Captain America cartoon series: How would it work?

The Overlord · #1 10-05-2009, 11:57 AM

Now lot of people here have expressed support for a Captain America cartoon and it may happen after his movie comes out, but how would it work?

Captain America himself is fairly moral and wholesome character but the environment he works in is often dark and some of his villains are nightmarish.

Captain America started off fighting in WWII, which is one brutal periods in world history, not really the best backdrop for a Sat morning cartoon.

Now let's talk about Cap's villains, particularly his nemesis, the Red Skull. The Red Skull's gimmick is that he is pure evil and not in a silly Sat morning cartoon way, he is evil to the point that he is horrific and repulsive. He's a little too evil for a sat morning cartoon, so it seems like he would be watered down into a generic villain for him to get past the censors.

Another problem is politics, a character like Captain America is naturally one that deals with politics and lot of his stories have dealt with politics. However politics cause controversy, so they likely wouldn't exist in a Cap cartoon.

**GWOtaku** · #2 10-05-2009, 12:03 PM

Good writing would avoid the pitfalls you mention, I think. World War II? Justice League season one threw the DC heroes back in time to that era. It's been done, so I don't see the problem. A good move might be to get Cap involved in S.H.I.E.L.D., giving him the opportunity to take on a variety of villains. I also feel that Red Skull is not too hot for television. Clearly evil villains are no stranger to animated series, and to me less potentially controversial than a sympathetic villain like Magneto.

capfan1 · #3 10-05-2009, 12:25 PM

Don't forget the evil villians that are already on cartoons,the joker,apocolypse,mr.sinister etc.all have been portrayed as they wer'e in the comics.I don't really see any need to use the nazi stuff in the series,red skull has made a few appearances already although not too great appearances.They don't need to start the series with cap in the war,a simple flashback story/show would be enough.I agree with working with shield but the less shield shown in the show the better.I would like to see the falcon partner with him in a few shows,also a few marvel guests to show up including the obvious avengers,daredevil,black panther,hulk,wolverine,spidey.His love interest sharon carter would also be good.

Silverstar · #4 10-05-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Captain America started off fighting in WWII, which is one brutal periods in world history, not really the best backdrop for a Sat morning cartoon.

WW2 has been depicted in cartoons before: "Old Soldiers" (X-Men), "The Savage Time" (Justice League), etc. Heck, even Freakazoid! alluded to WW2 in "Freakazoid is History!". Just downplay the Nazism and brutality. Anyway, Cap would only have to be in the 40's for the pilot episode.

Quote:

Now let's talk about Cap's villains, particularly his nemesis, the Red Skull. The Red Skull's gimmick is that he is pure evil and not in a silly Sat morning cartoon way, he is evil to the point that he is horrific and repulsive. He's a little too evil for a sat morning cartoon, so it seems like he would be watered down into a generic villain for him to get past the censors.

Red Skull could easily get on TV; just sidestep his anti-Semitism and make him a generally evil genius megalomanic bent on global conquest. Plus, they wouldn't have to use Red Skull in every story.

The Overlord · #5 10-05-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverstar

WW2 has been depicted in cartoons before: "Old Soldiers" (X-Men), "The Savage Time" (Justice League), etc. Heck, even Freakazoid! alluded to WW2 in "Freakazoid is History!". Just downplay the Nazism and brutality. Anyway, Cap would only have to be in the 40's for the pilot episode.

Red Skull could easily get on TV; just sidestep his anti-Semitism and make him a generally evil genius megalomanic bent on global conquest. Plus, they wouldn't have to use Red Skull in every story.

That kind of waters him down and makes him less unique, more generic. Just like Magneto is at his core a sympathetic villain, the Red Skull at his core is pure evil. How do express that in a sat morning cartoon? Red Skull isn't just a conqueror like Dr. Doom, who believes the world would be better off under his control, often his plans serve no purpose beyond malice. If the Skull is not pure evil and that's his whole thing in the comics, what would make him a compelling villain in a cartoon?

Not mention a lot of the other villains, like the watchdogs and ULTIMATUM are very political, thus controversial.

Yes they don't have to use Red Skull in every episode, but a lot of the Cap villains are connect to the Skull one way or the other: Arnim Zola, Sin, Crossbones, Doctor Faustus and lot of his minions are almost as bad as he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWOtaku

Good writing would avoid the pitfalls you mention, I think. World War II? Justice League season one threw the DC heroes back in time to that era. It's been done, so I don't see the problem. A good move might be to get Cap involved in S.H.I.E.L.D., giving him the opportunity to take on a variety of villains. I also feel that Red Skull is not too hot for television. Clearly evil villains are no stranger to animated series, and to me less potentially controversial than a sympathetic villain like Magneto.

There are two different types of evil found in fiction, the silly evil of a Card Carrying Villain: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...arryingVillain

And the nightmarish scary evil of a Complete Monster: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ompleteMonster

There are far more Card carrying villains then Complete Monsters on Sat morning cartoons. I think a sympathetic villain is an easier sell then a Complete Monster.

The Red Skull is a racist, sexist, sadistic, genocidal, child abusing psychopath, a really politically incorrect villain, the type that would have soccer moms up in arms.

**TheVileOne** · #6 10-05-2009, 07:08 PM

The planned and scrapped 1990's Cap cartoon was going to take place in WWII and featured Red Skull and Bucky.

The Overlord · #7 10-05-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

The planned and scrapped 1990's Cap cartoon was going to take place in WWII and featured Red Skull and Bucky.

And from all accounts that series was going to suffer from some of the problems I mentioned.

From example there was one episode where the Red Skull was perform an occult ritual involving rearranging Stone Henge into a giant Swastika. Now needless to say the network didn't like that, so they changed the plot into the Red Skull looking for the stone of Scon is he can be declared the King of England and have them drop out of the war, which is really stupid.

cartoonscartoons · #8 10-05-2009, 11:57 PM

Really depends on the setting and characters.

