Ben 10 continuity (what counts and what doesn't?)

Discussion in 'The Cartoon Network/Boomerang Cartoon Forum' started by Master Toon, May 8, 2010.

  1. Master Toon

    Master Toon Active Member

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    It seems to me that Alien Force and Ultimate Alien have a separate continuity from the original series unless it's convenient for the writers. But that causes trouble when you're trying to determine things. I don't think it's fair that the original series counts sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. That right there does not make any sense to me. Can someone please give me a straight answer? Does the original series count or does it not? It's a simple yes or no question.
     
  2. King_of_doom

    King_of_doom kiva fan

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    It got a mix of both, they do try adding continuity with the original series but at the same time not make it "unrealistic" in AF and UA. Yes, they do count the original series but tweaking it a bit to fit with the second and third series.
     
  3. Mad Mod 49

    Mad Mod 49 Active Member

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    It depends really. Some continuity changes don't matter much, some might be an improvement, and others are just plain frusturating.

    EXAMPLES:

    Don't matter much: Gwen's powers being alien in nature. Doesn't bother me, and it's pretty interesting really.

    Improvement: The Null Void getting a history and purpose beyond just being a prison that the Plumbers use.

    Frusturating: Pretty much everything involving Kevin. I like the guy, but he just ain't the Kevin from the original show, and at this point the writers have missed their chance to ever change that. If they try now, it'll feel jarring and forced (even his attempts at being a serious antihero and threatening to kill villains in the recent episode was laughable, IMO.)

    Also, the creators of the original show (who don't work on AF or UA by the way) confirmed that the episodes "Gwen 10", "Goodbye and Good Riddance", "Ben 10,000", and "Ken 10" are out of continuity, even by their standards.
     
  4. Monte

    Monte Active Member

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    Frankly, i think continuity only counts when they want it too... they didn't plan ahead, or they changed their plans half-way and thus have to use retcon in order to make things fit. Episodes like the ones that take place in the future for instance would greatly limit what the writers could do as they have to avoid contradicting it... if they kept the future episodes they'd have to show the gradual transition of earth developing into that future world seeing as it only has 5 years left to make that transition... though granted, i never like time travel storylines; i can never ignore the paradoxes

    Gwen's powers and Kevin just seemed to be the most glaring to me... the original shows writers liked the idea of magic, but later writers wanted it to be an alien connection... you compare what Gwen did in the original show to what she does later on and you can tell that the very nature of her powers were changed to match her new backstory (magic replaces by purple energy)... hell the last episode had me asking "so is charmcaster's powers still magic or they supposed to also be unknowingly alien aswell?" ... Kevin, y'know maybe i missed an episode of the old series but i don't recall him ever being turned back to normal or anything; he makes his return to the series with no explanation as to how it happened... personality change, power change, it's pretty much a different character overall
     
  5. Ixis Mordo

    Ixis Mordo Member

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    Personality change I'll give you, but he was apparently able to return to normal as he aged. This was there even in the original show in "Ken 10"; Kevin 11,000 showed up in his human form and was even able to change into his mutant form at will. As for the power change, he was able to absorb energy matter in the original series. The new powers always struck me as an upgraded version of those that also came with aging. You could call them "puberty powers."

    That said, I agree that Kevin is pretty much a different character from Kevin 11. Shame seeing as it didn't have to be that way.

    Yeah, that worked with Ragnarok seeing as he killed his father and all. But there's really no reason for him to go all "Punisher" on any other villains. :sweat:
     
  6. Manga4life

    Manga4life DYNAMITE's PULP FIESTA BLOG!!!

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    I have no real gripes with the continuity with any of the Ben 10 animated series that have been aired through out the years, in fact I view it in the same way I view stuff like Star Wars with an "This could be taken so many different ways" style approach to it. It's fun to debate and piece together continuity but all in all I consider pretty much everything in the original show, Alien Force and Ultimate Alien to be true continuity as long as it isn't designed to be a "What if..." style tale.
     
  7. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator
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    Well, I could see Kevin getting to the point where he'd want to kill other villains if they kidnapped his mother or anyone he really cares about, like Gwen. I agree that it didn't really make much sense when Ben's mother was the captured person.

    I'm not really bothered too much with the continuity issues in the Ben 10 series. The only ones that are kind of annoying revolve around Gwen and Kevin. For starters, Gwen doesn't have any kind of resemblance to how she looked as a ten year old. It isn't really a problem, but it was one of those annoying factors in the first few episodes of Alien Force. The way her powers suddenly changed and had alien origins was also kind of weird, but the episode where it came up was pretty cool, so I went with it. I think that the creators did say that magic does exist in the Ben 10 universe later, which also helped.

