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"Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'DC Live-Action Movies and Television' started by James Harvey, Mar 24, 2016.

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"Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" - Post your review and rate the movie!

  1. *****

    23.3%
  2. ****1/2

    6.7%
  3. ****

    10.0%
  4. ***1/2

    3.3%
  5. ***

    10.0%
  6. **1/2

    13.3%
  7. **

    6.7%
  8. *1/2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. *

    10.0%
  10. 1/2

    16.7%
  1. James Harvey

    James Harvey The World's Finest
    Staff Member Administrator Moderator Reporter

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    The Son of Krypton versus the Bat of Gotham!

    [​IMG]

    Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
    Release date: March 25, 2016 (with March 24, 2016 early screenings)
    Studio: Warner Bros. Pictures
    Director: Zack Snyder
    Screenwriters: Chris Terrio, David S. Goyer
    Starring: Ben Affleck, Henry Cavill, Amy Adams, Jesse Eisenberg, Diane Lane, Laurence Fishburne, Jeremy Irons, Holly Hunter, Gal Gadot, Lauren Cohan, Jeffrey Dean Morgan

    Plot Summary: Fearing the actions of a god-like Super Hero left unchecked, Gotham City’s own formidable, forceful vigilante takes on Metropolis’s most revered, modern-day savior, while the world wrestles with what sort of hero it really needs. And with Batman and Superman at war with one another, a new threat quickly arises, putting mankind in greater danger than it’s ever known before.

    Post your reviews and discuss Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice right here!

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    Wonder Woman Comic Series Talkback (Spoilers)


     
  2. rggkjg1

    rggkjg1 Batman v Superman

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    The future for the cinematic DCU is hopeless. The assumed/expected Justice League movie is a lost cause. I now have minimal expectations for the solo Flash movie. The only ray of hope I can hold on to is the solo Wonder Woman movie. It looked hopeless to me in the MIDDLE of the movie. If something was to look hopeless, I would think it would be at least at the END.

    I don't even think I want to talk about the movie. If I ever get asked about it, sighing or shaking my head no would just be enough. It's not the worst thing ever made or I ever seen, but jeez. These iconic characters and the bigger picture (cinematic DCU), why does Dawn Of Justice leave me so underwhelmed to disappointed when we have those two things at stake here.

    I honestly think if someone set the bar as low as they could for Dawn Of Justice, they would still be disappointed. I'm not saying I set the bar THAT low. I saw Man Of Steel. I knew what to expect. The film has noteworthy moments: Superman and Batman finally coming together at the end. Wonder Woman's debut and battling alongside Batman and Superman. Unfortunately, it just isn't enough.
     
  3. Riddler

    Riddler Active Member

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    *SPOILERS*

    I just got back from seeing it, and honestly I was pleasantly surprised. It was actually a pretty decent movie, though I admit my expectations were quite low especially after all the negative reviews it's been getting. Personally, I would say it was at least as good as Man of Steel....maybe even a little better. It's entirely possible my opinion will degrade the more I think on it though.

    I think the first 2/3 of the movie is actually quite good..... it just dragged on too long at the end with Doomsday. Not sure how I feel about the whole Death of Superman thing at the end either. I think they crammed too many different stories into one movie.

    Batman was interesting, though obviously the whole killing thing is out of character and not what I'd like to see. I'm looking forward to a solo Batman film in the near future (presumably a prequel?) The movie effectively made me excited about more DCU movies, that's for sure.

    If I had to apply a score, I would say it's somewhere between a 60% and 70%.... it was certainly not the worst movie I've ever seen. In fact, IMO, it was better than most of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies (admittedly I'm a DC fan over Marvel).

    The question now is...given all the negative reception, will Warner Bros. be changing it's DCU movie plans? Wasn't Justice League going to start filming soon? I wonder if that will be postponed. I guess it will ultimately depend the ticket sales of this movie...
     
    #3 Riddler, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  4. GWOtaku

    GWOtaku Moderator
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    Well. This wasn't what I feared it would be. Unfortunately, it also isn't what I hoped for. I can't get into my fundamental issue with what they have done without talking about the ending in detail, so be warned.

    Let's first dispense with what this movie is not. Contra some of the more terrifying takes I've read, this does not amount to the ethos of Watchmen as applied to the DC Universe or even a base caricature of a "dark and serious" setting as if Snyder were attempting his best impersonation of Frank Miller. It is also evident from the movie's ending that "Dawn of Justice" was something more than a marketing gimmick, and that Snyder and company really believed that with this movie they were advancing the ball down the field from where Man of Steel left off.

    And yet......and yet. The more I think about it all, the more inclined I am to heavily sigh. Not because this movie is as much as an hour too long, although it is. Not because the conflict of the film loses much of the philosophical punch it aspires to since it is artificially manufactured by Luthor in more ways than one, which it does. Not because the "knightmares" and hero cameos are so transparently more about teasing sequels than serving the narrative, which they are. Not even because the fight against Doomsday is remarkably contrived to avert collateral damage, to the point of unapologetic pandering to critics.

    No, I see what they are up to now. But it doesn't work for me. The root of the problem is an Original Sin. "The world only makes sense if you force it to" is something Batman says that might as well be Zack Snyder's rallying cry. Rather than ethics, Snyder would give us heroes motivated by raw emotion and especially defined by a long struggle against despair.

    If you think that is too far, I can only say that no one has to take my word for it. This film and the prior one make it implicit, if not explicit.

    1. Wonder Woman, perhaps the most courageous and heroic figure in the entire film in costume, is someone that we're told cast off attachments from this world after despairing of the world men were creating in the 20th century. Which, I would think, begs the question of why she was taking interest in anything happening in this story.

    2. Batman considers his war on crime and criminals ultimately fruitless, and in fact informs Alfred that they are as good as criminals themselves. He believes his only shot at a lasting legacy is eliminating the "1% chance" that Superman will abuse his power on the world. We are, apparently, asked to accept that it makes sense for Bruce to throw away this conviction or to believe the 1% chance has become zero upon the not-so-amazing revelation that Superman too has a mother that he loves.

