Before the Fall: Happiness, the Future, and JLU Batman

Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by Trevor Balena, Jun 10, 2006.

  1. FireWarrior

    FireWarrior The Ultimate Warrior

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    Really? I always thought that Darkseid decided to give Batman a little warning for the heck of it by saying "Flee". Interesting point however, never thought about that.
     
  2. FireWarrior

    FireWarrior The Ultimate Warrior

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    Well it's pretty obvious that we saw that scene in two very different views and pretty much neither of us is going to change our minds so I'm not gonna even try to. As for how he was portrayed in JL/JLU, Batman has always been viewed as cool by the comic fans and the general public. Plus he already had his own series to add to his character development, so I don't really see much more development for Batman since we had great characterizations in B:TAS, TNBA, BB, and the DTVs. Plus JL/JLU offered the chance to focus more on the heroes that haven't been appeared in the DCAU before like WW, MM, GL, Flash, Hawkgirl and it also expanded on Superman a little more since his series ended way prematurely in my opinion. So that's how I view it. With 3 series, and 4 DTV's under his belt, I think we got A LOT of characterization of Batman and JL/JLU just offered the chance for the audience like you and I to see Batman as the "cool" hero. At least that's how I view it.
     
  3. Aldrius

    Aldrius Arrogant Instigator

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    Interesting point, Wolf Boy. I'd argue that he so much doesn't want it on his terms... so much as he doesn't know HOW to treat the people close to him. And thus, pushes them away.
     
  4. Darknight66

    Darknight66 Member

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    Once again I'l mention the only reason Batman survived the omega attack was because he put an alien in the way, and as for Batman and Superman arguing in one ep and drinking coffe in the batmobile in the next, honestly can you imaine Batman telling Superman that he refuses to allow Superman into the Batmobile because he is still mad at him for arguing with him?
     
  5. Trevor Balena

    Trevor Balena Active Member

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    Suffice it to say, I disagree with your points completely, Casey. In fact, I'm of the opinion that Batman's recent behaviour is an ingenious bit of character development and foreshadowing.
     
  6. Nightwing

    Nightwing WF Old Man

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    Quite so, which is why I'm merging this thread with TBalena's since it's the same topic and we had some excellent discussion previously that would go with this Casey Mack's thread like peanutbutter and jelly.

    I understand where you're coming from, Casey, although I don't completely agree. I think your Batman Omega Beam example hurts your argument, because that was a one shot deal. It's not like Bruce dodges godly attacks as part of his training! ;)

    The point, beyond that example, is that Batman may have strayed from his previous incarnations in terms of personality. And I think that may be true and false at the same time. The Timm and Co gang knows Batman. I think we all agree on that to a number of extents, but at the same time the core Batman stubborn nature won't change, there also will be some small changes. It's just a part of being human.

    As time passes people grow into their lives and the lives around them. It doesn't mean they are no longer who they are or have always been. It doesn't mean he isn't Batman. It just means he's human, but ALSO Batman.

    We see that he's human, but he also keeps the status we've always loved of being truly one of a kind. And overall I think that was done well as the DCAU progressed.

    As far as Batman dodging the Omega Beam, I think that can be seen as a separate entity, because I think that scene played into the episode well. Batman was never attacked by Darkseid before and truly we were all at the edge of our seats when it happened because we all know what happens to a person when they get hit by it if they aren't Superman.

    If nothing else, look on the bright side. Once Batman woke up you can bet his already large loner ego got even bigger when he realized he survived! In the workings of Gotham City, Batman feels that he's the only one who can call the shots. It's very ego driven and seemingly unhealthy, but in his case, it's TRUE.
     
  7. TheGrayGhost

    TheGrayGhost Member

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    I don't agree with either analysis. Batman giving a wry smile or having a conversation with this person or that is no cause for alarm, people. It's been a part of the character since BTAS. It even continues into BB. Somethings don't need to be justified in a round-about way. It's much simpler than we all think.
     
