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C&C - JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - "Silver Chariot" [8/26]

Discussion in 'The Adult Swim/Toonami Forum' started by veemonjosh, Aug 26, 2017.

  1. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I recognize that this is written from a different time, but that doesn't give the show a free pass for being sexist. And I do think that this show is sexist. Whether or not that's intended I can't say since I don't know much about the author, but I think it would be really easy to read sexism with this part in particularly, especially with this episode. And again, being written from the late 80s and early 90s doesn't really justify it. That kind of writing wouldn't be good regardless of the time period.

    Anyway, I thought that this episode was pretty bad, but mainly for the second half. The fight itself was decent. It might have been a bit too flashy and they had to do that traditional think the opponent was defeated only to see that he survived bit, but there was some creativity there. Since Polnareff's stand is faster without the armor, I kind of why it would come with the armor, but they wanted to keep the knight design for it. Explaining his stands powers was typical in terms of padding out the episode, but it also tied into making him look honorable and respectful towards his opponents. Avdol's way to defeat him was pretty neat and I liked that he did spare Polnareff once he saw that he refused to commit suicide. I should have expected that he was controlled by Dio in retrospect.

    Polnareff's question for Joseph was certainly bizarre, but getting a reference to Battle Tendency was kind of neat. My problems with the episode started right with his motivation. So the man with two right hands raped and murdered his sister? He said that the man stole her innocence and then killed her, which is one way of saying that she was raped. If that is the case, then they're using a woman being raped as motion for the male character's story, which is awful. This certainly isn't an uncommon trope, even in this day and age, but it's still really terrible and made me feel extremely uncomfortable. His desire to join up with them made sense given that the man would be involved with Dio in some regards, but it still bothered me. Even if they just said that his sister was murdered, it would still be pretty bad since this would be the second time a woman was pushed into a refrigerator to motivate a male character in this one part. The rape just adds an extra layer of disturbance to me.

    And then we got that awful tone shift with random girls gushing over Jotaro again. I still have no idea why I'm supposed to like him, let alone understand why girls throw themselves at him. He's a massive jerk who seemingly finds everyone around him annoying. He does help people out, so he's not completely heartless, but that's not enough to balance out how he yells and insult women practically all the time. People have said that he gets better, but I'd prefer if I could at least tolerate lead characters right off the bat. Polnareff turning out to be a pervert made it even worse. He was more polite to the girls there than Jotaro, but taking pictures of their thighs was still incredibly creepy. Admittedly, I didn't hear when he said that he'd take pictures of their legs the first time I watched the scene, but he still gave off some massive creepy vibes even afterwards. Taking pictures of two young girls' legs that you just met and being so happy about it just seemed really unsettling.

    I understand that they probably didn't want to end the episode on the downer note with Polnareff's story, but that tone shift was hard and jarring. They went from talking about Polnareff wanting to avenge his dead sister, then had Jotaro yell at two random girls for gushing over him and then finished it off with Polnareff gushing over the girls himself. It's was a weird collection of how the series looks and treats women all within a few minutes, which would probably explained why I hated it so much. It instantly made me think "Forget you too, show", which is oddly enough what happened with the last Tokyo Ghoul episode I watched. To be fair, that episode and series is far worse than this one in my opinion, but the writing and treatment of female characters here did come close to that same kind of offensive mark that Tokyo Ghoul's compassion and kindness is for the weak message did.

    I think I'm done with this series. I gave it five episodes and that was five episodes too many. The only character who I can even remotely like is Joseph since he has a fun personality, although Advol is okay. Jotaro is too annoying to like and I can already tell that I'm going to have the same kind of problems with the writing like I did with the first two parts. I'll probably have even more problems with this part if this episode is any indication. Not to mention I don't want people getting on my case over disliking the series like what happened with the end of Battle Tendency. I've given the show far too many tries and it's clear that it's not my cup of tea. I'm glad that fans can enjoy it after it was taken off the lineup before, but it's just not for me. I came into the series expecting some over the top action fun, but what I see instead is a poorly written series with few likable/interesting characters, forced in drama, annoying narration, even that applies more for the first two parts than this one, and it doesn't have enough substance, charm or heart to make up for these flaws. These parts really haven't aged well either. Maybe it does get better from this point forward and maybe I could have liked it, but I don't want to wait through more episodes to see if that's going to happen. I've already gave it too many tries and I'm tired of waiting for the supposed good part to start.
     