    3. Where to begin with Superman? In Man of Steel, he spent much of that film fearing to reveal himself for fear of what people might say and think about him. Here, he does not care about that, which one could take as a mark of character development. But that has been exchanged for a deep, crippling pessimism that he can make people trust and understand him. To the extent that people embrace him it's a deification he's presumably not comfortable with, while the movie is rife with TV commentary rehashing every issue that kept him anonymous in the last movie. Luthor frames Clark to make him look bad, to be sure, but the man who would not be our God finds it easier to brood in silence or complain to Lois than to connect with the public he serves. Faced with the reality of being the lone survivor of a terrorist bombing, all he can manage is running away. Inspiring others? Clark has trouble motivating himself.

    And it goes on and on, everywhere you look. Every other hero in-universe is in hiding incognito at best, following Clark's dubious Man of Steel example. Perry White declares the American conscience "dead" and cares more about selling papers than what's newsworthy (more than a few writers asserted that Perry is supposed to be one of the stronger aspects of the movie? Are you kidding me?). Lex Luthor spends two and a half hours trying to give the movie major thematic heft with his secular jihad to declare that God is dead, that God is useless, and that if God were to exist in this world it would become necessary to kill him. In such comics as Kingdom Come and Justice what drove this attitude was a fervent humanism or at least his own unsurpassed egotism, while here it's apparently because daddy was cruel. Even the fanatic is restricted to believing in nothing.

    Against all of this and more, the tragedy and triumph of the film is supposed to be that Superman is Jesus. He dies to save and protect a world that, at that moment, didn't even really believe in him. Through his death in the Doomsday fight doubts are swept away, the public mourns, and in theory we will collectively realize just how lucky we were to have him. It's even this death that, we're clearly meant to believe, will result in the creation of the Justice League through Batman. Superman going out like a hero is the "Dawn of Justice".

    But here's the thing. What inspires all of that?

    Batman says they need to gather other metahumans and that they'll fight. Wonder Woman asks why. Bruce says he has a feeling that they'll have to. OK, that works as a transparent teaser. To this narrative, it offers nothing. What did Superman teach Batman? The implication is that the answer is "nothing" and the key motivation seems to be Bruce's feeling that he "failed him [Superman] in life." Ah. Guilt again. And will Batman change the way he does things at all, or does he go on seemingly using pain as his primary weapon rather than fear as in other iterations? We're left to wonder at that too. What did Batman and Superman do to make Wonder Woman commit to helping out from now on? Well, we don't know. But we sure did get at least five minutes of people mourning Superman.

    Superman is the most troubling angle. Look at what's recurring in the film. Superman saves Lois from a terrorist group, and some bad guys are taken down in the process. There is collateral damage. Lois seems more concerned about this than Clark ever does. In fact, in the tub scene he doesn't even want to hear about the criticism of the event. He did the right thing, end of story. It also seems implied that saving Lois mattered most to him. Throughout the film, Lois is the person whose opinion he values the most. There's also a fleeting scene with Martha Kent where she declares that Clark can and should do whatever he wants to do, and that he owes the world nothing. Clark does not argue the point at all, which suggests uncomfortable things about his behavior in the movie and his reaction to the Capitol Hill bombing. His conversation with ghost Pa Kent prior to his return seems to revolve around handling guilt. Near the end, Clark tells Lois that she was his whole world. The #1 decisive factor for Clark coming back seems to be Lois, moreso than a conviction that he can be the inspiration Jor-El thought that he could be.

    "For Superman so loved Lois Lane that he gave his very life for the world she lived in, for she was his world." -The Book of Snyder, 3:16

    Does that feel right to you?

    Here's the thing about doing a Christ figure: that person needs to be Christlike. What about empathy and concern for his fellow man? When the cycle completes and Superman is resurrected (come now: we all know that's coming), what will make things any different and better from before? Where's the answer? Where's even the suggestion of an answer? What will make the Justice League worthy of the name, aside from the vanquishing of terrible existential threats?

    After two movies, these are not questions that should be asked. But here we are, and that can be blamed on a creative force behind an entire fictional world that can perceive no need for a setting or heroes guided by a moral center.

    But hey, at least they beat a monster.
     
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    #4 GWOtaku, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  5. Wounded_Dragon

    Wounded_Dragon Active Member

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    For me, it was the first 90 or so that dragged. Part of that is how long Lex stays "clean" when it's obvious to pretty much every moviegoer that he's the villain. Another part is how long Batman falls for Lex's plans to pit him against Batman. For someone renowned as a detective, he sure couldn't smell set-up when it stunk up the whole place. Hell, the suicide bomber should've been enough to go all Ackbar "this is a trap" but no...he was still in Frank Miller *beep* *beep* Batman mode. And it did not help that the movie practically started out with a nude Amy Adams scene. It works and yet is so unnecessary that it draws attention to itself.

    Wonder Woman's role in the movie works surprisingly well. The rest of the Justice League aspects don't. They're too shoehorned and unnecessary. Flash's burst into the Batcave on the heels of Bruce "Injustice Gods Among Us + Darkseid" dream was a waste of time. At 153 minutes I don't appreciate time being wasted. I feel like there's 70 minutes of story here, maybe.

    I can see sparks of good stuff but it's mired in self-indulgent cynicism and gratuitous spectacle. Clark should have been able to refute Perry's dead conscience statement but he doesn't, not as Clark or Superman. And by killing Clark at the end of this movie, they took the good parts of MoS and crapped all over them. It's too early for the Death and Return storylines to be used.

    I feel sorry for the actors. They did what they could, breathing some life into this story but it'd take a real-life Superman to accomplish that.
     
  6. the greenman

    the greenman Well-Known Member

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    Well, now I'm not sure what to expect of the DCEU, other than inconsistent. Eisenberg's performance of Luthor was in a nutshell, like the whole film, all over the place. The first hour was basically a bunch of little vignettes spread around different characters.

    Doomsday was boring, cliched, and looked like every other cgi monster in the past 15 years. Wonder Woman got applause in my theatre. I must say, the music was slightly better than I have heard from Zimmer's catalogue.

    Sent from my LGMS323 using Tapatalk
     
  7. DarkAngel

    DarkAngel Lord Vader

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    So I unexpectedly caught a showing today. Still going again tomorrow with friends.