  8. SuperBat

    SuperBat Cooler than Chuck Norris

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    Well, that obviously wouldn't be as believable, but I don't see where it matters, because it wasn't them. I don't see where it matters if it had been Green Arrow. The point is, it was Batman.

    Batman Mobile? :confused: Didn't you say that you liked the way he was handled in Justice League? I thought it was just Unlimited that you disliked? Are you going back on that now?

    Batman and Superman are both way too professional to let a silly grudge get in the way of doing their job, don't you think? And what do you mean by character development? He did more in JLU than he did in JL, but (assuming you haven't gone back on what you said) you think there was "character development" for him in JL? How so? Where? Did I miss it? If you're referring to his position in "A Better World," I don't see how that's "character development." The only thing that was really developed was the Lords' Batman. I could understand if you were referring to his relationship with Superman, but I saw an awful lot of that in "For the Man Who Has Everything." I could understand if you were referring to his relationship with Diana, but I think "This Little Piggy" and even "Kids' Stuff" (which said a little bit about his take on his childhood too, I might add) covered that pretty well.

    If you think he was just a gimmick in JLU, then what would you call him in "Injustice for All," where it turned out he was held hostage of his own choosing? Where he practically destroyed the Injustice Gang from the inside out? Or "Wild Card," where he had to stop Ace and Joker all on his own? Wouldn't you call the flashback in "Epilogue" development, when he was with Ace? And what about all that stuff in the Cadmus arc? Was his wavering position there just another gimmick? How exactly would you have preferred he be handled? What would you have wanted him to do? Because if he'd done nothing but detective work, Batman wouldn't have been cool at all. He'd have boring compared to the rest of the League.

    Uh, is it really all that bad if someone thinks he's cool? It's not like MotP would come as a bad shock. And like someone else said, he had more development over the years than anybody. He's pretty well rounded now, especially (if you ask me) thanks to JLU's take on his relationship with the League.

    (Very nice article on it too, TB. :) )
     
    #88 SuperBat, Jul 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  9. HaagenDas

    HaagenDas Active Member

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    Batman was the IDEAL character portrayed in Cadmus. A normal human, who is on the outside but fully supports the mission of the League. He is normal, knows the necessity of the League but still distruts some of its members...Superman in particular. He knows Waller has a legitimate point eventhough he will do everything in his power to stop her. This conflict of attitude and distrust could only work with Batman. To replace him makes no sense. Who would we replace him with? Obviously not a metahuman, they would be against Cadmus full blown unless maybe Captain Atom. The other "normal" heroes of GA, Vigilante, Wildcat, Commander Steel dont work here. Batman is ideal.

    As for the Omega Effect dodging, I understand Casey's beef with it, but the point of Batman was to defy the odds. If we replayed the scenario 1000 times, Batman would be dead the other 999 times. He just dodged this one. He was lucky...something he has been quite often.
     
  10. Anpu

    Anpu Opener of the Way

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    Continuity Set In Stone?

    Hi All!

    In reading over this thread, I had a few thoughts that might well amount to heresy. I haven't posted much on these boards, but I'm an old geezer in comics and animation terms. One of the things I've noticed over the years is that the DC universe only exists in the "now" of time. Anytime we get a glimpse of the future, it's always a "possible" future. I'm just not convinced the Batman Beyond future is a sure thing. Before Justice League started, I probably could have bought it, and I still could, but I'm just not sure that it is destiny.

    I was at a panel at Comic Con several years ago and I asked Bruce Timm if Batman Beyond was the actual, definite future or just one possible future that could come to pass. He wasn't able to answer my question and I'm not sure he really understood what I meant. In any case, even if he did believe Batman Beyond to be Bruce Wayne's inevitable fate, I probably still wouldn't completely buy into it. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed all of the Bruce Timm DC shows. I just not sure we have to justify or explain the past or the future to make them match in animated continuity. If taken to a logical extreme, Batman could have said, "Darkseid, take your best shot! Nothing you can do will kill me! I'm destined to become a bitter, old fart!" I know he doesn't really know this for a fact, Once and Future Thing aside, but we do. We all know that Babs Gordon will never become Oracle, Superman is perfectly safe, at least until the BB time frame, and Tim Drake is headed for a nasty surprise really soon, or do we?

