4Kids Talkback: Endgame - The 4Kids Discussion V11

Discussion in 'Saturday Morning Forever!' started by D Dubbs, Aug 26, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. D Dubbs

    D Dubbs Wish Upon A Star

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,880
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    The hourglass counting down to the final hour has begun. In March 2011, NAS and TV Tokyo filed complaints claiming that 4Kids had abused the terms of the Yu-Gi-Oh! license and wished to terminate their agreement. 4Kids won a temporary victory in June, granting them a stay on the license until the claims can be validated one way or another in court. The trial is mere days away now. 4Kids has stated that their ability to continue operating as a company could very well be determined by the outcome. Will 4Kids pull through or will they fall? The endgame is now.

    Important links:

    www.toonzai.com
    www.4KidsTV.com
    4Kids' YouTube page
    4Kids' Hulu page
    www.toonzaki.com
    Toonzai's Facebook page
    Toonzaki's Facebook page
     
  2. Philmister978

    Philmister978 Alvight, you vin

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,110
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    Personally, I think 4Kids has run their course, They don't have Pokemon or Ninja Turtles. They most likely will lose the Yu-Gi-Oh license. They've played Sonic X ad nausium, and quite possibly, won't be getting another Anime series (Heck, I haven't heard squat about Tai-Chi Chasers since they announced the license. Perhaps the company just gave up on it).

    Really, They're going nowhere fast at all. Just throw in the towel and give up guys. Besides, we'd still have Bandai and FUNimation (even though they rarely air anything on TV anyways nowadays), as well as Nelvana.
     
  3. FFmax

    FFmax Pangoro's Bizarre Adventure

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    3,906
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Actually I saw several promos for it during Yu-gi-oh, the show is coming in fall, but that's probably if 4kids wins this case first.
     
  4. 4KidsWillRise

    4KidsWillRise New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    I hate to bring you bad news, but the end-game is not near at all. I am a 4Kids Investor, and one of only a few people in the world who bought a significant amount of shares since this dispute and bankrutpcy started.

    You too, could have been in a great position like me if you had read all of the bankruptcy material. If you had, you would know the following:

    1) Even if the Judge rules that TV Tokyo had a right to terminate the agreement, 4Kids still gets all of the current YuGiOh shows for another two years, just not the five years in the contract. The only change is that they would not get Zexal.

    2) The amount that TV Tokyo sued for is already mitigated by the one million good faith payment that 4Kids made to TV Tokyo in March while they were negotiating. It is further mitigated by the fact that over 2 million of the dispute is from tax certificates that TV Tokyo said 4Kids never sent. Even if that is true, the true tax liability that TV Tokyo would have suffered would be just a fraction of that total amount (since they don't pay 100 percent tax). And that is even if the claims are true. 4Kids disputes that.

    3) TV Tokyo acted against the Judges orders at the Licensing Expo in June. 4Kids has documented this. This will further effect the trial results.

    I could go on, but the most important thing is that TV Tokyo has admitted in writing that 4Kids gets all of the current shows for another two years, and that is if it is ruled that the termination attempt was valid. TV Tokyo has also admitted in writing and in court that if the Judge finds that TV Tokyo has no right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, then 4Kids could, and should, sue for damages. This is documented. 4Kids has a lot of leverage here, and will gain a ton one way or the other.

    In the past, when parties are negotiating in good faith, courts have held that terminations are not valid. 4Kids did not breach any specific performance with TV Tokyo at all. They simply had a major disagreement about the audit results. Therefore they negotiated in good faith to settle the disagreement.

    When 4Kids saw that TV Tokyo was using this disagreement to attempt to get out of their contract with 4Kids, and also in order to pitch the new Zexal series to someone else at the licensing expo, 4Kids did the only thing it could do, they filed Bankruptcy.

