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Discussion in 'The DC Comics Animation Forum' started by Yojimbo, Jul 23, 2016.
A reasonable assumption!
One potential continuity complication could be Nightwing's location. If the movie has him still operating in Gotham City, then it would suggest that the timeframe takes place before JLU's "Grudge Match." That episode implied he had already moved to Bludhaven.
Oh, totally!! Hey, y'know, if you're into the whole timeline thing, well, go for it. But to me it's a fictional world, and sometimes in continuity, the creators make mistakes.
Maybe he swings by every now and then.
For me small continuity errors would really only be an issue if Bruce Timm never mentioned it fitting into the DCAU, and I had to squeeze it in myself. Then continuity errors would be fatal to it being in the same universe. But since Bruce has basically said that it is, at least to him, well, it's fictional, and sometimes continuity errors happen. I won't think of it as a separate continuity just for that. Hopefully that made sense.
Melissa Rauch was suggested by James Tucker after WHV wanted to do a stunt casting for marketing. Liu admits it took him awhile to get what Timm wanted.
Though one could argue it is post-Grudge Match because he's still sporting the mullet in GM whereas in this movie, its gone. I like the idea that he goes between Bludhaven and Gotham periodically depending on how he and Batman - similar to how Barbara mentioned Bruce and Tim tried to mend fences several times so them working together was off-on-on, too.
I recall Booster starting naming off al these other members never introduced on JLU, so the movie is possibly one of those events that's post-JLU but before the ROTJ flashback. Makes the latter a bit more tragic that Harley couldn't stay reformed for long.
To be honest, I am not sure if it is worth trying to cram ROTJ and Batman Beyond into the main DCAU timeline anymore. This movie does seem to be post-JLU, and the fact that Nightwing seems to be several years older implies he and Batman never had the traumatic breakup that happens in BB's backstory (he still had the mullet in the flashback).
How old was Tim supposed to be when Joker kidnapped him in ROTJ? I have heard estimates of thirteen or fourteen. He was around ten at the start of TNBA, so that makes the timeline for the Joker Jr. incident rather short. Meanwhile you have the following tidbits from Static Shock and Justice League that seem to contradict Batman Beyond:
1) Static finds out that Robin/Tim joined the (Teen) Titans at some point, and he apparently stays with them for a while. Its not 100% locked in, but it seems to me Tim would be too old by the end of JLU for the Joker Jr. incident to happen. And I am almost certain the Joker is still alive at the end of JLU, that would be something too huge to not even hint at.
2) Bruce already seems to have broken things off with Barbara by the time of JL season one, definitely by the time of JLU. Yet he still seems to be on good terms with Dick in the new movie. Presumably that uncomfortable series of events that shattered the Bat Family in the comic book spin-off of BB never came to past.
3) The biggest one (minor spoilers):
Yeah, that's a more problematic issue. I think I rationalized it back then as, he was in his late teens during the BB flashback but didn't really have a growth spurt until his college years. I have plenty of friends like that. Even my dad. But I think if you compare the TNBA design with this one in the flashback, he's slightly taller?
Didn't Dick move past it? Otherwise he wouldn't work with Bruce during TNBA.
Tim was a little taller, but not by much. Barbara had to hunch over to hold him, and she is not that tall in the DCAU. We saw Tim as an adult, and he was about average in height, maybe only an inch shorter than normal. He was basically a kid barely into adolescence in the ROTJ flashback. JLU seems to end years after TNBA, at least three but more like five or even six. All I am saying is that it is really pushing it.
As for the second point... Ho boy, I guess you never heard of the plot point introduced in the Batman Beyond comics?
That's the short version at any rate. Also remember it took Tim a year to recover from his injuries before trying to return to crime-fighting. The whole timeline gets way too convoluted to easily reconcile. At least the way it ends with JLU. This new movie makes it seem even more in doubt since Bruce and Dick still seems to be on good terms and Dick is visibly older, much older than he appears in the events I described above.
Yeah. Tim's age is definitely an issue, I doubt they were thinking of JL or JLU at the time of making ROTJ or BB.
That sounds awful. Glad I never read it.
Yeah, when I did my own take on the timeline - I decided for it to work was series to overlap like BTAS and STAS and TNBA and JL - for it to make a semblance of sense. lol.
Despite the fact that episodes such as Future Shock or Epilogue cement that the events occur in universe? That's an interesting take.
While BB 2.0 take some many cues from I'm the DCAU it still shares continuity with Adam Beechen's run on the character. In his run it's very much made clear Joker is still active up to soon beforehand Bruce retires. ROTJ states it's flashback was almost 40 years ago, Rebirth has a 20 year gap after his retirement. That's another 15-20 years unaccounted for. Those comics aren't in both continuity with the DCAU.
