a free pass for this kind of behavior. Granted, a guy calling women the b-word so bluntly does send up more red flags for me as a woman, especially when they continue to drool over him in spite of that, thus making the gag even more annoying to me, but calling men by some awful terms wouldn't make Jotaro more endearing either. It would still not give a good first impression of the character regardless of their gender.

    For the record, it isn't just Jotaro that makes me think that the show is sexist. It's the fact that women are seemingly just motivation fuel for the male characters, even going as far as using rape as backstory motivation, and parts of running gags, which does include Jotaro yelling at women only for them to continue to like him for some reason. When your main cast is full of only male characters who get to have battles, storylines and potential character development, while female characters are treated like that, people can easily get some sexist implications from it, regardless of the author's intents. The first two parts didn't really have a lot of female characters either, but aside from Lisa Lisa becoming a damsel in distress near the end of Battle Tendency for Joseph to save, I don't think that they drew attention to that issue, or at least not nearly as much as Stardust Crusaders does with this episode and its setup.
     
  12. Master Knight DH

    Master Knight DH Active Member

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    What is wrong is that weaknesses are supposed to be around to shake things up and make things more interesting. Good guys become more interesting when they have reasons to legitimately worry about the grunts among the bad guys. Even a Showy Invincible Hero like Samurai Jack can get needlessly angry and while having the misfortune of being a high priority target because either his death or his sword's destruction is an Instant Win Condition for Aku, and being in a Sicksack World at that.

    Watch the first match in this again. Tell me how that would be any more interesting if I was using a Melee Tornado character like Shulk, or a busted character like Corrin, rather than freaking Pac-Man, who is supposed to be an evasion character and ends up with kill move problems as a result, with just melee attacks? I was up against Bayonetta, who is meant to be frustrating to fight against, to begin with, and that match was literally my first experience against her, so odds were extremely stacked against me. Funny how this same match also has Witch Time, a particular aspect of Bayonetta that everybody complains about--rightfully so, actually--is first used against me probably trying to read a Back Air and I just get the first KO off of Pac-Man's Forward Smash as a direct result literally thinking at the time that Bayonetta had just air dodged. With a character like Corrin, Witch Time would be baited without needing to pull risk. Pac-Man needs things like his Back Air to issue pressure, and from that you can see more from what is already comparable to Phoenix Wright breaking Black Psyche Locks in his first year as a DA.

    I would rather have more of that, and less of the sort of cop-outs involved here.
    (If you don't get it, paid DLC characters winning by using cutscene power, encouraging kids to use pay2win instead of following more honest values.)

    Now I will say, having The Big Guy be a Genius Bruiser CAN work, but I'll just point to how whoisthisgit mentioned before about how Mighty Glaciers have their slowness cause their power to be more satisfying. If you want to involve plenty of raw power in both body AND mind, believe me when I say I actually would want to do that for my own game, especially when Fragile Speedsters are notoriously abusive in various other games, and I realize it should be handled with creative weaknesses to make sure frontlining has enough depth within being highly encouraged. I looked at the Stands' stats and I'm seeing the hero's has an A in everything except one area that is still at a middling C. Not a good sign.

    Now I can get that JJBA is a product of its time, and it's simply the sexism aspect that needs to be called out, not the ridiculously superpowered hero thing. All the same, I'm still pointing to something that future writers absolutely should keep in mind, because people do complain about Mary Sues for a reason.

    Dragon Ball Z is more overt about it from the get-go. It's following its own standards without problem. I'm leaving it be for that.

    @Volthoom @Light Lucario Personally, female tsunderes bother me to begin with, but that's because I don't like abrasiveness from females. I won't blame you if you call me sexist, of course, but I'm just saying how I feel, not something to make too big a deal out of.

    It's not like Jotaro in his misogyny earns himself any brownie points anyway. For God's sake, there's implication that Holly is simply clumsy, but certainly not pushy, which makes Jotaro's treatment of her worse, male tsundere or not. And the fangirls, don't get me started on them, because I'd just be repeating what's been said about them on this thread and the other JJBA threads for the umpteenth time.

    But oh right, I forget: we're talking about Japan, which at best is all too often Innocently Insensitive about the way it treats the opposite sex. It actually gets to the point of seeping its way into Ace Attorney, the very first game where Phoenix has me thinking about a term describing his behavior toward Maya in the final case, one that sort of involves his nickname but not using alliteration. He certainly doesn't help Maya to not feel useless for too long, even though Maya proved herself useful in no fewer than FIVE ways in the case, even involving CMOAs (that unfortunately the anime freaking neutered). Nick is never called for it, of course, so that's fun. Even in Spirit of Justice, Nick doesn't think much of potential Eureka Moments, which becomes more glaring from a series where the player is supposed to use the concept of turnabout while the antagonists think in absolutes. This from what is supposed to be the Most Triumphant Example of Savvy Guy Energetic Girl. I can tell you that when I did the YKTTW on that, I hadn't even played AA at all at that point, and merely took people's word on Nick and Maya being an example. Even then, 5 years before whoisthisgit made the Creepy Bad Endings episode about a well known case in Ace Attorney (that's how I got into the series), I had recognized that the Genki Girl is not to be underestimated in the intelligence department, because even if she's still going to be outpaced in practicality, it's a guarantee she brings something to the table regardless. Those who have watched Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, remember this? That's the handiwork of an artist in the making, one who just needs guidance around roadblocks like the ones that show up in context to make sure the creativity is streamlined instead of hitting either extreme.