    Yes, it is a big week next week, but the absolute worst that will happen is the judge will find that TV Tokyo is allowed to get out of the contract and that 4Kids owes a small amount in disputed payments. Even if that happend, 4Kids is still in business and can use every single current YuGiOh for at least two years. 4Kids still has 6 million in cash and zero debt, yet the company is selling for well under 3 million in current market cap.

    There are many major positive outcomes, as well. If the termination is found to be invalid, which it likely will be, then 4Kids gets all current YuGiOh for the duration of the five year contract, and they also get the rights to Zexal for that time. Plus, they would be able to sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination and that will be worth many millions, since this Bankruptcy has cost 4Kids a lot.

    4Kids is in the driver's seat here. There could easily be an agreement today or Monday before the trial starts. TV Tokyo has much to lose if they proceed with the trial and it is found that they had no right to terminate an iron clad agreement where there was no breach of specific performance.

    The wise thing to do would have been to buy shares for five months like I did. I am going to make a boatload of money in the next week. You could have done the same thing if you were paying attention.

    4Kids is just clearing the decks. They will either be sold for many times the current market cap, or they will come out of this bankrutpcy a much more lean fighting machine, as they will be able to knock out some accounts payable in the process. They have no secured debt, so they are in great shape with their 6 million in cash and streamlined operations going forward (if they don't sell).

    The facts are squarely on the side of 4Kids. I suspect that heavy negotiations are going on as we speak, between TV Tokyo and 4Kids, as I noticed about two days ago that 4KidsEntertainment.com is offline (and still is). This would seem to be part of the negotiation process and a tactic by 4Kids, since 4Kids.tv and other related websites have not been effected.

    Something big is happening, and it involves me making a lot of money.
     
  5. Philmister978

    Philmister978 Alvight, you vin

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,110
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
    Chalk that up for not watching TV that often then.
     
  6. D Dubbs

    D Dubbs Wish Upon A Star

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,880
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Well, if true, that certainly puts an interesting twist on things. Some of that has been posted here before such as the fact that 4Kids filed bankruptcy to implement the stall and that it wasn't a monetary issue on their side since they have more cash then debt. But still, a lot of it is pretty interesting, like them holding onto previous Yu-Gi-Oh! series for another two years. I also hadn't heard about TV Tokyo promoting Zexal at Las Vegas, despite the judge's orders. However, 4Kids originally held the license through 2015, so where does the two years come from? Do you have a link to the bankruptcy material?
     
  7. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    38,211
    Location:
    In a Dream World
    I thought that they wouldn't have any rights to anything Yu-Gi-Oh! related since they would no longer have the license to the franchise if these claims are accurate. TV Tokyo probably wouldn't want them to gain any money from either the previous series they have dubbed or any merchandise revenue if they had the chance to give the rights to the whole franchise to another company. The whole lawsuit is to take away the license to the franchise and since 4Kids technically has Zexal at the moment, I thought it would include every series.

    I'll admit that TV Tokyo was in the wrong legally to do that, although I personally can't blame them for trying to give the rights to Zexal to another company when they clearly don't want anything to do with 4Kids anymore, but I'm not sure if it would significantly effect the trial's results. Especially when I was under the impression that this first part to the trial was determine if 4Kids did violate their contract with TV Tokyo/NAS or not.

    I think I only remember the statement about the judge saying that TV Tokyo doesn't have the right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, although I think that was in regards to prior to the trial. Would you happen to have a link to where it says this in writing since I can't seem to remember most of the other statements here for sure, especially the whole part of 4Kids still having access to the other three series for two years?