    I quite liked it. The Doomsday battle at the end was my least favorite part, and so was unfortunate to leave the theater with that feeling. But on the whole, I liked it.

    It thought the opening was fantastic. We've seen the Waynes killed before, but I liked the staging here. Young Bruce running intercut with the flashback of the murders. That sense of him running from it, and then falling as his parents fall, as great. And it that framing lent itself well to the idea of Batman being born with his parents deaths. I also really like that the focus, for once, was on Martha rather than Thomas.

    Seeing the destruction at the end of MoS from Bruce's perspective was also excellent. I found that to be a very effective way to disengage from my past feelings and knowledge of Superman, and to see through the eyes of someone experiencing this horror and perceiving a foreign/alien threat.

    With that in mind, it was also interesting to see through the cop's eyes a bit later, experience his dread, as he finds Batman hidden up in the corner.

    The buildup to the eventual fight between Batman and Superman was relatively well handled. I like that in the initial conversation between Bruce and Alfred, in which what Bruce intends with regard to Superman is revealed, that Bruce does note that Superman is "not yet" the enemy. I liked that sense early that Batman is planning ahead for a potential threat, and not immediately perceiving that action needs to be taken.

    We knew what to expect from Jesse's performance from ads and trailers. I liked it. Given all the other darkness, I was glad that he consistently had me smiling. There was something oddly charming, while also unsettling, and I thought that worked well. Glad that we had the familiarity of Lexcorp behind him, something that had been missing in past Superman movies, but also that there were elements of "mad scientist" Lex from the past comics. Also, given the Doomsday stuff later, interesting that we had a younger Luthor with red hair, like in the comics. With mention of his dad, I did wonder whether it was at all possible that we were looking at the father reborn in the "son".

    I liked the mini mystery of Gal Gadot's character and the interaction between her and Bruce.

    The fight itself, between Batman and Superman...man...I knew Lex was going to be manipulating things. I did not expect the direct impact he'd have in bringing Superman into it. But, I liked that element a lot. One reason was that it was something of an echo of TDKR. There, it was the President sending Superman after Batman. Here, it was Luthor. I also liked the revelation, which I'd suspected, that Lex knew Clark was Superman (though I wonder, Batman too?).

    The biggest reason, though, was it evoked emotion I never expected. I thought we'd have two very willing combatants, each wanting to take the other down. Instead, having Superman forced into this because his mom's life is in danger, and needing Batman's help to save her, and knowing his focus is only on bringing the Man of Steel down...that tore at me. I had been looking forward to the fight, but suddenly, as it drew near, I was dreading it. I didn't want it to happen. And I'm a Batman fan. So to be on the end of not wanting him to do this. To be, in a sense, looking through Superman's eyes and experiencing the fear of what someone like Batman can do when his mind is set on something...mmm...I love that they so unexpectedly drew that out of me.

    And, I loved the Martha moment at the end. I've always thought it cool that both mothers had the same name. Never imagined it would be a plot point, and something to allow such a human moment and connection between the two. Seeing Batman channel his rage and energy into a determination that Martha would not be dying that night was special, and maybe especially so given that it was Clark's mother and not his.

    Like I said at the beginning, the Doomsday fight didn't do much for me. If Zod's body was going to be used, I really wish it had just been some kind of re-animated, or cloned, version of him, such that Batman, WW, and Supes could have fought Michael Shannon, which would have allowed for better choreography and staging that we'd feel more.

    I almost forgot, but I should comment on that Knightmare sequence, and Flash contacting Bruce. I don't know if I caught everything there, but were we looking at an Injustice reference? It seemed like we were looking at a regime under Superman related to the loss of Lois, or Martha? And connected with Darkseid somehow? It sounded like Flash was saying that Bruce was right...about Superman being a threat? Perhaps Superman under Darkseid's influence? I suppose, if any of this is right, that it was likely tied to the loss of Martha, and in saving her, maybe that future was averted. But based on Lex's words at the end, the threat is still coming.

    Anyway, I enjoyed the movie a lot with my interest lower during the Doomsday segment. I am feeling like the 3-hr cut will be better, assuming most of the added footage is before the Doomsday finale.

    I'm sure more things will come to mind, as there was a lot to take in, and my second viewing tomorrow will probably bring out or remind me of other things.
     
  8. CoolEric158

    CoolEric158 She rocks both ways.

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    While I totally get why people don't like it, I gotta say that I was overall pleased. I think the best way to describe my reaction is this: the things that are good are unbelievably good. The second half has a lot of memorable scenes that I think do make it worth the price of admission. I liked the battle between Bruce and Clark, I liked Wonder Woman's fight scenes, and I liked the conclusion to the fight with Doomsday, even though the design for Doomsday looked kinda lame and the whole "body of Zod, blood of Lex" thing was kinda stupid. I also enjoyed the opening, as it had some good emotion and great staging and production design. The acting all around was pretty solid, minus one actor who I'll get to soon, and overall I did have a really good time.

    But there are some things that do feel a little off which makes me not really consider it to be great. First off, Lex Luthor. I like the idea Eisenberg was going for, with someone who is teetering on the edge of insanity, but it just didn't work for me. The performance felt too over-the-top and hammy that it just came off as distracting. The first act of the movie also felt a bit too excessive for my tastes. Obviously it's a big story, but I feel that the editing could have been sharper in balancing out all of these plots.

    But honestly, I still didn't feel ripped off or disappointed. It was entertaining and I'm interested in seeing how this cinematic universe continues.
     
  9. Neo Ultra Mike

    Neo Ultra Mike Creeping Shadow of "15000"+ Posts

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    Long rambly review ahead with spoilers... which should be obvious but saying it anyway.

