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Before the Fall: Happiness, the Future, and JLU Batman

Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by Trevor Balena, Jun 10, 2006.

  1. dc_gothamite

    dc_gothamite dead is dead

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    part of the change may be cuz batman wasnt the star of the show anymore... he shared the spotlight with 6+ heroes...

    as for superman... given the context and the general point of the cadmus arc, im not really surprised...
     
  2. Toddman

    Toddman Hulk not good with words.

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    Shot and killed? Or just like shot in the leg or something? 'Cause I'm all for a good old-fashioned shooting, especially when it comes to pluggin' some no-good television animation writer(s). I can't get behind shooting anybody unless it's to put them out of their misery for good.

    (None of that "flesh wound" nonsense for me...)



    Toddman
     
  3. TheGrayGhost

    TheGrayGhost Member

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    You guys are making it too complicated for yourselves; it's simpler than you may think.
     
  4. Wolf Boy2

    Wolf Boy2 Active Member

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    You dare to diss Batman?!? I FLAME you, Casey Mack! You hear that, mods??? I am FLAMING him! Flame! Flame! Flame!:evil:

    Bats got more dark in TNBA because of Dick leaving. He was still dark in JLU. He wasn't having girl talk with Shayera, he was warning her about a creepy stalker (just like he warned Nightwing about Catwoman in TNBA).

    He stayed for lunch with GL because HE NEEDS TO EAT. What did you expect him to do? Hop in the Jav-7, fly back to the Batcave and have Alfred make him a sandwich?

    And he did crazy superhero action in B:TAS. His villians just weren't quite as sci-fi/fantasy as they are now. And he has ALWAYS had the best (and sometimes worst) quips and lines.

    B.t. and crew KNOW Batman, and they handled him just as well in JL as in B:TAS, TNBA and BB.
     
  5. James

    James Administrator
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    It's the nature of the loner being forced into a group situation. People work differently in groups to how they work alone. Situations put merit in Batman moving in group circles and to some degree, practicality outweighs personal whim. I never saw an issue myself. I'm not sure how else you'd realistically include such a character. As much as seeing him get lunch looks odd, it would be pretentious and out of character for him to shoot down to the Batcave to eat. Batman is as practical as he is a loner. I couldn't see him putting practicality aside for his own personal idioms.
     
  6. HaagenDas

    HaagenDas Active Member

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    I thought he was in perfect character during the Cadmus Arc. He was sneaky and confronted Waller at every turn...surprising her. He matched her every move analytically, but still had a small part of him believe she was right...thus his slight distrust of Superman et al (bed speech in Doomsday Sanction and him stopping WW from stopping Superman when he was about to kill Luthor).

    Bats was the skeptic the entire time. He believed in sacrificing himself to his max abilities and do things no one would ever expect him to. His skepticism was clear when he spoke to Shayerra about Carter Hall. And him dodging the Omega Effect...I think that was amazing and a true testiment to who Batman really was...the human being who pushes himself to the max and defies all odds to perform heroic and astonshing acts.

    I do agree with the argument with one example though...Starcrossed, when he briefly gave GL love advice with the "Women..the most mysterious creatures in the universe" bit. I can see a legitimate beef with that. I would think a dark Batman would just be in GL's face "That is what you get for not concentrating on the mission!" and just turn away.
     
  7. Christopher Glennon

    Christopher Glennon Punch Drunk Flounder
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    Wolf Boy is right, how do eating lunch and using an elevator ruin his character from before?

    You did see "Epilogue", didn't you? That gave the character Batman more depth than anything we've seen on TNBA.

    He may've gone a bit far appearing in front of a crowd at the end of "Divided We Fall" or giving the villains a headstart in "Destroyer", but those were the exceptions, not the rule. He was as intense and focused as he needed to be. He actually felt more at ease around the Justice League than his sidekicks because he didn't feel that he was above them or that he needed to control their actions.
     
  8. TheGrayGhost

    TheGrayGhost Member

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    Although it was a dream that never took place in continuity, I think Over The Edge gave us just about as much insight on the character of Batman as Epilogue.

    Interesting interpretation. I took his actions as a sign of respect and confidence; Batman knows better than anyone that every hero eventually has to make their own decision regarding whether or not to take a life. It's part of the journey of the hero; it was Superman and Superman alone who had to make that decision. Batman understood that Wonder Woman's intervention would have cheated Superman of his moment of truth.
     
  9. Wolf Boy2

    Wolf Boy2 Active Member

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    Yeah, but the so-called "darker" TNBA Batman had such conversations with Superman in "World's Finest." And besides, no one in the DCAU has had worse experiences with "the most mysterious creatures in the universe" than poor Brucie. Andrea went evil and killed mob bosses, Selina was a theif, Talia was Ra's Al Ghul's daughter, Randa was a robot, Sue was a plant, Barb dumped him, Lois loved Superman, the list goes on and on.

    I think Bats had a soft-spot for GL because he was so familiar with betrayal and failed love himself. The line worked perfectly to me. I took it as a reference to Brucie's screwed up love life.
     