    While it's true that they could sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination if the claims are proven inaccurate, I'm really don't think that 4Kids has a good chance of coming out of this case as the winner. If they knew that they didn't violate their contract, then why did they stall the trial by filing for bankruptcy? I think that they could have brought up TV Tokyo trying to license Zexal when they aren't legally allowed to do that to the courts without going into bankruptcy. While this might be kind of a minor detail, they don't have any Yu-Gi-Oh! videos or even Yu-Gi-Oh! characters on their wall paper design of their new YouTube page. If they thought that they were going to win or that they didn't violate their contract, they probably would have put up those videos and have a picture of Atem, probably the most well-known Yu-Gi-Oh! main character, along with the other main characters from their different shows. To me, that makes me believe that they either know that they aren't going to win or at least they don't want to take the chance of going through the effort to put up videos and creating a new layout for their page only to take them down.

    Besides, I think that 4Kids has more to lose in this case than TV Tokyo. They're generally a stable company with a lot of money thanks to the shows they have and they deals they have with other U.S. distributors for those shows. In comparison, 4Kids is in bankruptcy, have few shows under their belt that they actually control, let alone make money off of and if they're proven guilty, they may have to pay TV Tokyo for the legal fees as well as the money they owed them in the first place, which I still don't think that 4Kids can afford to do at this point.

    I've never been really interested in trying my luck with buying stocks. It's a tad too risky for me with the little money I do have.

    I don't know who would be interested in buying 4Kids at this point. Without their Yu-Gi-Oh! series, they don't have a lot of shows that would interest most buyers. The only one that could attract some companies might be Sonic X, which isn't that much to begin with. Granted, they do have some non-television related properties that might interest some buyers, but after being caught up in this legal situation, I'm not sure if many companies would be up for buying 4Kids. I think it's more likely that the company will not be able to get out of bankruptcy, sadly resulting in more people losing their jobs.
     
  8. 4KidsWillRise

    4KidsWillRise New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    After the original bankruptcy filing there were several motions made by both parties. TV Tokyo wanted to pitch the Zexal series at the licensing expo, and 4Kids obviously had a problem with that.

    The Judge ruled that the bankruptcy filing put a hold on not only the attempted termination of current YuGiOh series, but also Zexal, and therefore ruled that TV Tokyo would not be allowed to pitch the show at the expo.

    TV Tokyo had already secured a booth for that very purpose. TV Tokyo was ordered to not pitch the show, yet facts have come out that will show that even though they didn't have an official booth, they still did not follow the Judge's order, as they actively tried to undermine what 4Kids was doing. This is huge.

    Before the Judge ruled on whether TV Tokyo would be allowed at the expo, she (female Judge) heard motions and arguements from both sides. Part of 4Kids arguement was that by having TV Tokyo at the licensing expo, this would cause immediate and irreparable harm to 4Kids.

    TV Tokyo's argument was that there was already a "wind-down" agreement in the original five year contract, and that therefore 4Kids has the rights to all other YuGiOh shows for that period, anyways, and therefore, the harm that 4Kids would suffer by having TV Tokyo pitch the show was not irreparable, or even harm that should be prevented from happening.

    The Judge ruled in favor of 4Kids on this, yet TV Tokyo will be proven to have disobeyed the direct orders from the Judge concerning the expo. It is a huge deal because TV Tokyo also stated in their arguments that if the Judge found that 4Kids gets to keep the contract for the original five year term, then 4Kids will have the remedy to sue TV Tokyo for damages.

    4Kids has all of the cards here. Their agreement was iron clad, and I read the original agreements and contracts that TV Tokyo wants out of. 4Kids did not breach any of the contracts. 4Kids has always performed their end of the contract.

    The problem was that TV Tokyo was using the results of an audit to try to get out of the contract. The audit was clearly flawed, and the amounts are absurd, sonce 50 percent of the claim is based on TV TOkyo's claim of not having received tax certificates in excess of two million. Even if that claim is true, and 4Kids denies this, the actual injury to TV Tokyo would be the liability they incured because of not receiving the certificates. And that is nowhere near 2 million dollars. It would depend on their tax rate, and they would actually have to document their loss.

    And once you throw that out, or at least reduce it by 80 percent or so, you are only left with a dispute of 2 million, and 4Kids has already paid one million in good faith money, money that was paid during their negotiations of the matter in March.