  2. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    I gotta ask, did you miss the fact that this series isn't to be taken seriously? Do you take those old 80s action movies seriously(the stuff with Stallone, Schwarzenegger, ETC)? No, you understand that they are dumb popcorn flicks that you need to turn your brain off for. The moment you start taking the show seriously is the moment you have issues.

    EDIT: also due to me forgetting, this series(well the early Parts(1-3) anyway) were a parody and love letter to those 80s action movies, and Fist of the North Star(which judging by your comment, you'd dislike).
     
    #42 Volthoom, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  3. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    Woah! Woah! Even if one goes with "It's a comedy," this show's treatment of women is still a serious problem. I'm pretty sure that Polnereff sister's rape was not supposed to be funny. LightLucario has every right to not like the show. I have a sort of sadomasochistic, "This is fun but this pisses me off" relationship with it, to be honest. JoJo worshipers, you don't have to proselytize. I know that I'm a member of the church of HunterXHunter, but that's just me. I don't mind members of the church of JoJo and am happy that JoJo makes you happy.
     
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  4. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Given that Lucario hates pervert characters, yeah he is gonna get annoyed with My Hero Academia. Stupid Mineta.

    EDIT: For some reason Japan likes pervert characters, which is why they always show up.

    Fair enough. Fun fact: Togashi is a JoJo fan.
     
  5. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    Seven Deadly Sins arguably has it worse when it comes to pervert characters (a lot of you know what I'm talking about. The "molestation is funny" aspect of the show does not fly). Uncomfortable gender tropes seem to be anime-wide problem.
     
  6. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Ah yes, the Seven Mortal Sins anime(there is already a separate anime named Seven Deadly Sins). Japan likes them, The World(sorry, I had to) outside Japan does not, and Japan doesn't care about the opinions of people outside of Japan. So unfortunately those tropes aren't going to change because people in the west don't like those things. So with that knowledge in mind, I basically stopped caring.
     
  7. Hypeathon

    Hypeathon Well-Known Member

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    This may be a bad time to mention this, but the series doesn't supposedly get a female JoJo protagonist until part 6. It hasn't even been announced whether part 5 will get an anime adaptation in Japan yet.
     
  8. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I have a lot of problems with this kind of mindset, as well as the condescending tone I'm getting here. First off, I've never really understood the whole "it's a parody" excuse. Maybe I could see that with the beginning of the series, especially with how the characters were designed despite being twelve years old, but even then, it felt like they were playing things fairly straight. It was over the top dramatic shouting everywhere, but it felt like we were supposed to take things seriously, At least part of that could be me taking this joke at face value. It is not uncommon for me to take a joke seriously, but this doesn't feel like a joke. A girl being raped and murdered all to motivate her brother's role in the story is not funny nor should it be.

    Part of the issue could be that I don't have that much experience with those old 80s action movies. I've heard of them and seen bits of them here and there, but I'm not much of an action movie buff. I don't know if I'd take those at face value either, but a movie can run on the cool factor a lot easier than a TV show can. It's easy to just enjoy the visual and heavy action for ninety minutes, but a TV show has a longer run time and so it needs more substance than just being cool and flashy. That's kind of what I felt like when watching Black Lagoon too. Running with the rule of cool can only get you so far with a TV show. It can bring people in, but some people need a bit more substance to be hooked into it. Granted, there's more to this show than there was with Black Lagoon, but still not enough to make me think it's anything more than all flash with little to no substance.

    I also really hate this whole "you need to not think while watching the show" logic too. It's even worse because this is in response to a pretty legitimate problem. The treatment of female characters in this series is a huge issue and this episode in particular was just awful in that regard. This isn't me just being nit picky. They actually had a female character raped and murdered all for a male character's motivation. It would be one thing if you disagreed with me, but with this logic, you're trying to disregard everything I said because I was thinking while watching this show. Not only is that condescending, but it's a really terrible way to defend any show. If your show is only appealing to people who turn their brain off and don't want to think about anything they're seeing, even if it's something as terrible as using rape as a plot device to motivate a male character, then you're not doing the show any favors. All you're doing is making me appreciate that I'm not going to waste my time even further to attempt to like this show. If the only way that I can like a show is to not think about anything that is happening, then the chances are good that it isn't a good show. I can enjoy ridiculous shows while still taking them serious. Gurren Laggan is a prime example of that. People told me that I needed to turn my brain off to enjoy it, but I didn't and never quite understood that logic for that show either. If the show falls apart the moment I start thinking about it, then that's not a good sign for the show itself and insulting me for thinking only further reinforces my decision to avoid this show and its fans like the plague.