    Kevin is my favorite Alien Force/Ultimate Alien character, but it is really weird that they never explained what happened to him in the Null Void. I understand the idea that he got out of his monster form as he aged, which makes sense, but there had to be other events during his time in the Null Void that helped him to become one of the good guys. I was really hoping that season three of Alien Force would focus on his past and I think I remember reading somewhere that the creator promoted it as such, but we only got one episode. It was a cool episode, but it was mostly focused on his father, instead of him. I wouldn't mind if they tried to do that in a future episode, but I doubt that they will considering the amount of episodes they've gone through already.
     
  8. ChildHood90s

    ChildHood90s Loves his coffee

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    I agree with Light Lucario on Gwen and Kevin. Although I loved what they did with Gwen, Kevin becoming a frenemy was just a tad... off.

    Also, I remember the first episode of Ben 10: Alien Force had a completely different mother for Ben! She had brown hair and a different voice. In the scene, she was washing dishes and we could only see her from the chin and below. That was the only time we saw her, and then later Ben's mother from Ben 10 came around.

    Then the whole "Ben. You need to form a team." thing that Grandpa Max to Ben at the beginning of the series never really went anywhere aside from the trio Ben, Gwen, and Kevin traveling together.

    Really, I just think that the writers are writing whatever feels right for the Ben 10 series. They're just exploring what they can do and alter with Ben 10 you know? I'm glad they did this because in many ways, Ben 10: Alien Force was an improvement over Ben 10.
     
  9. Monte

    Monte Active Member

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    Ya actually Ken 10 is one of the episodes i missed and never saw... only saw the first future episode

    Though it is kinda funny that you would bring up a "non-canon" episode to help explain Kevin's status in Alien force =p
    How kevin got where he was and how he changed back is probably one those things they could have atleast went over early on in the series...
    Y'know i vaguely recall reading up on the premise to Ben 10:alien force before it aired and it did go something along the lines of Ben forming a team and leading other alien powered kids... hell that's probably why the series was called "alien force"

    Seems like they may have just changed their plans after the series already went into production... I'd hazard a guess that maybe they figured they wanted to keep it simple and thus just Ben, gwen, and Kevin... if they went with the team idea that would mean having a larger main cast all of which need their fair share of screentime in each episode, their own development and occasionally their own episodes... and the overall problem is that this would take time away from Ben and Gwen, who are the lead characters that the audience is familiar with.

    Maybe some loss of potential in those other characters, but not really a bad idea. I'm reminded of One piece which tries to jungle screen time between 9 characters... lots of potential, but can be a pain to write
     
  10. li_mangaman

    li_mangaman Certified

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    I have read that only "Ken 10" and "Ben 10: Race Against Time" take place out of continuity. However, I like that some of "Ben 10: Race Against Time" has been retroactively re-worked in to Ben 10: Alien Force and Ben 10: Ultimate Alien.

    Has anyone read any of the comics to list their inconsistencies as well?
     
  11. Mad Mod 49

    Mad Mod 49 Active Member

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    Actually, I think the reverse. I had several issues with Ben 10, yes, but Alien Force just had even more issues over it's three seasons that bugged the heck out of me, so I consider it a step down. Ultimate Alien, however, seems to be going in a better direction.
     
  12. Bubblegum Girl

    Bubblegum Girl Magic User Wannabe

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    I agree with the continuity with Gwen and Kevin. I thought it was interesting the Gwen's powers was all magic instead of being of alien origin. Just because the show was called Alien Force, it really doesn't mean that everything has to be related to aliens.

    But my major problem with the continuity was with Kevin. I like the idea of Kevin being good via anti-hero but I didn't understand why he had to be a plumber's son. Apparently almost all of the main characters in Alien Force, were somehow related to a plumber. :shrug: To me it felt like it contradicted on Kevin's background in Ben 10 since if Max knew about Kevin's alien father in Alien Force, why wasn't that mention in the first series? Kevin still could have been a good guy but his reason wasn't because he was related to plumber. It probably would have been interesting if his reason for being good was he trying redeem himself for his past crimes or something along those lines.
     
  13. Master Toon

    Master Toon Active Member

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    I've been wondering the same thing. Also, if Gwen's powers are alien and not magical, how come they work when she uses magical spells? Shouldn't they do nothing because they need her to activate them and not magical incantations?

    The dragon that the Forever Knights tried to slay wants to have a word with you. :rolleyes:

    The same reason he didn't tell Ben about the Omnitrix and The Plumbers when Ben first got the Omnitrix.
     