    So the worst case scenario is that 4Kids owes a very small amount, and that is if everything goes against them in the trial.

    Next week you will see how much money a person can make when they actually put in the time to read all of the available material and bankruptcy filings.

    I am going to make a lot of money.
     
  9. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    38,211
    Location:
    In a Dream World
    I thought that 4Kids filed for bankrupcty shortly after TV Tokyo announced that they were going to try and pitch Zexal that licensing expo back in June. While I know that they had a booth for that expo, I thought that they didn't do anything with Zexal after the court ruled that 4Kids still had control over each Yu-Gi-Oh! series until the trial said otherwise. What facts are you talking about exactly? Do you have any proof that you can show us that says that TV Tokyo still violated the orders from the judge after they couldn't license out Zexal to another company?

    While I'm aware that 4Kids could sue TV Tokyo for damages if they are proven innocent, I still think that TV Tokyo is in much better shape to handle that financially than 4Kids is at the moment. I'm also still curious about these facts you're claiming to know since I haven't seen anything to back up some of these claims you've been making.

    Are investors allowed to look through a company's contract, especially when that contract is under investigation in a trial? I thought that only people involved directly in the companies, mainly the head-ups, included in the contract would be allow to read it.

    I'm still curious about that bankruptcy information you mentioned before. Do you have a link to that information to back up some of your claims. It sounds interesting and could throw in some twists like D Dubbs mentioned, but you haven't posted that information to back up your claims. No offense, but saying that your an investor and constantly bragging about how much money you're going to make isn't going to make me believe everything you say at face value.
     
  10. 4KidsWillRise

    4KidsWillRise New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    You can buy the court information from Pacer.gov. If you set up an account you get $10 worth for free, so you might not ever have to pay. They charge 8 cents per page, but the max per document is 40 pages or so.

    When I was ordering I tried to copy lots of info, but was unable to do so....I think that maybe they do that on purpose.

    All of this is public information, but you have to pay for it. Once you get an account approved you will get a user name and password. They bill every quarter or so, so you might not get a bill for a while.

    The original contract was in a few of the early motions and arguements. 4Kids gets the shows for two more years no matter what happens at the trial. Tv Tokyo had argued that because that was the case, then there would be no harm in having TV Tokyo pitch the new show Zexal at the expo. The Judge said that because 4Kids had a right of first refusal of all new shows the moment they filed bankruptcy, then that meant that any attemps by TV Tokyo to sell out those Zexal rights were contrary to bankruptcy law, which puts a hold on things and creates a ;status quo" at the monent of the filing, until the disputes can be worked out.

    The evidence that I have that TV Tokyo disobeyed the Judge's orders concerning the Licensing Expo is found in one of 4Kids' motions/filings, where I believe they have depositions from a number of people who saw what TV Tokyo was doing.

    I also saw a handful of posts on at least two message boards pertaining to that type of activity. One of them was in this thread, where someone stated something similar about TV Tokyo's conduct at the expo.

    You can also go to the Southern District of New York bankruptcy site and see the schedule of events.

    http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/

    Trial is scheduled for Monday and Tuesday for the first phase, and the Judge will determine whether TV Tokyo is allowed to terminate the agreement a few years early. The second phase of the trial is Thursday, and it is there where the Judge will determine how much 4Kids owes TV Tokyo, if any, concerning the audit dispute. If 4Kids wins the first phase and keeps all shows for 5 years, then it really doesn't even matter what happens Thursday, as it will be considered a huge win for 4Kids. Even if 4Kids loses the rights, then it is likely they won't owe much when the Thursday determination is made about the audit dispute.

    They will have a viable business going forward, no matter what, as it evidenced by their Fall Schedule. They have every one of those shows for quite a while, no matter what the results next week.

    There is a small possibility of a delay on the trial if the Hurricane hits New York at that time, but I really doubt it.