    Now let me clarify that Ace Attorney actually isn't so hypocritical in its general message. In fact, Nick does ultimately prove to Maya how she wasn't so useless, and besides, there are still characters like the other Feys, Adrian Andrews, and Dahlia Hawthorne who don't end up so suffocated by gender. I'm just annoyed by how the treatment of Maya, as well as Athena, does have moments of being half-efforted. Of course, with a series that has the general message to think outside the box, it's rather off for an otherwise competently designed protagonist or even the setting to treat somebody who is supposed to showcase the message itself ends up treated with less respect than they ultimately deserve given those particularly glaring points. I expect there's even more examples of the fish not noticing the water that they swim in.

    I can grant that America would teach the opposite sex to be more avoidant, which honestly, I may understand why on count of the given complications, but that doesn't make me less annoyed, especially when they can just as easily feel like excuses for creative laziness, how ironic. All the same, Japan's encouraging extroversion from females should not come at a needless cost of both competency from them and respect toward them, because that's the opposite extreme where their opinion doesn't matter, which ultimately robs them of any genuine happiness. I can tell you from experience that Genki Girls tend to be Stepford Smilers who are just as scared as anybody else, no matter how well they try to hide it. I think it's ultimately bad form to encourage imbalance by punishing the likes of them for being brave or creative or, God forbid, warm-hearted.

    (Yeah, another long post.)
     
    #72 Master Knight DH, Sep 2, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  13. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Fun fact, Shoko Nakagawa(lady who sang the Gurren Lagann opening song) one interviewed Araki, she came dressed as Jotaro, and in general acted like a creepy fan girl. Also there are images of her on Twitter where she is licking the TV screen that is playing JoJo(specifically Jotaro's face).

    BTW: if anyone has an issue with gore, yeah that may be one of the reasons JoJo is in a seinin magazine now, particularly once Stands with healing abilities show up. Modern shounen is a lot tamer in the violence department(Fist of the North Star showed people's heads exploding in detail and did not hide it).

    EDIT: holy cow, this site has some loading issues.
     
  14. J'onn J'onzz

    J'onn J'onzz Best Male Member '08

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    I'm having issues loading this page too. Maybe it has to do with the twenty random gaming YouTube videos that have nothing to do with JoJo's BIzarre Adventure.
     
  15. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    I don't think its fair to call Jotaro a sexist, the dude equally treats everyone like crap, he is more of a misanthrope. Also if you're like me and read through 99 percent of Jojo I find it kinda interesting how Araki's writing evolved through out the years you go from female characters getting written into the sidelines but in Part 6 you have a female protagonist.
     
  16. J'onn J'onzz

    J'onn J'onzz Best Male Member '08

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    What point did Jojo move to a seinen magazine? That likely changed things for how Araki treats women in his works.
     
  17. PapaGreg

    PapaGreg Peppermint tea for me

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    I think it was during Part 7 which was after Joylene
     
  18. Master Knight DH

    Master Knight DH Active Member

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    Fixed the video linking, hopefully. And Toonzone, why the blazes do you auto-convert YT video links?

    Still keeping my points about weaknesses. Especially when first impressions are a thing.
     
  19. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Part 7. Jolyne was in part 6. Well, a couple issues of Part 7 were published in Shounen Jump before moving to Ultra Jump(and becoming a monthly series rather than a weekly series).
     
  20. Scrappy-Fan92

    Scrappy-Fan92 Well-Known Member

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    Well, this is a lot to unpack.

    Polnareff is far less of a creeper though.
    Seven Deadly Sins is so close to being shonen nirvana, but Meliodas' lewder tendencies keep holding it back.
    Shonen Jump sounded like a terrible place to work under in the 80's. Several of the dilemmas in JoJo seemed to be out of Araki's hands, honestly.
    I'm actually somewhat surprised you enjoyed Gurren Lagann so much given Yoko's design and the Gainaxisms that come with the territory.

    As for the episode itself, I think Joseph (despite being a bigot) was the star here. His squirming while Jotaro removed the brain bud from Polnareff and his comments about "two brains" were gold.
     

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