Tim Drake's official bio from the TNBA website and Rise of Sin Tzu manual state he was 13 when he joined the bat-family. The screenplay for ROTJ states he's 51 by time of the movie. If we take the "almost 40 years" as between 35-38 years we can assume depending on when his birthday fell in the year he could have been intended to be anywhere from the original 13 up to 17 years old when the Joker Jr. Incident occurred. However, in the years to come, the show runners (allegedly Bruce Timm, confirmed Dwayne McDuffie) have stated that it occurs post JLU and as a result one could assume that the models used were the ones they had on hand at the time since they weren't even aware they'd be doing JL/JLU yet. With that in mind, Evidence from Batman Adventures: The Lost Years puts Tim joining the Bat-family in 99 and evidence throughout JL/JLU places those series between 2000-2004 so once again depending on Tim's birthdate he could be 17/18 in ROTJ at the youngest.
I'm not sure how or why on earth of these affects the other. Static runs roughly from late 2000 to early 2002/3 if i remembers correctly. I'm not sure how much that matters to what you're trying to say though because I don't understand your point. Once again though, Future Shock confirms the events of ROTJ so the point seems moot regardless.
I'm not sure where you get the impression that anything with Barbara has even had appended by JL. The only thing I can think of that even hints at it is Maybe when he's talking to Wonder Woman and states dating in the team is a bad idea, but I think that was more due to Jon mad Shayera's relationship and nothing to do with batgirl.
I thought OAFT made it very clear that the version of the future they were in at that point was a corruption of Chronos' making, which is why future Bruce doesn't remember the events present Bruce is experiencing. I'm not sure how you could possibly imagine this means BB is non canon when it's explained that this is a corrupted timeline done away with by the end of the episode. Once again, it seems like you're forgetting Epilogue as well being part of the JLU canon, and the fact that episode makes reference to the events of ROTJ.
Edit: sorry for grammar mistakes mistakes. My phone's autocorrect hasn't been randomly changing words and while I think I caught most of them I'm sure I missed some.
Another factor to consider with if this movie is canon or not is if the digital tie-in comics will help or hinder. Speaking of, I think the first issue releases tomorrow.
You make a lot of good points, and you seem to have a better grip of certain elements of the background story even I was not aware of. Still, there was nothing that happened in Epilogue that hinged on ROTJ happening. Terry could just have easily become Batman even without the events of the movie taking place. I know the current comics have nothing to do with the DCAU, but it has been established in multiple reboots that Terry will almost inevitably become Batman at some point in the future of the DC universe. Things do not have to happen in a certain way for it to reach a similar outcome. I realize this is not going to be a popular opinion, because me stating that certain events in BB getting retconned out of existence by later DCAU projects seems to imply there is a problem with BB as a series. That is not my intention, I just noticed a lot of the stories that came out post-ROTJ make the timeline for the Joker's death hard to fit in based on what is stated.
You point out Tim is thirteen when he becomes Robin. This makes a lot of sense because all of his Voice Actors (excluding Scott Menville and Shane Sweet) were thirteen or fourteen when they portrayed the role. I held back on saying this because I thought the only way the timeline could work is if Tim was much younger than that when introduced. You admit that Tim must be at least eighteen when Joker kidnapped him in ROTJ, but for some reason is still portrayed as much younger. You would say they drew him that way to be recognizable to the audience, but they show him as a 50-something man as well in Terry's time, so why not age his appearance in the flashback as well? And the most probable answer is the production staff did not think of it, but it still creates a plothole. The idea of a college-aged eighteen, nineteen, or even twenty year-old Tim being tortured does not quite have the edge to it of little kid Tim being tortured, which was what Timm/Dini were going for in the story we were shown. Something does not add up at that point.
As for Barbara, you are right. I took Batman's comment and put it in a context that may or may not be relevant. I first read it from someone else online, and it made a great deal of sense to me, but that is not the same as it being true. And I know Barbara was even supposed to appear in JLU before the Bat Embargo killed that idea. The whole background relationship remains a major sticking point, and I doubt we will ever get a clear explanation of what happened there. The Batman Beyond comics were the most info we got on what caused the Bat Family to split up, but as you said they are not canon at this point, and probably never were.
And OAFT did change things. Bruce now had new knowledge of future events, however small, of things he did not know before that story. Even trying to consciously ignore them, things were altered (butterflies and all that). We don't know how much that could change the timeline, but it does open a window to explain why certain events in JLU do not seem to be leading towards BB as we knew it. Going back to the beginning of my post, that does not equal Terry never becoming Batman, or most of the events of BB happening as we saw them.
Static Shock... is the hardest one to explain away. But it is also the one with the biggest continuity issues in the DCAU. Not to be glib, but Virgil started out referencing Superman as Clark Kent before the show was retroactively tied to the DCAU. I re-watched Future Shock before posting this, and Bruce mentions Static traveled more than 40 years into the future, and this is apparently sometime during JL season 1 or season 2. Terry later mentions in a nervous tone Robin is a civilian, which I guess could be a reference to all the unsettling things that happened in ROTJ. And Tim is still shown as a little kid even though he must be around 16 at this point. Unfortunately, Static Shock is a show that both supports and undermines theories about DCAU canon because it has so many contradicting elements. You can take what you want from it to support just about any argument.