    This is also what I was kind of referring to when I mentioned people getting on my case about my thoughts on the series. It's one thing to disagree with me. I don't mind that, but it's the rudeness that bothers me here. This isn't the worst way someone has responded to my feelings on the show, but it still annoys me that a big legitimate problem I have was basically responded by telling me that it's my fault for thinking and taking this show seriously. Give me a break.

    I'm a woman and I know that pervert characters are a common trope. I've heard of everyone hating Mineta, so if he is bad like I've heard, then hopefully no one will get on my case for complaining about him whenever I watch that series. In this case, it wasn't just the pervert character trope that bothered me here. It was that along with how the tone shift was painfully bad. They went from talking about his sister being raped and murdered to then gushing over girls in the matter of minutes. It would still be kind of creepy to take pictures of random girls' legs regardless, but the contrasting tones made it immensely worse.

    I have heard of the female Jojo protagonist before, but I don't know if that would necessarily mean that the series is less sexist. It could easily be due to the different times in which those parts were written and the author's experience, but I'm not going to find out for myself.
     
  9. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    I was not aware of your gender. The thing is, this part is ridiculously popular in Japan, if a JoJo or a JoJo Part is gonna get featured in anything, it will most likely be Stardust Crusaders and Jotaro. Despite the fact that Jotaro was mainly just a prototype for far better JoJos who have similar personalities(Giorno, Jolyne(who is a hardcore lady), and Johnny).

    Part 3 gets a lot colder of a reception in the West, unfortunately it's popularity in Japan gave it two seasons while the far better Diamond Is Unbreakable(Josuke is likable immediately, the female characters are far better written,and things are more relaxed) got one. We are all waiting for the announcement of a Vento Aureo adaptation. So yeah, Part 3 was part of the era of JoJo where Araki still had no idea what he wanted, and Jotaro was just there so that he could experiment.

    I could see how TTGL being all about rejecting logic and reason could be off putting since people are trained to use logic and reason all their lives.

    But yeah Tone shifts in JoJo do happen(about as often as the color shifts) it can go from funny to serious to disturbing to "what?" inducing in short order.

    As it stands, Araki has gotten so much better at writing women. Compared to now(as in JoJolion, not Stardust) and in his earlier works(one of which he is embarrassed by its existance*)

    *Gorgeous Irene, about a shapeshifting assassin lady. Araki wrote it before he got married, and wasn't as mature then.
     
  10. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    I have heard contradictory things about the popularity of Stardust Crusaders in the Western fandom. Some say it's the best. Some the worst. I wonder if there's a Doctor Who-esque split in opinions on best JoJo (as there is best Doctor). Supposedly, Stardust Crusaders is way better than Phantom Blood and Battle Tendancy, but I have the opposite opinion. Were there any others who prefered the early JoJo's? (I actually found Phantom Blood to be a delightfully cheesy fun Hammer Horror meets macho shonen series. Jonathan might be a little bland, but I don't get the "It's the worst thing ever" cries when there have been far worse anime. I can understand it not being everyone's cup of tea, but it's not Diabolik Lover's bad. That's the nadir of sexist anime). The shift from being a martial arts series to a gory mons series was also jarring. Maybe Stardust Crusaders can warm a little, but it's kind of obvious that a pretty big portion of the anime community finds Jotaro an obstacle to liking the show.
     