    TRIAL [/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][TD] [/TD][TD="width: 75%, bgcolor: #dddddd"]Doc# 249 Motion Of The Debtors For Entry Of An Interim Order On An Ex-Parte Basis And A Final Order Establishing Notification And Hearing Procedures For Transfers Of Certain Equity Securities, filed by Michael B. Solow on behalf of 4Kids Entertainment, Inc. [/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR]
     
  11. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,032
    Location:
    IL
    Personally, I don't think 4kids stands a "ghost of a chance".
     
  12. Revenge Avenger

    Revenge Avenger New Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    United States
    4KidsWillRise, you seem educated on the matter, though you should tone down on the bragging.

    So... if, overall, 4Kids wins the case, are we going to change the name? It'll seem a little weird if the title becomes contradicted on the first few pages of posts.
     
  13. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    38,211
    Location:
    In a Dream World
    That was pretty funny and appropriate considering the situation and how often they've used that saying in their various dubs.

    I'll honestly be surprised if 4Kids does win the case. If they somehow do, I think that we can see if everyone wants to change the thread's title to something else.
     
  14. Takao

    Takao Fight the darkness all around

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,881
    Location:
    Canada
    Hmm, "4Kids will rise" is posting some very, very interesting information if it's true. I was actually contemplating an investment in 4Kids, but I'm not in the position where I could be potentially throwing money away.

    Maybe fans of GX, and 5Ds should hope that 4Kids loses the trial since if they have those shows for 2 more years there's a good chance they may dub the remaining episodes to make some money off of international sales, haha.

    Also, this will be the last weekend the CW4Kids will see competition from ABC Kids before the rebrand into more Edutainment Hours.
     
  15. 4KidsWillRise

    4KidsWillRise New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    All of the facts I stated are true. All one has to do is read the records that are available to all. Most people lose in life because they don't think for themselves. I happen to like getting to the bottom of what is going on, and that is where you find the truth, and the truth can make you money.

    Anyone who did the work could see that is a very strong contract that runs until 2015. In order for TV Tokyo to get out of that contract they would have to show some sort of breach of contract. 4Kids has always performed their part of the bargain, and make TV Tokyo a lot of money through the years. However, for whatever reason, TV Tokyo wanted to pitch Zexal to someone new, so they used the audit dispute to attempt to terminate the agreement.

    Most people don't realize that both TV Tokyo and 4Kids had been in discussions about the audit for some 10 months or so. TV Tokyo wanted at least 2-3 million, while 4Kids offered a little over 1 million, and made a payment of 1 million right before TV Tokyo attempted to pull the plug.

    4Kids saw what TV Tokyo was trying to do, and if they didn't file Bankruptcy TV Tokyo would have been at the Licensing Expo with a booth pushing Zexal and further hurting 4Kids. So, 4Kids filed bankruptcy to put a stop to things, and so that a neutral 3rd party could determine if TV Tokyo had a right to end the agreement early, and to also determine how much, if any, 4Kids owed in the disputed audit.

    This is not rocket science here. There are 13.5 million shares outstanding of KIDEQ. No insiders have sold significant shares ever. The biggest holder is Prescott Capital, and they hold 2.4 million shares. They control the Board of Directors, and they are the ones who authorized the filing of the Bankrutpcy. In addition, another fund bought shares on the open market during the last few months and now owns over 8 percent of the company. There are about 5 entities who likely own 90 percent of the shares. Nobody has sold.

    Shares will go over $1 soon. It is probably too late to buy, as the bid is 17 cents and the ask is 25 cents. Your best bet to get on board would be to buy Monday before the trial starts, as there likely won't be a decision on the first phase until after Tuesday's second day of the trial. Or you could hope the Hurricane hits New York so they cancel or delay the trial a day or two. That would give you time.

    There is a very good chance that once positive news is announced that the price will race so high, or trading will be halted for the news to get out. This will keep you from buying at these lows.