    I'm not suggesting Batman Beyond won't or couldn't happen. I'm just not sure that's the way it has to happen. Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and all the gods of DC's Olympus could come down and tell me that's the way it is and I still wouldn't be totally convinced. Batman, your ticket to the future has not yet been written.

    Just my two cents worth.

    Anpu
     
  11. SuperBat

    SuperBat Cooler than Chuck Norris

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    I think the problem with all of this is that we don't have a say in the DCAU. If we're just talking about Batman in general, and not the DCAU, then the future is whatever we want to believe it is. But if we read a comic book where Batman dies, we can't say that he didn't really die in that particular story. Because he did. If we're watching Batman Beyond, we can't say that Bruce Wayne wasn't really old. Because he was.

    So since JLU takes place in the same timeline as BB, and because it is all the brainchild of Timm, Dini, and the rest of them, we have no say in how it goes. Sure, some people might still consider it only to be a "possible" future, but I don't see what difference our opinion makes anymore.
     
  12. Tinytooncrazy

    Tinytooncrazy Member

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    You may want know on earth two comics before crisis thta Ba tman was married to catwoman and had the huntress as a daughter somehow that makes more sense then the new huntress if you know what I mean. Also I like the diffenet charactation of batman in the various tv series
     
  13. N0-1_H3r3

    N0-1_H3r3 Member

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    One thing that hasn't been considered is that Batman's 'human limits' may not actually be all that limited...

    There's been speculation regarding the comic continuity for years that suggests that Batman may actually be metahuman in some small and unknown way. Consider that he's one of the finest martial artists in the world - the likes of Lady Shiva don't stand a chance when he puts his mind to it - remains at the peak of physical fitness for decades, and yet still manages to possess an analytical mind almost beyond compare, and boasts a considerable knowledge of forensics, human psychology, politics, business, technology, chemistry, biology, physics and a dozen other subjects... before you even consider his acting ability (he operates in disguise and undercover on more than a few occasions, and manages to successfully distance the way he acts in public as Bruce Wayne with the way he acts as Batman), and skill at the wheel of a car or the controls of a plane.

    Batman is superior in almost every respect to every other human being on the planet - and even those who are able to match or surpass him in one or two regards (consider Lex Luthor, whose intellect, ambition and technical knowledge rivals that of Batman at the very least, and may even surpass it) can't hope to match him at everything he does. If that doesn't class him as superhuman, even just a little, I don't know what does.

    As for the Superman/Batman friendship - this is well-depicted in the comics as well. Batman sees Superman as an unattainable ideal - an utterly selfless hero. At the same time, Superman looks to Batman for inspiration - when even the Man of Steel is sorely tested and wants to give up, he can look at Batman, who has no special powers of any sort, and yet who never gives up, ever... Superman knows that he has to continue. Each sets an example that the other tries to live up to... of course, they don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on the details and methods (Batman views the world as chaotic, and sees his actions as a way of stemming the tide and maintaining order; Superman views the world as intrinsically fair and good, and works to prevent the bad things from happening to good people. Same goal, different approaches), but that's part of the fun, really.

    Bruce as portrayed in Batman Beyond and The Dark Knight Returns is one who has been kicked by the world once too often. We don't know what sets him off in TDKR, but for the Beyond version of Bruce, it's the shattering of his family at the hands of his greatest adversary, and how utterly powerless he was to stop it, at least to his mind. That, more than anything suggests that he'd force everyone else away, and dedicate his remaining years to not getting 'distracted' by friends or family, not letting up on his mission... his failure in 'Rebirth' was the final nail in the coffin - he'd been plagued by self-doubt since the events in the RoTJ flashback, about whether or not he was able to succeed or do any good (at least as far as I can figure), and being forced to consider using a gun is the lowest he feels he can get. So he gives up...

    Anyway, that's my rambling tuppence-worth for the moment.
     

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