    Again though I grew up having known about some of the most popular heroes as a kid, I never really paid attention to comic book lore much. Still I remember on the playground... or maybe it was in Animorphs books at least but I do remember hearing a large debate between who was better and who would win in a fight between Batman and Superman. And I remember as a kid knowing the basics of the characters having two conclusions:

    1. Batman and Superman wouldn't fight anyway since they're on the same team

    2. Even if they weren't, Superman has like super powers and Batman doesn't so Superman would instantly win.

    Of course everyone tries throwing out a lot of "well Batman's so smart he would create incredible technology that would match Superman" or "Bruce would know to exploit Clark's weaknesses before Supes could take things seriously" or even "well uh Batman could uh do this thing and like Superman would be uh totally screwed and stuff." This was a pretty massive debate but again as a kid growing up on Superfriends, didn't seem that much a big deal for me. I did get it more watching Superman the animated series in the episodes Batman was in and of course Justice League how the two could not only clash but also how Bats would have an advantage but I never took it at all seriously. Still this is one of the big geek myths. That though was probably there in some form or another since if not the two's inception or meet up on a radio play from the 40's, really kick started in Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns graphic novel of the 80's where the two did have a massive brawl. And that clash became a large part of not only the ongoing comic book mythos but various shows, games, toys, specials, and of course all sorts of animated features. However for the longest time until now it was not something that really took off as a big Hollywood tent pole release, though granted not for lack of trying.

    Yeah there's been plans likely for the two to meet for ages but until this year the biggest sign that's been seen of it on the big screen are either jokes (Batman mentioning Superman in Batman and Robin and an easter egg image from I Am Legend) and a lot of cancelled projects. During the down time after Schumacher's Batman films fizziled out there were reports of wanting to do a World's Finest movie but those never went anywhere as it seemed like the idea of icons clashing on screen would be too much for any Hollywood movie to have... yeah until the Avengers came and proved how popular that is. But honestly this isn't something I thought DC would of gotten too so soon. Since I remember hearing lots of reports of how regardless of how Man of Steel turned out, the next project would just be another Superman sequel because DC needed to start getting their cinematic universe off the ground and actually have a proper set up before they introduced the major heroes clashing. And granted Man of Steel did fairly well in terms of ticket sales but... it was not the Iron Man level critic or fan success to start off a Cinematic Universe and personally though I still hold firm in the action scenes, scope and even Zod being solid in Man Of Steel, it does have a lot more misses then hits. Still it was enough of a hit to seem like a regular sequel would happen... but I got a feeling the Warner Brothers executives realized they'd never catch up to Marvel at the rate they were going and really wanting to rush into their cinematic Universe. So figured "you know what? Screw it: next one have Batman in it" and... yeah if you're second billing on your title it's clear it's not just your movie anymore. Heck at least Captain America is still the star in the title of Civil War even if that's about him clashing with Iron Man. Regardless though of the Man of Steel back lash and some early bashing of casting picks and of trailers and of how the film was marketed, this is looking to be a pretty epic size hit. And it needs to at least be Avengers level for DC to really have any ground to stand on getting Justice League off the ground next year. Regardless though people have been waiting for eons for World's Finest and I admit in some way I've been waiting awhile to see these two clash in this form since they started pumping the project more forward, so time to finally answer that million dollar question: who won and more importantly did it deliver?

    To answer question one technically Batman and to answer question two, it's better then Man of Steel but has it's predecessor's problems and new ones that do drag it down some.

    Okay to start off on a positive I will say the characterization is honestly a lot better here then it was in MoS. Granted some characters still have either setting much more on exposition or hopeful biblical symbolism ideals, but it is overall much more improved. Last time around I complained you didn't get really a solid overall arc for Clark Kent at all but here there was emphasis put on doing that and actually having it be solid: the idea of him wanting to be a symbol but seeing how much that got everyone to fighting and argue and being used wanting to distance himself from it, but realizing people would still be hurt and embracing it more. And accepting that fate along with his death, more on that later. But still there actually felt like there was a solid arc with him and he was more in character with what I know of Superman. There were some weird bits (like he did still tackle someone to death in the first scene of him who was trying to shoot Lois when he didn't have to and yeah that guy's dead cause we saw him crash into a wall and the guy was a normal human so yeah even if Superman didn't kill anyone else he still killed that one guy which was never addressed. Also if he has super senses shouldn't he of picked up on the fact that the people that Batman was chasing had guns and missile launchers and you know at least take that out of that truck? Just saying seems like he could of focused on that as well) but if did flow better and reflect more on an actual character. They even actually try to do something with Clark too trying to investigate Batman which... yeah only is there to fuel there grudge but it at least seems apparent. Plus I'll give this movie props for the whole secret identity thing being there and sometimes it being sort of obvious (did no one still realize the two's connection when Supes died and they still did an article on Clark? Seriously they even say in this movie "This isn't 1938" but that's something a 1938 story would of done not something that's suppose to be more modern and intelligent and what not) but not being as forced in our faces and honestly having other people actually find out more naturally and what not.

    And honestly the cast from the first movie is much improved. I still don't buy Lois and Clark's relationship at all. Like seriously even when they're having romantic "I'm naked and you're standing over me" make up sessions it's still about "I can only be this figure for you not for everyone else" and "I don't want you if it means not being yourself" and symbolic talk in that regard. Like they try really hard to make it seem like these two have a connection but I never buy it. Even when he's rescuing her from being trapped under fallen rubble and she helps him with that Kryptonite staff and she's crying over his grave... I just don't feel a connection between the two. If they bothered talking about something other then his importance maybe I would but they really don't so it's hard to get into on that level and yeah that is rather annoying. Still as a reporter I did like her spunk more, especially talking to that one senator chasing that bullet story and pointing out that though she'd like to prove Superman's "innocence" in that regard she wants to get down to the truth and knows he does as well. And this time around she is specifically more helpful without it being as forced in. I... guess her having a helicopter that takes her to Gotham (which apparently is only like a few miles away apparently if everyone can see the signal Batman leaves for Supes... and the two have constant news reports about the other. I guess that is for convenience and again in this universe it could be possible the two are right next to each other but it is rather weird) could count but at least that was explained over "uh apparently Zod wanted her to go with Superman as well for no good reason" from the last film. Plus actually telling Batman that Martha is also Clark's mother... actually plus point there for actually doing something with the two having the same name for their mother which has been there since the late 30's but I don't know anyone else who made reference to that at all so props there. Back on point getting the two to stop fighting and actually retrieving the spear were useful so... good on her. Thinking about it I guess Martha was as useful as she was in the last movie just being there to have an excuse for Superman to save someone from his home town but eh her line about knowing Batman's a friend of Superman cause of how they dress was sort of amusing which is... more then I can say of any humor in the last film. Plus they actually did a more full on intense "wants to make sure the stories are getting told and out there so the people will buy them" Perry White throughout and it felt like a more fleshed out character. And again him raging while being looked at mostly by Jenny led to a couple of sort of amusing bits so... props there. I don't really think you needed the Pa Kent scene at all though. It just reminds the audience how terrible his advice and death was as yeah again if you wanted to be there for your son you shouldn't of let yourself get sucked into a tornado then you jerk.