  11. EntropicReaver

    EntropicReaver Queen of Heck

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    JoJo's isnt a parody. In the very beginning it paid homage to manga like Fist of the North Star, but it is very much its own thing. Any sexism you're seeing is not intentional and the author doesn't hate women. Some of it is an unfortunate byproduct of the times and another part is due to inaccuracies in translation. Holly needing to be saved isn't sexism, she is just a pacifist and by her gentle nature has no 'fighting spirit.' She is not just 'a woman', but Jotaro's mother and Joseph's child. The only reason she develops a stand is because of DIO's awakening. Similarly, there is a male character -beginning of part 4 spoilers- who by all rights shouldn't have a stand but due to strange circumstances, gains and begins to change alongside the stand -end of part 4 spoilers-.

    Jotaro isn't calling anybody a *****, that's just what the translators decided upon for the English releases. He's also trying really hard to be a teenage edgelord with his dad no around and has already shown to have problems with communicating his feelings, a trait that gets expanded upon much more and has ramifications in the series.

    While rape is abhorrent, Polnareff's baby sister was murdered and was Polnareff's only remaining family. The seeking revenge for the murder/rape of a family member may be overused but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about its usage. Araki never meant to insinuate that a woman's only purpose is to be but a motivator for a man to take up arms and drive the story forward.

    Kakyoin was originally meant to be a girl but Araki's editors insisted that it be changed because 'it would be strange for a girl to be in an all male cast'. Again, an unfortunate byproduct of the times.

    Fortunately as he gained more clout during his run at Weekly Shonen Jump (targeted at younger boys) he was able to push and include his stronger, more prominent female characters. Characters like Mariah (Part 3), Yukako (Part 4, this character was written as a reaction to what Araki perceived to be too many cutesy passive females, possibly the very first Yandere), and the almost entirely female cast of Part 6, with many others in between.
     
    #51 EntropicReaver, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  12. EntropicReaver

    EntropicReaver Queen of Heck

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    I would have to agree with the doctor who comparison. JoJo fans are a contentious bunch and will almost never agree on which parts and characters are the best with the exception of part 7 being one of the best manga of all time. There are TONS of people who prefer Jotaro cough Japan cough because and I quote, "he is badass, not like Jonathan who was so weak and didn't even do anything."

    I didn't care too much for stands at first, having preferred Hamon. I was really glad that the second half of part 3 started ramping up on the strangeness of stand powers, instead of just being abilities like 'being strong' or 'can control fire'. Part 4 sold me completely, the increasing complexity and interesting usage of the stands in that part assuaged my fears for the series.

    My ranking of JoJo parts used to be something like 2>1>3 but after subsequent rewatches and rereads it's more like 7=6>4>1=3>2>5. The second half of part 3 is just so good and a nice cap to the 'original trilogy'
     
    #52 EntropicReaver, Aug 28, 2017
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  13. PicardMan

    PicardMan Member

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    I think the changing of times have definitely hurt JoJo in comparison to more modern anime. So the idea of having combat ready females was controversial in early Shonen Jump? I guess in the era of Erza, Nico Robin, Nel, Biscuit and many other tough ladies, it's jarring when this character type isn't present (of course, Lisa Lisa from Part II was an example, but she could have had more time in the limelight. As for the rape as backstory trope, JoJo wasn't the only one to indulge in this (remember Hellsing Ultimate). Okay, there's a lot of frustrating tropes (distressed damsel, rape as backstory) in JoJo, but lots of anime also have these sins. What happened with Holly arguably is similar to the Orihime in distress arc from Bleach. JoJo in Bleach are just both in my "fun but frustrating" catagory, (although Bleach angered me far more).

    I am happy to know that Stands become a little more creative than "this is a fire type stand." "this is a speed type stand" This battle seemed to be a poor-man's Pokemon battle, but I'm expecting a more imaginative set of fights. The change from Hamon to Stands is going to have some getting used to.
     
  14. EntropicReaver

    EntropicReaver Queen of Heck

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    One of the most interesting fights in part 3 isnt even really a "fight."

    My favorite parts of the more straightforward stands (star platinum, silver chariot) are those sequences when you see them as an extension of the body and the user working with the stand instead of simply watching them punch away at people. That was my biggest problem with stands in the beginning.
    the more seinen Part 6 and 7/8 are my favorite for this reason. Araki wrote several stands of part 6 and almost everyone in part 7 more like glorified superpower tools so that you could attribute the actions to the characters, instead of to the robot in a gimp suit standing behind them. Granted, they still had their humanoid forms and it's still good fun when they occasionally bring the whole stand out to pummel a particularly annoying or abhorrent enemy.