  10. Arrakhat

    Arrakhat Trust me, I'm a doctor

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    Actually, only the black and white scenes were dream sequences. And the part with Ace and Waller talking to Terry did develop Batman tons. Over the Edge doesn't come close to Epilogue.
     
  11. Aldrius

    Aldrius Arrogant Instigator

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    Uh... he was saying Over the Edge was a dream sequence... >_>;;.

    Personally, while a cool episode, I think Over the Edge showed more of the character of Gordon, and Barbara's importance to the team, than anything to do with Bruce's characterization...

    Even Epilogue was more about Terry. All Bruce did was say "RAR. I DUN LIKE PEOPLE. THEY DON'T HAVE THE HEART FOR THE MISSION!!" and then he was acting like Alfred around Terry at the end of the episode...

    Meh. Batman's character development outside of Batman: The Animated Series and MotP is pretty minimal, in my opinion.
     
  12. MR.MXYZPTLK

    MR.MXYZPTLK Mild Mannered Reporter

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    Yes but Batman can't eat! Thats not dark and brooding enough!!!!
     
  13. Christopher Glennon

    Christopher Glennon Punch Drunk Flounder
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    Well, THAT part was a fantasy sequence, in Terry's head.

    Yeah, the episode was mainly about Terry, but by having the second Batman and Bruce's son think about his legacy, we see a lot about Bruce, particularly with the Ace flashback. Also Waller's analogy comparing Batman in the Justice League with her china set is a comment on his place on the team.
     
  14. Jazzie

    Jazzie Member

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    I liked Batman letting his guard down and having friends. He'd didn't have to do put the "image" around Superman and GL or Diana, they knew him too well. That made him well rounded. I hate psycho nutbag Batman in the comics.
     
  15. Wolf Boy2

    Wolf Boy2 Active Member

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    You hit the nail on the head. People are expecting to see the half-insane Frank Miller Batman in the DCAU. But DCAU Batman is not Frank Miller Batman and never will be.

    Get over it.

    Becuase of the Adam West version, people have gotten terrified of Batman having a personality because they think it will make him campy again.
     
  16. dc_gothamite

    dc_gothamite dead is dead

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    heh... if u think batman's psycho in the regular continuity, try readin "all-star batman and robin"... u got a batman who asks people if they're "retarded" and forces a kid to live on rats in a cave :evil:
     
  17. Wolf Boy2

    Wolf Boy2 Active Member

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    Yeah... 'cause he's the g*ddamn Batman!:lol:
     
  18. Casey Mack

    Casey Mack Active Member

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    I don't mind him haveing a personality, i just draw the line at endless one liners, eating lunch in your bat-suit, dodging eye beams from gods, and lets not forget going to the Flash Museum opnening. Batman had one moment of character development in the last season, after Boston possed his body and shot that black mantis guy. Guess what, they never explored it alittle, instead Batman becomes this ratings gimmick who never loses a fight and never runs out of snappy lines.

    Yes DCAU Batman went from being a deep charater, to an older version of THE Batman version. I can imagine Bruce eating Nachos in the watchtower Lunchroom now, and i can imagine him saying all the snappy lines THe Batman says ever episode. So no matter how much some people hate THE BATMAN, guess what DCAU Batman has become his mirror image in some ways. I wonder how somoebody is suppose to invoke fear into the crminals of Gotham, if hes to busy haveing dinner in his bat-suit or attending supermans birthday party.
     
  19. Wolf Boy2

    Wolf Boy2 Active Member

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    Let's start here. He had one liners all throughout B:TAS and TNBA. Some of them were good ("At this point, he probably is") and some were bad ("time for a little Bat-magic"). This side of his personality was not invented for JL/JLU.
    He has to wear the mask because people who don't know his identity are in that same dining room. Prior to Starcrossed, he kept it on even around the core 7 and when wounded.
    And yet constantly dodging Tommy Gun bullets on B:TAS was acceptable?
    Bruce recognized that Wally was all heart, and he respects that. Bruce knows that Wally has qualities that he never will have. Also, keep in mind that Wally has saved Bruce and the whole word. Bruce explains this to Orion pretty well.
    Again... these personality traits existed before JLU. And what did you expect him to say or do about the gun? Batman is a logical guy. He knows good and well that it was Boston Brand who killed Devil Ray, not him.
     
  20. Casey Mack

    Casey Mack Active Member

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    ^ well goodpoints i guess, but Batman "dodging" a tommy gun, and dodging death beams from an immortal god is different. Darkseids Beams have never missed their target in 400 plus years. Beams that superman could never dodge, Beams that beings of incredibe power have met thier end to, but yet Batman dodges them like its routine. I think the producers really need to stop putting Batman into a hyperbole, and start focuseing on him as a character again. They simply were makeing him do improbable things for a "non powered super-hero".:shrug: Because the last season of Justice League [while fun] was an example of a show that jumped the shark IMO. Interesting enough i can't imagine christian Bales Batman doing the things that JLU "Batman" made look like childaplay. That probbaly because live-action Batman is no longer a gimmick character. I can't get how much Justice league Unlimted Batman reminds me off "Batman Forever" and "Batman and Robins" Batman character.
     

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