    But again just because some things have improved doesn't mean others have. There are a couple more amusing bits here and there, some I mentioned already and others I didn't but for the most part this is still a very dark and dreary tone. I guess that's the style that Snyder's going for but honestly... until the action starts it's harder to get invested in what's happening. You get more characters but honestly this one has even more preaching in it then last time since from the get go you have "is he truly a force for good or will he destroy us all" over and over and over again? I mean they even at points have the news make reference to people who make Christ allergories all the time when certain things pop up... and this movie keeps on making them with how Lex makes Superman bow to him and Superman's death and floating in the middle of space and... really they keep hammering in this same point over and over again. And when we aren't focused on that or some of the newer characters it's a lot of tech and exposition talk. About decrypting specific files or obtaining permits to find groupings of Kryptonite or Luthor going on about speeches about the truths of America about the power of gods... it honestly gets really old. It's better here as there is more to distract from these talks but these were bits honestly that NO ONE even the people who enjoyed Man of Steel enjoyed so to see them constantly being pounded here is rather annoying. Plus though at least the time scale of this feels easier to follow as you only get little glimpses of say Bruce's past after the beginning of the movie, it does feel like there's no great time scale to know exactly how a lot of events converge right into the other. Suddenly Lois is reporting in Africia and then goes back home in the next couple of scenes. Suddenly Bruce Wayne is going to a party to try and get information on Lex's doing. Suddenly he and Wonder Woman meet up to swap files etc. Some of this could of been cut or flowed better. And honestly the opening itself though not as over done as the opening of the first movie feels overly gratitious. I guess again it's to hit home the mother connection the two have but for a story we all already know it goes on too long and weird things are focused at. Like the thief breaking the pearls on Martha Wayne's necklace which... seems weird for a thief to do wouldn't you want to make sure you snatch that if you're robbing someone for valuables? Plus yeah there's this stupidly ridiculously scene that gave me the biggest laugh in the movie: which granted is a dream but it still has the young Bruce Wayne falling down into the Bat cave and seeing bats around. Which would be find but then the bats suddenly start picking him up and spinning him around as light falls on him symbolically and... I'm sorry am I the only one who had to cover their mouth to prevent them from laughter out loud at that ridiculousness? Seriously that's how you want to open this super dark tale of two moralities clashing against one another... Bat symbolism? Yeah uh... doesn't work guys.

    Still that's a lot of comparisons to the original movie; what about what this one brought in? Well some of it did work. Honestly I do like this take on Batman being the more gruff and bitter "I've lost so much so late in my career that I feel like I've not only become more cold and detached but also that there's nothing I can do." Honestly if there was going to be more I would of liked to see bits of this Bruce Wayne's fight against crime and seeing things spiral down the path he's at now. Granted I'm sure some of that is being saved for other movies but seeing a bit now as that would of made the whole "I have done nothing but stomp out weeds that are going to bloom again anyway but taking down this god like being actually does some good" make more sense. I guess some people are going to have a problem with Bruce being manipulated by Lex to fight Clark Kent and say "Batman would never be that dumb" but considering how it's not like the two are shown having a full on meeting or planning and this is a more bitter out of touch Batman I can get that. And I do like actually how he does wind up taking down Superman: using streams of kryptonite gas to weaken him to beat him to the point where he could actually cut and kill him if they didn't have the whole mommy connection thing. I also liked his banter with Alfred which yeah a lot of it is in the trailers (a lot of this movie is in the trailers but I will try not to harp on that too much) but it still works and honestly I think this Alfred just wanting Bruce to stay noble and to fight the true enemy works more then how the Dark Knight series ended on. And you know though sort of stupid at first the whole Bat scarring leading to criminals offing those who were marked... honestly that's the sort of dark thing that works for a more out of touch Batman. One who I think doesn't have a "no kill" policy with how many criminals he takes and shoots out (and again especially in this more "realistic" universe... albeit one where Lois can heave a huge spear like 20 feet with ease but eh that's like a minor moment) so thus wouldn't mind getting them killed. And hey I even like his arc of having to realize how important Superman is and how much he failed him due to Superman dying in part because of him and wanting to now work with meta humans and others realizing upcoming further threats. Feels like a reverse honestly on the Dark Knight returns with Batman being the one brought in to take down what is considered the most dangerous threat... but having to realize what he needs to let go and what not. And when Luthor wasn't just quoting these monologues he was an enjoyable jerk. The bit with him and the jolly ranchers honestly felt like one of those things that could easily of fallen apart and feel cheesy when he's listing off demands but he made it work as he did pulling one over on Finch and pushing Lois to her almost death or realizing that if gods were all powerful they could be good implying their weaknesses and what not. He's not a great villain and honestly I still prefer Zod more as a threat but eh he was doing his own thing as Lex and will be remembered more at least then the last guy known for bedding old women and saying "WRONG" really loudly.