    "So the idea of having combat ready females was controversial in early Shonen Jump"

    Oof, Araki was actually forced by his editors to completely change a character's gender in part 6 after their first appearance to avoid what would have been a lesbian relationship.
     
    #54 EntropicReaver, Aug 28, 2017
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  15. QWER5

    QWER5 Member

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    Or alternatively you can admit that both shows are fun and both have their problems. Well, that's my opinion of Jojo's so far, but there's a lot more to it. I'm current with the Hunter X Hunter manga and already know definitively it never becomes amazing (as far as I'm concerned, anyway).

    But as far as sexism goes, yeah, a lot of it is parody that's supposed to be intentionally absurd and mocked, but there are still things that I see why people would find them problematic. I might not necessarily agree on all of them, but I see it.
     
    #55 QWER5, Aug 28, 2017
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  16. Hypeathon

    Hypeathon Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'm not sure how comfortable everyone is here about getting into socio-political territory here, but I do feel compelled to reply since it's been brought up for the last several posts.

    I think fans who either defend the show the way I highlighted the above in bold or in any similar way are missing the point Regarding intention and action. In the context of this sort of thing, It doesn't matter if the author didn't intend to have most female characters be presented these various ways. Authorial intent can only hold so much water when the reality is that's how the female characters are actually treated. When we get into this idea of the author didn't mean this or the author didn't always know what he/she was doing (I know Hirohiko Araki is male but I used both pronouns to refer to any author in media/entertainment), it can come off to those who don't tolerate this sort of thing as being apologetic.

    In the context of how JoJo is a symptom of being part of a magazine that's filled with titles that have female characters being mistreated or sidelined in various ways, this can be interpreted in one of two ways: On the one hand, we can look at this as a mere observation, a study. We can spend time observing the ways all the different manga author's present female characters, positively and negatively depending on the role, the genre of the title, the period of time, etc. etc. Toshihiro Togashi and Eiichiro Oda likes to present elder women in Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter & One Piece with a strong sense of credibility. Genkai, Biscuit, Dr. Kureha, Kokoro, & Tsuru are reputable and/or capable despite their age. That's a positive. But Togashi tends to have much fewer female characters than male characters and they are either sidelined or killed off. And Oda despite having two female characters as part of the Straw Hat Pirates, once we got past their arcs, they became somewhat capable but still play somewhat smaller roles compared to the male crew members in later arcs, and are constantly seen in scantily clad outfits like most "grown" female characters regardless of whether they're technically of age or whether the context of the outfit makes that much sense. Those are negatives.

    I could go on, but making observations of those things is one way to look at the, "symptom-within-a-larger-problem" matter. The other way to look at is to assume that just because it was all in the past, we can look at how things are now as if they're better to the degree that criticism is no longer a necessity. The reality is that when something like Weekly Shonen Jump is now payed mind to by more people than ever, it's easier to observe and compare how other manga in that magazine present female characters to look at and see exactly how much better off the magazine has been. In some case, it seems it has come a long way, but in others, not so much. With say My Hero Academia, we do see certain female students get the same spotlight as other characters and the mother characters have a recurring and believable, non-gender reason for why they get increasingly sidelined in the story. However, the professional heroines are more about displaying sex appeal and fame more than sense of justice.
     
  17. QWER5

    QWER5 Member

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    Something doesn't have to be a full on parody to have parody-like aspects.

    In the Japanese he might not be literally saying *****, but he's clearly supposed to be disrespecting them the same way. Translation 101 is getting the feeling down, even if you have to change up the words being used literally.

    The thing about his editors forcing him to treat some women the way he does and getting better about it later, are things I've heard before, but even if that's true, it doesn't make it less problematic now.
     
  18. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    I understand that this part is really popular in Japan, but popularity isn't necessarily an indication of how good a show or form of media is. I was told that he started to figure out what he wanted to do with this part, but maybe that was just referring to stands and how they become the main means of combat from this point forward. The fact that Araki was still figuring out what he wanted to do and wrote basically it as he went along really explains so much.

    I can understand that. As much as I love Gurren Laggan, I can see why it might not appeal to people in the same way because of how basically anything goes. I basically took their whole "kick logic away and do the impossible" as the series' own internal sense of logic if that makes any sense.