To tie this to the new movie, we will have to look over what comes up in it carefully to see where it lies in the timeline. But that Dick seems to be in his mid to late 20's in it and that ROTJ has not happened yet, and Booster Gold making a cameo talking about new JL members that were not in the show seems to imply this is at least a few months after Destroyer, but it could easily be a year or more later. I mean if it starts getting to the point where Tim is old enough to legally drink before the Joker get his hands on him, something is off as regards to ROTJ, regardless of what Timm or McDuffie said in the past.
When confronting Bruce in one of the black and white scenes Terry mentions the Joker using Cadmus nanotech on Tim Drake. Seems like an obvious ROTJ reference to me.
That's not what I said. I said they used the models they had on hand. They didn't know that they weren't going to get to do JL/JLU and probably didn't expect to do anything more that would explore that version of the Joker or Robin, as a result at the time there was no need to age his model because they simply didn't anticipate it. However, in subsequent appearances (SS, MOTB) he's obviously aged up. That doesn't mean the flashback didn't happen, it means the models aren't accurate due to retcon.
I can agree with this to a point. The showrunners have stated before that the shows run on "peanuts time" "simpsons time" and/or "Dick Tracy" time in that essentially certain characters stay the same age despite passage of time in universe. If you look into it you can find multiple sources for those statements. It's dumb and I hate it and has made it very hard for me to nail down chronology in static shock.
I'm still not sure you quite grasp the concept of what was going on in OAFT.
JLU Batman = Bruce seen in Batman Beyond =/= Future Bruce from OAFT
Once it was tied in that scene was removed from subsequent airings of that episode and IIRC removed from the versions on home releases as to not raise continuity issues. the show has a lot of other goofs with continuity, but that's specific one was retconned.
He doesn't have to be 16. JL runs from mid 2000 to mid 2002. Depending on when this occurs within the run of JL (as i said Static is hard to pin down) he could be between 13-16 and Asbell stated earlier, they did age up his model in Static. Not by much, but there's definite differences. By my count, ROTJ occurs in 2042 most likely so the "over 40 years" mention makes sense.
Idk, it hasn't it's problems but I wouldn't go that far.
I can agree with this sentiment to a degree, but my opinion lies in the inverse of your conclusion. Timm stated during the movies comiccon panel that he thinks of it as a continuation of the DCAU but that he didn't go through all the episodes to make sure there aren't blatant contradictions and said he's leaving it to the fans. That being said, I think it's much more reasonable to throw out this movie from continuity than ROTJ. We already see a few troubling things: Dick in Gotham when he should be in Bludhaven, Hal Jordan Green Lantern art in Superbabes despite the fact he was only ever a Green Lantern as a result of a timeline shift, the potential timeline problems with ROTJ, etc. im waiting to see the movie to pass final judgement, but I don't see the point of throwing out confirmed canon for something that the creator essentially says "meh, maybe"
Since when? Loren Lester, for example, was born in 1960--though he was also voicing a Dick Grayson who was about 17 years old or so. Going back farther, Casey Kasem was born in 1932.
Sorry to cherry-pick, but that passage just stood out to me!
I don't know specifically what you are referring to here, so forgive me if I provide the wrong answer here. Loren being in his early 30s when voicing an 18-year old Robin (I think he starts off the series in college) is less of a stretch because you are talking about an adult voicing a somewhat younger adult. But that they repeatedly brought in teenagers to voice Tim so that he sounded like a teenager implied he was not a 10-year old. That was the only point I was trying to make. I know sometimes people have late growth spurts, but Tim starts out at the beginning of his teenage years and is not getting any younger. When does he reach his adult height? When he is twenty-five? I guess the real problem is we are trying to apply real world logic to a cartoon based off of one of the most convoluted comic book continuities in existence. I know it is a losing battle, but I still try anyway despite the futility of it.
Okay...I'm not sure why you are confused; I included the quote to which I was responding. However, more specifically, you wrote: "...all of his [Robin's?] Voice Actors (excluding Scott Menville and Shane Sweet) were thirteen or fourteen when they portrayed the role." That statement--if you referring to any of the Robins--is demonstrably false, as I indicated. Now, if you meant only Tim Drake then I misunderstood and apologize. I wasn't aware of any instance of Scott Menville voicing Tim.
I just wanted to point out that Scott Menville did not ever voice Tim Drake, he voiced Dick Grayson's Robin on "Teen Titans," and was 32 at the time.
I have seen at least one source that indicates that Menville has voiced Tim Drake in an episode of Teen Titans Go! (though I had not seen it before my earlier post), not that Wikipedia is very reliable.
Yeah, there was an episode with a bunch of different Robins. "The Best Robin" - Menville definitely voiced Drake.
Actually, even outside of Go!, Menville did voice Tim as he did the voice of Robin in Rise of Sin Tzu.
*turns in DCAU fan club member card*