    Of course just like there are characters that really work here, there are ones that really don't and... yeah let's get the big one out of the way first: I reallllllllllllllly do not like Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman. I was trying to be fair and though her look didn't win me over and I didn't like her regular voice, I was waiting to see what she brought to the character and... man was I severely let down. One of my fears based on the trailer was she was going to play a sort of Catwoman role to Batman and be that "exotic and sexy mysterious figure whose alliance you aren't sure of cause of constantly switching but helps out in the end" and... I guess that technically didn't happen but that's only because she barely did anything until the end of the movie. I get that we're suppose to not know exactly what made her turn against humanity and decide to abandon them for a 100 years as that's being saved for the Wonder Woman movie (even though honestly it'd be preferable if it was the other way around but maybe that'd be too much like Captain America... even though setting Wonder Woman a 100 years in the past feels like they're already ripping off Steve Rogers playbook anyway) so I guess it makes sense she at first was only interested in getting back this photo that maybe ties her now to who she was then... but that just raises a bunch of questions honestly. I mean if she did this just to make sure she wasn't found out, why did she then leave the information to Bruce if she's still trying to have some sort of secret and wasn't going to get involved until she heard Doomsday approaching? Like why bother teasing if you aren't going to do anything afterward as doesn't fit her character? Also apparently she's the one who found info on the other members of the Justice League they were teasing who have like very quick cameos (Flash has two technical cameos with that and an earlier scene likely to set up a bit of him time traveling in Justice League to a dream sort of scene here for... I don't know whatever messed up reason in Zack Snyder's head) on files she gave to Bruce... but then when we saw her we saw her being shocked at the files? Maybe she was giving them for him to encrypt or something but again seems like something she sort of knew already if she even said at the end "they won't want to be found" so that still doesn't make any sense. Also though there were a couple of cool moments with her going up against Doomsday like slashing it and then using the Lasso of Truth... for her first appearance in a movie ever it felt lacking. What they should of done is find an excuse to have her more in an actual battle. Like say have her have a reason to fight Mercy Graves (who otherwise doesn't really have a point in this movie whatsoever. Say what you will about Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad but that film looks like it has a reason for her to be there so that's more dedication to the DCAU then this film got) to showcase more of her abilities. I also didn't care as much for the detached smary attitude as... you already have that with the other two of the Trinity you really need it with her? And yeah there's the voice and... man do I note like that voice. Seriously I get that Wonder Woman probably isn't American but I never imagined her to be so stilted in a "vague foreign" sound which I guess is going with Gadot's real voice and man was that a bad choice. Seriously I don't know why they went with it but any time she spoke in that it just annoyed me and granted she doesn't have the most lines but that makes me look forward a lot less to the upcoming Wonder Woman movie if I don't like her tone in this one. Plus for someone who spent a 100 years in non activity she sure comes around quickly to the fight again. Maybe if they played up the "well if there are more like Doomsday then I guess I have no choice but to come out of retirement" but no they didn't and it did annoy me. Same for other characters like Finch who... maybe would of had more of a point if she didn't die halfway through in the court room scene. Good on Lex for getting it over on her but otherwise she was just the "I'm trying to follow the law and do this efficentley oh ooops I was played I died" that just makes her feel useless and honestly she's listen even above Wonder Woman in terms of important new characters. Did Holly Hunter really need that much billing for her role here guys?

    Still one thing I will give credit for that I hinted at earlier was the death of Superman. Yeah that's a story in the comics that... was honestly never transferred over into other medium that well. Because you sort adapated it in Justice League but not with Doomsday and then the Doomsday DTV but that still didn't have much an impact as he came back in the end. I guess it's hinting at the very end he could be alive but... I'm hoping that they bring him back in Justice League and don't say he somehow came back from off screen between movies. As I know full well he'll survive but the fact they actually did kill off Superman and actually have him stay dead throughout the rest of the movie I give them some kudos for. I guess it's to be expected if they were following the Doomsday Story but... they didn't have to as it seemed like they were going more the Justice League Unlimited "he was created using some Kryptonina DNA severely mutated to become his own thing" sort of beast though... as impressive as his shut down powers were and some of the fight bits him being a brainless brute made the fight with him more lack luster then it should of. Still the actually sacrifice and death was handled well and again having that stick at least in this movie I will give them points for. And again it fits with the character of sacrificing himself for the sake of humanity to show just why he's considered the greatest: the lengths he'll go to protect humanity and that worked well. And honestly though the JL teasing wasn't too hot the actual shots of Batman fighting parademons and the end with bald lex talking about a force coming without showing it but those of us who know the comics know he's talking about Darkseid was effective so... kudos there.

    So yeah pretty mixed honestly. Some characters and bits worked, some didn't and honestly the action was kind of a step down (a lot of the stuff in the first half you can tell were cuts made for the R rated DVD special of this movie... and a lot of weird fades to black in general as well that kind of took you out of the movie) especially the hyped Batman vs Superman fight... which really didn't need to happen as honestly Superman could of just told Batman straight up "hey Lex Luthor's goading us to fight and kidnapped my mom. Seriously I'll turn myself over to you if you really want to after but please help her okay?" or something but... eh guess people needed to see something in live action Batman The Brave and the Bold and Dark Knight Returns DTV showcased better. Still this honestly flowed better and felt more like a comic book story then Man of Steel and some of the darkness worked in it's favor. I can see people not liking this as a lot of it is more of the same from Man of Steel but honestly a good chunk of it I see as an improvement. Not an epic one but I don't think it deserves a lot of the hate the critics give it if they are just hating for the sake of hating. I personally think it's... kind of okay. Middle of the road IMHO.
     
  10. ShadowBeast

    ShadowBeast Well-Known Member

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    Doomsday's design reminded me of the trolls from the LOTR/Hobbit films.
     
  11. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    I can't believe what this movie did to Jimmy Olsen.

    I mean, I have a lot of other issues with the film and the creative choices made (if only from a personal fan perspective), but the Jimmy thing and why Snyder did it (or how Snyder justifies anything in the movie) just...really leaves me ticked off :mad:.

    And that tie-in comic completely lied. Batman's not just more brutal, he actually is killing people!
     
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  12. Wonderwall

    Wonderwall Moderator
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    So Zack could have had Bryan Cranston as Lex Luthor based on an interview he gave. What a maroon!
     
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  13. Troy Troodon

    Troy Troodon Well-Known Member

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    Not surprising, since WETA worked on this film.
     
  14. Troy Troodon

    Troy Troodon Well-Known Member

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    So, just got back from watching, "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.. more like, Yawn of Justice if you ask me... or Dawn of Purgatory, or rather "Void of Justice!" Yeah as you can tell I'm not very happy about this movie... which is rather appropriate since this is one of the most joyless superhero stories I've seen, even more so than it's predecessor, "Man of Steel".