  14. Ixis Mordo

    Ixis Mordo Member

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    Being a plumbers' kid was probably the only way to explain why he had his "freaky" powers in the first place. But I agree about the Max thing; why didn't he mention it before? I know the Kevin from the orginal series never gave his last name and all, but still...wouldn't Max would've pieced things together and known? :confused:

    I really think they should've had Kevin as an anti-hero who wasn't on Ben and Gwen's side back in the first season of Alien Force and then had him join them by the second season. Cuz really, I would've bought him becoming a good guy and fighting the DNAliens if he hadn't just joined up with his long time enemies (and instantly formed a crush on one of them) without any real hardships whatsoever. And if they had adressed that he'd been a psychopath before, not just a cheap alien tech-selling crook.

    Agreed. Ultimate Alien could be really good if they keep up trying to combine "the best of both worlds."
     
  15. Dusty

    Dusty Superman.

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    I count Alien Force and Ultimate Alien as completely different shows, cause they (the AF and UA crew) completely screwed Ben 10 up,
    so if I don't consider them the same shows I am able to watch them and actually enjoy them,


    D.
     
  16. Bubblegum Girl

    Bubblegum Girl Magic User Wannabe

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    There could be many different reasons why Kevin had those powers. Before Alien Force, I had a couple of theories that Kevin was either an abandon alien or he was a runaway Forever Knights experiment.(When I was watching the Ben 10 episode Framed, I actually thought that Lieutenant Steel was Kevin's father :sweat:)

    Speaking of Forever Knights, I also had a problem with the background with these baddies. In Ben 10, they were a secret organization that collects various powerful alien technology in order to achieve world domination. Whereas in Alien Force, they're just a bunch of knights that collect alien technology in order to kill one dragon.(An alien dragon no less...Are you kidding me with that? :shrug:) To be honest, I would have prefer the Ben 10 Forever Knights over the Alien Force/Ultimate Alien Forever Knights.
     
  17. Yami Ash

    Yami Ash Member

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    I always thought Kevin was just a mutant. We didn't need to know where he got his powers, just like we didn't need to know where Clancy or Zombozo or the Circus Freaks got their powers.

    And it really bugged me in the end of the Darkstar episode where Kevin runs off happily to tell the mother that allowed him to be kicked out onto the streets at the age of 11 some good news about his father. Who is apparently not the one who kicked him out. After what Kevin went through, no matter whose fault it was, Kevin should have a really strained relationship with his mother, not this lovey dovey 'kill to protect her' thing.

    The biggest problem I see is that the Plumbers in the old series seemed pretty clearly an old, defunct government organization, not a huge, intergalactic thing.

    I have some personal retcons to deal with the other continuity problems.

    Vilgax is a family name. The Vilgax we see in Alien Force is the younger brother of the Vilgax from the original series, trying to live up to his ideal of the old family name.

    After Driscoll was captured, a new person took over the Forever Knights, and tried to cement his position with new uniforms and a story that claimed his new purpose for gathering power was the old purpose. The dragon was basically a prop to support his claim to legitimacy.

    I simply don't buy that someone who believes in the strength of family as strongly as Max does would ever marry the sort of alien creature who would abandon her children like that. Until they actually appear in a scene together, I choose to believe that Anodites are parasites, and one of them infected Max's wife, eventually killing her and absorbing her memories. That's why the alien we met believes she's their grandmother.
     
  18. King_of_doom

    King_of_doom kiva fan

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    Glad i'm not the only one who goes in favor of the Forever Knights from the original series than the AF, i mostly see the original FK menacing like Cobra from G.I. Joe, even the mask and armor that they wearing look creepy like a cult or something and in AF they are just a joke, the only reason they exist its because they want to kill a Dragon..........boring.
     
  19. Ixis Mordo

    Ixis Mordo Member

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    I'm bugged that nobody ever seems to consider the possibility that maybe original series Kevin's sob story he told Ben about being kicked out by his parents for being a freak was a lie. He might have ran away from home on his own or his parents kicked him out for the good reason of him being an evil sociopath. Really, after the "false sympathy" thing he pulled on Ben towards the end of that episode in order to take the Omnitrix, how are we supposed to take his word on anything?

    And I thought it was unanimous that the AF Forever Knights were lame.
     
  20. Yami Ash

    Yami Ash Member

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    I added "No matter whose fault it was" to my sentence for that exact reason. At 11 he hates his parents so much that he runs away to live on the streets (and, eventually, an alien prison) and now at 16 he wuvs his mommy? I'm not buying it. Even if his (apparently, step) father was abusive, he would probly at least a little blame his mother for not doing anything.

    Either he ran away from her, or she kicked him out. Either way, not seeing the happy family Alien Force portrays
     

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