    I have all I need and I am not selling, but there is still a ton of money to be made if you get some shares under 30 cents.
     
  16. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,032
    Location:
    IL
    "Reads everything 4KidsWillRise has posted" Is this... is this some kind of scheme to get people to invest in 4kids? Ah, I should have known, you almost had me...
     
  17. D Dubbs

    D Dubbs Wish Upon A Star

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    14,880
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Haha, well this is certainly interesting. So essentially you came here to gloat about how you'll soon be rich? :sweat:

    In all seriousness, I guess I have to thank you for shedding light on these developments. I always did wonder where you could find those documents, I knew they were pubic knowledge but never took the time to search in depth for them.

    In regards to the thread title, I still think Endgame is an appropriate title. It refers to the moment in chess when few pieces are left and either player can win. But if there's a demand for the title to be changed, then yes, we can have another round of nominations and Light Lucario can change the name.
     
  18. Chaos Yoshi Mage

    Chaos Yoshi Mage The Lonely Raven

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,032
    Location:
    IL
    I agree that Endgame is fine, even 4kids last many years and 4kidsWillRise becomes a billionaire. This is a win or lose situation right now and it becomes a pun because of Yu-Gi-Oh! And I love bad jokes...
     
  19. 4Kids4EverFandom

    4Kids4EverFandom Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,017
    Location:
    Greenwood,IN USA


    I DO Believe this that 4Kids Will WIN this Lawsuit, i and believe it was a shame for TV Tokyo went behind 4Kids back by trying sued with a FALSE TECHNICALLITY! 4Kidswillrise, you are the best!! Long Live Yu-Gi-Oh 4Kids!!
     
  20. Light Lucario

    Light Lucario Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    38,211
    Location:
    In a Dream World
    No offense, but I'm still not completely convinced that all of your claims. Somethings like 4Kids still having access to the three series they've already dubbed even if they lose the license to the whole franchise doesn't add up for me. I'm also not sure if an investor can say that a company has always hold up their end of the bargain for all of their contracts/deals since they're obviously not going to make everything they do for the company known to the public.

    Actually, I'm pretty sure that some of the information back when the lawsuit first came up showed that TV Tokyo and 4Kids were discussing this situation quite a few months before they finally filed the lawsuit. I believe that there was also some information about how 4Kids owes money to TPCI.

    This is something I'm still confused about. I was under the impression that 4Kids went to the judge with the claim that they were still the holder of the license until the trial said otherwise first and then declared bankruptcy. I understand that they declared bankruptcy due to their financial status and a way to stall, but I thought that they already stopped TV Tokyo from licensing off Zexal before they went into bankruptcy. I might be mixing the dates of when they filed a claim against TV Tokyo for trying to license out Zexal and when they declared bankruptcy around, but I'm pretty sure that was the case.

    Like I mentioned before, I'm not really into the stock market. It just comes off as a fancy way to gamble and I'm not really interesting in risking what little money I do have. I'm not really sure how many people here would be interested and able to invest in any stocks, let alone in 4Kids. Though, I would appreciate it if you could stop bragging about how much money you believe you're going to get. It just comes off as a bit annoying to me and I'd appreciate it if this thread doesn't turn into a how to get rich quick bit with the 4Kids stock either.

    I realize that you're a big 4Kids fan and you want a good outcome for the company in this lawsuit, all of which I respect, but I'm still not convinced that TV Tokyo went behind 4Kids back with a false technicality. Owing millions of dollars to another company that they were owed due to their contract doesn't sound like a technicality. And nothing that has been said here has convinced me that these claims against 4Kids are false. I imagine that it is possible, but I don't think that's likely. 4Kids could have avoided this tension by paying their debt since they do have more money than what they do, but they haven't. That along with the new layout and videos on their YouTube page, along with the information that we have heard from other sources, makes me believe that they don't have a good chance of winning this trial at all.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page