    So... here's the story... or wait, it's not there, I can't really find it, namely because THERE IS NO COHERENT STORY! Seriously, what story is this trying to tell, or for that matter, what genre is it?! Sci-Fi? Horror? Thriller? Well for one it certainly isn't an, Action-Adventure Fantasy!

    So, basically this story takes place 18 months after the events of MoS, and in prologue, apparently Bruce Wayne works in Metropolis... since when?! And a bunch of people he knew died since then... it would be rather tear jerking if we knew who these people were.

    And in epilogue, Lois Lane and who I assume to be Jimmy Olsen were held captive by terrorists in Africa... and Jimmy (If he is) was killed... and a whole other people were killed... oh and then Superman came, he rescued Lois then flew the terrorist leader through wall, after wall, after wall... and he says he didn't kill anyone?! I find that rather hard to believe!

    Meanwhile, back in Gotham (Cue Bat-Theme) Batman's been branding criminals, and EVERYTHING IS FLASHY! Seriously, I felt like I was getting a seizure from that scene!

    So anyway, Lex Luthor invites Bruce Wayne to his party, where both our leads meet, and Bruce goes downloading data from LexCorp files, which were taken by Diana Prince... oh yeah she's in the movie.

    Anyway, in his spare time, Superman does go saving people (Which I like) but what ruins it is all this pretentious commentary by actual talkshow hosts and speculative science theorists, including Neil Degrasse Tyson, and really it's just pandering to Clark as it is to me! (I feel ya, man)

    Some time later, Lex hires one of Bruce's employees to be taken to the senate to face Superman... and he explodes, and everyone dies! (DCCU in a nutshell much?)

    Afterwards there's more Superman mopping, and Batsy's having nightmare fuel (Or rather the audience is) with a corrupted Superman ruling the earth in servitude to Apokolips I presume?... Oh and Flash stops by to say hello... in the most IN YOUR FACE WAY POSSIBLE! He came out of a wormhole to tell Bruce about Lois, then disappears... do they know each other?!

    So after that Bats is hightailing LexCorp lackeys-- and is just DESTROYING ALL OF THEM! Yeah, Batman KILLS in this movie! What the hell, Zack Snyder?! Superman stops him, just so Bats can bring up that quote of his in the trailers.

    Anyway, Diana returns the thumb drive to Bruce, and it turns out she's been in this world sometime before both our leads have... which beckons how or why nobody else knew about the awesome that is WW, but whatever.

    (I honestly don't remember a whole lot else about the film so I'm just gonna talk about the stuff I do remember)

    Luthor acquires the Kryptonian ship, and implants Zod's corpse into some chamber I don't know.

    Anyway, he tracks down Martha Kent and uses her to bribe Superman into killing Batman (Why?!) And so the two fight, Supes tries to be reasonable while Bats is being ego-mesenteric and is just lunging for his throat!! Seriously dude, calm the fridge down!!

    Anyway, Lois conveniently follows them and informs Batman that he's only trying to save his mom, Martha... GET IT! Because Martha was his mom's name!!

    So anyway, Batman tracks down Martha, and I swear he does kill people and not just knock them out!

    So after that "Brilliant" plan failed, Lex awakens Doomsday!

    Superman flies Doomsday up to the direction of a government warhead. I'd say they're trying to pay homage to the Dark Knight Returns or Death of Superman, but honestly I don't see the connection.

    Anyway (Get ready for this)... Wonder Woman shows up! And it turns out, records of Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg were always stocked in the LexCorp database... huh?!

    So, yeah Superman flies back down to help, and we get out money shot, and it's an all out battle royal against DoomZod! Incidentally (I say loosely) the only weapon that could kill Doomz would of course be the kryptonian spear! Superman sacrifices himself to slay the monster, but not without getting himself killed with a bone projection though the chest.

    So yeah, more mopping depressing time. Luthor goes to Jail, Bats threatens lex about something (I couldn't really make out what either were saying) and Luthor yells out "He Knows! He's Coming!" Which I guess is supposed to be hinting Darkseid but... Oh forget it.

    Anyway, Clark Kent lies six feet under, and now Bruce and Diana go out looking for "The Others"

    Wow! Just Wow, I never thought this would be worse than Man of Steel... shoot it's even worse than Fant4stic!!

    This story... so joyless... what is the point of this thing! I'm sorry, but I just don't get this movie, is it trying to kill DC?! Is DC trying to piss everyone off so it can die?! Actually I wouldn't be surprised since death is everything that is, "Dawn of Justice" which really makes no sense as a title!

    There is no arc to the characters, and there's not coherent synopsis in all this!

    And the characters are about as dimensional as the paper at the Daily Planet, only less informative than the print itself!

    And characters like Jimmy Olsen, and even Mercy Graves are unceremoniously killed off! And okay, where's the real Lex Luthor, seriously, I don't know what character Jessie Eisenberg is playing, but he's not Lex Luthor, his so forced and corny I have a hard time believing he's putting a decant act. Even Gene Hackman was closer to the actual character than this hipster! If he were the Toyman, or even the Riddler sure I'd buy it, but even then his performance isn't even enjoyable, he feels more like a strawman of a comic book villain.

    .... And then there's Batman... Batman SHOULDN'T kill! Superman shouldn't kill, and Batman shouldn't kill... Superheroes in general... just should not kill!

    And I know some of you are gonna bring up example in the comment section to counter argue, but when I say it's "In General" or if it's in my opinion, you should know what I mean!

    Jeez, it's not even a, "So bad it's good" kind of movie, the imagery and criteria of this story is specifically intended to be both shocking and offensive to the audience... and it is, but not in a good way!


    Zack Snyder, really does not get the characters! Nor do his script writers, especially David S. Goyer! This is not a superhero movie, it feels more like a sick joke, a poorly written satire or parody at best... or worst depending on how you view it.

    And because of this I absolutely refuse to watch any more of these movies later, though if I do, chances are I'll be more and more displeased with it. At least when Alan Moore, and even Frank Miller did this with superheroes it was commentary on the media! And you know there's something wrong when Jessica Jones, a much... much darker superhero story is more elevating than Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman!!!