    I haven't seen a tone shift this bad in a long time and I don't think that the series handles it particularly well based on that scene.

    It's nice that he apparently gets better. I could believe that after writing the series for so long and gaining more experience.

    I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that Part 3 was the worst, but I don't look up Jojo discussions outside of here. Everyone has been saying that Stardust Crusaders is where the series starts getting good or finding its groove at least. Personally, I find Phantom Blood to have too many show don't tell moments and rushed pacing to be really enjoyable. Battle Tendency had the same kind of problems, but Joseph was more of an entertaining leads and there was few more memorable fights/moments compared to Phantom Blood. I grew to dislike both more after they ended, but I wouldn't say that neither of them were the worst. Just not particularly good, although I'd give Battle Tendency an edge out of all three parts.

    That's one reason why I had mixed feelings on Holly needing to be saved. There in-universe reason behind it made sense when she isn't a fighter and would be too gentle to handle something like a stand. It still seems questionable at best to me because they didn't really need the ticking clock to add more tension with Dio. That being said, it still feels like she's a damsel in distress more than just being Joseph's daughter and Jotaro's mother in danger.

    Even without the translator's decision in mind, he's still treating women like dirt. He yells at them, call them annoying and generally is unpleasant with them and yet they still love him. The whole communication issue could be interesting, but I think that they didn't do a good job with giving him any kind of likability beforehand. It doesn't give a good first impression of his character and by the time he does get development, it could be too little, too late for some people.

    Now I disagree with this point. Using rape as a motivation fuel for revenge does feel pretty wrong to me. It's taking a horrible act and using that mainly as the motivation for another, often male, character. I suppose that it can be done well, but it usually sends some red flags up for me. It's not a good sign of a good story or good writing usually.

    The problem isn't just one of these three points about women, although the rape motivation is easily the worst of the three. It's the fact that this is how seemingly all of the female characters in this part are treated and there aren't any prominent female characters up to this point who have their own active role in the story. Even Lisa Lisa, the only female Hamon user, was basically reduced into a damsel in distress for Joseph to save near the end of Battle Tendency. It may not have been the author's intent to present women that way, but when all of the female characters in this part are used as objects for motivation fuel or gags, it can be easily read as sexist. Not to mention author intent doesn't matter that much when the fiction can be interpreted different ways by different people.

    It could be a sign of the times too, but that doesn't give the sexist undertones a free pass or make them less bad/problematic. This would be terrible regardless if it was written in the 80s or today. Plus, it's not like Shonen series today don't have this kind of problem at all. You can see improvement when it comes to more female characters playing active roles in these kind of series, but they can often still be few in numbers compared to the male dominate cast, be treated primarily for fanservice or be used for rescues. It's still progress from how it was when Jojo first started, but the issue of how female characters are handled is definitely not something that was exclusive to this series or this time in history.
     
  19. Volthoom

    Volthoom Member

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    Unfortunately the Stand fights in the early bits of Stardust Crusaders, weren't as interesting as the fights in later Stardust and the rest of the series. Think of it this way: a bunch of people are at a poker table playing a game, one person has actual poker cards, one guy has Pokemon cards, other has Chaotic cards, and the last has Uno cards. Also every player is playing by the rules of the games the cards come from.

    Also I don't recall if Toonami cut the Stand stats or not. So here is what they are.
    Destructive Poetential/Strength(how dangerous they are)

    Speed(I don't need to explain that, it should be obvious)

    Range(how far a Stand can go from the user)

    Precision(how accurate the Stand is)

    Durability/Endurance(there is a lot of confusion about this one, basically it is how long a Stand can do it's ability)

    Developmental Potential(how much the Stand has to grow)

    Each Stat has a letter next to going from E(terrible) to A(the best), there is no S rank. If a Stand has E rank in Developmental Potential, that means that the user has had it for a while. A Stand's Developmental Potential goes down the longer the user has had it.
     
  20. TnAdct1

    TnAdct1 Ravioli, Ravioli

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2002
    Messages:
    15,115
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    75
    Suddenly, a few things make a lot more sense (especially when it comes to a certain JoJo doujin by CLAMP).
     

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