    *Sigh* I have been a fan of DC since I was 5 years old, and to see these icons portrayed in such a callous and abysmal point of direction is not only offensive to me, but to the mythology of Superheros in general, from either DC or Marvel, or even an independent publication.

    And in the end, what has this project accomplished?! What more can be said with DC when all is said and done?! Well if anyone knows the answer to that, be sure to let me know. In the mean time I'm just gonna read some good o'l DC comics, and watch some episodes of the DC animated shows.
     
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  15. Frontier

    Frontier Moderator
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    Troy, while I understand and agree with pretty much all your points, I would say that you could at least give Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman a chance, because I think a lot of the issues you have with the movie can be traced back to Snyder's directorial influence. The DCEU is all about "creative vision" and that's especially evident in how Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman have ended up, because they're Zack Snyder movies with comic elements and characters channeled through Zack Snyder's lens or interpretation of the characters.

    SS and WW both have different directors and, if the trailers, what we've been told, and what we've seen so far hold true, they should be very different from what Snyder has done in Man of Steel and here. If anything, I'd recommend just avoiding all the films directed by Zack Snyder :sweat:.
     
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    #15 Frontier, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  16. brickrrb2

    brickrrb2 Active Member

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    With how absolutely horrible the movie was and with how bleak and depressing the characters and overall universe is in the films, The only thing to do now is to Scrap Everything and Start all over and BEG Joss Whedon or ANYONE who Actually KNOWS These characters to do them right
     
  17. superspidey2257

    superspidey2257 Your Friendly Neighbourhood Forum User

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    I don't want to be a marvel fanboy.... but im going to be a marvel fanboy.
    this movie was meant to hype me up for justice league
    and it succeeded.
    but the rest of the movie made civil war look better and better compared to batman vs superman
    it took way too long to get the actual fight and there were way too many plots going on at once,I know a lot about dc comics but this movie even had me confused at times!
    and people were right when they said trailer 2 spoiled all the good parts of the movie because it pretty much did.
    I really really hope suicide squad does not end up like this and its only made my hopes for a future justice league get lower.
    the one good thing about this movie though was definitley the fight and the justice league setup
    heres my thoughts on the characters
    Flash
    he is basically dc's version of quicksilver from x-men days of future past and his character left me hungry for more, bring on the solo flash movie!
    Aquaman
    something tells me he will be the kind that needs to co-operate the most with in future movies, doesnt seem like hes a fan of earth dwellers yet.
    Cyborg
    that scene was just disturbing... but an interesting setup for the character regardless
    Wonder Woman
    basically a set photo for the upcoming movie with a few filters chucked on but i'll take it.
    the fight was amazing and really did have some elements from tdkr but i think what would have completed it is if batman recited his speech to superman saying "I want you to know the man who beat you." wish it could have been longer though.
    if they remade batman v superman, I think it needs to not focus on one thing for way too long so it gives us even timing and doesnt make us fall asleep listening to the same topic for a whole hour which is what made this movie "not fun"
    overall
    its a 7 and a half out of ten from me.
     
  18. DarkAngel

    DarkAngel Lord Vader

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    Yeah, same here.

    It seemed certain people were going to react that way. I remember being somewhat surprised when I saw what he was doing in the trailers, but I liked it. For me, it was different in a good way, and it provided something lighter, in a way, which I did appreciate.

    I might have liked the first third to a half of the movie best. I liked the buildup, the split time between Batman and Superman, and mostly enjoyed the pacing and chance to experience their world.

    To a question posed above, as far as what Batman might have learned from Superman, I'd say it was no longer looking at him in detached fashion as a "god-like being", alien from another planet, or "meta-human". Martha created a human connection between the two, such that Bruce now saw him as Clark, as a son on the verge of losing his mother. If I remember Alfred's words from early in the movie correctly, about the feeling of powerlessness turning people cruel...this is certainly an aspect of Batman, that he is in variation incarnations in a sense about control, preparation, looking ahead to potential threats, such that he does gain some "power" to combat that feeling. After years of fighting in Gotham, and with this new emergence on Earth, it did feel like he was slipping over that edge. I think he saw what Alfred was talking about with regard to what he almost did (and probably also recognized unintended consequences...another mother, another Martha, would have lost her life), and turned to combating powerlessness in another way, but uniting and depending upon the "meta-humans".

    With regard to the World's Greatest Detective being fooled by Lex, I don't really see it that way. Take Lex out of the picture, and Batman still ends up in that place of being ready to take down Superman. Bruce's reaction to the Metropolis tragedy had nothing to do with Lex. Bruce's conclusion regarding Superman's destructive potential and the future potential of being a threat had nothing to do with Lex. The two reached the same conclusion regarding Superman, even if it was influenced by different past experiences and emotions. If Lex had just offered the kryptonite to Batman, I think the latter takes it and uses it. The opening was there with Batman committed to stopping Superman, and Lex made sure Superman showed up to face potential defeat. When it did come to Batman changing his mind, it had nothing to do with realizing Lex wanting Superman dead. After all, Bruce wanted the same thing. It was, as mentioned above, a shift in how he saw Superman, seeing the human face of Clark.

    I'm watching the end of Man of Steel right now, and it's interesting after seeing BvS to see Zod talking about his soul being taken from him, how he's going to take the life of every human on the planet, and Superman calling him a "monster."
     
  19. Troy Troodon

    Troy Troodon Well-Known Member

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    If I were a parent, and If I were taking my kid to watch a superhero movie... AND if it were between Deadpool, which is rated R, and Batman V Superman-- I'd honestly take my take to the R-rated superhero movie since it least it's true to the character, and is more respectful to comics, and it's a lot more fun!

    Call me a bad parent for doing so if you must, but at least it embraces the absurdity and childish joy of comics than the Watchmen knockoff Zack Snyder vomited!
     
  20. DarkAngel

    DarkAngel Lord Vader

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
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    Really didn't like Deadpool much, and doubt I'll see it again. Found BvS to be far better.

    Saw it again this morning with friends, and I continue to appreciate it.
     

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