Bucky? or no Bucky?
Falcon a part of the show regularly?
Setting? WWII or modern-day?

It all depends.......

**TheVileOne** · #9 10-06-2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Overlord

And from all accounts that series was going to suffer from some of the problems I mentioned.

From example there was one episode where the Red Skull was perform an occult ritual involving rearranging Stone Henge into a giant Swastika. Now needless to say the network didn't like that, so they changed the plot into the Red Skull looking for the stone of Scon is he can be declared the King of England and have them drop out of the war, which is really stupid.

You simply work around it. Look at what Justice League did with a WWII setting.

Also, the Cap crossover episode in the 90's X-men series was one of my favorite episodes. Ditto to X-men Evolution.

The Overlord · #10 10-06-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

You simply work around it. Look at what Justice League did with a WWII setting.

Also, the Cap crossover episode in the 90's X-men series was one of my favorite episodes. Ditto to X-men Evolution.

Its hard to work around an arch nemesis who is supposed to be a Nazi war criminal.

**Wonderwall** · #11 10-06-2009, 01:02 AM

Obviously they would need to tone down parts of Red Skull. But I think you can still get an effective villain and still retain that evilness of the Skull. Joker worked fine without being overly violent.

**TheVileOne** · #12 10-06-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Its hard to work around an arch nemesis who is supposed to be a Nazi war criminal.

And yet X-men had Wolverine and Cap fighting Red Skull in WWII.

The Overlord · #13 10-06-2009, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

And yet X-men had Wolverine and Cap fighting Red Skull in WWII.

For one episode, not an ongoing series. The Skull was a guest star villain in that episode, so they don't have to focus on him that much, in a Captain America series, they would have to focus on him a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonderwall

Obviously they would need to tone down parts of Red Skull. But I think you can still get an effective villain and still retain that evilness of the Skull. Joker worked fine without being overly violent.

Its a bit of a different balancing act with the Skull then with the Joker, probably because the Red Skull's evil is connected to a real historical evil and Joker was written as a harmless trickster for most of the silver age, so you could blend that with the evil psychopath Joker from modern comics to create BTAS Joker. I mean can they even say the word Nazi on kids cartoons?

**TheVileOne** · #14 10-06-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Overlord

For one episode, not an ongoing series. The Skull was a guest star villain in that episode, so they don't have to focus on him that much, in a Captain America series, they would have to focus on him a lot.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have done it for the series. This also wasn't why the show was scrapped.

The Overlord · #15 10-06-2009, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

That doesn't mean they couldn't have done it for the series. This also wasn't why the show was scrapped.

No, but considering the plot lines for this show involved the Skull trying to become king of England it sounds like a good thing this series was scrapped. It seemed like the Network was trying to water down any plot from the show to the point where it becomes silly, which is really bad show set in WWII.

So clearly that series was not capable of striking the right balance, it sounded like it was going to suck.

maczero · #16 10-06-2009, 03:27 PM

What I don't get is why you don't think Red Skull can be "watered down" to where he's acceptable to broadcast S&P. It's happened to the Punisher, Wolverine, Joker, Magneto, Morbius and even a previous incarnation of the Red Skull. If you don't like it then you're probably pushing for a more adult series which is fine but I don't think it'll happen.

**GWOtaku** · #17 10-06-2009, 05:37 PM

I don't think we should overlook the fact of Nazis being used in animation time and again. I mean, having Red Skull as a villain doesn't mean you have to have him spewing vile Nazi propaganda 24/7. I don't see him doing that in the comics lately.

SpideyFan914 · #18 10-06-2009, 05:56 PM

My never-gonna-happen perfect solution: Aim for an older audience, get what could be one of the greatest comic shows of all time.

My more realistic thoughts:
1. "Why'd they call their soldier 'Captain America'? They're not the nazis! You - you're the nazis!" - Walter Hardy, Spider-Man TAS
If they can say nazi on Spider-Man TAS, they can say it anywhere.
2. I see what you're saying, actually - that even a slightly censored Red Skull will take a large dent out of the character as it would not be a proper portrayal of what's supposed to be a symbol of what was once a very real and evil threat. I agree with you - if you're gonna pull off Nazis, you've gotta do it truthfully.
3. "Savage Time" was a pretty lousy episode - and this is a Vandal Savage fan speaking.
4. Luckily for us, censors have decreased dramatically since the '90s and even since JL. Just look at TSSM - "Don't get your goop in my hair!" - "I own you one!" "At least!" - "A sulfur-and-brimstone pumpkin bomb that will paint the town red! Well, the ballroom anyway...." - "The limp completed the illusion."
5. Spongebob has controversal issues in it, but they fly right over kids' heads. "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?" (where Squidward loses his job and goes to live with Spongebob) clearly demeans and stereotypes America's unemployed and acts incredibly unsympathetically, yet (as far as I know), nothing bad came of it.
6. We won't be able to get anything like Return of the Joker if kids are supposed to be able to watch it, that's true. But with good writers, there could be covert material within each episode that makes way for controversy and, yes, even the horrors of Nazism. If nothing else, Greg Weisman's work on The Spectacular Spider-Man is proof of it. I'm certain that he could pull off an excellent Cap series!

**TheVileOne** · #19 10-06-2009, 06:13 PM

This is getting kind of ridiculous because at the end of the day look at Wolverine. And look at how Wolverine is used CONSTANTLY in animation and still turns out good.

The Overlord · #20 10-06-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maczero

What I don't get is why you don't think Red Skull can be "watered down" to where he's acceptable to broadcast S&P. It's happened to the Punisher, Wolverine, Joker, Magneto, Morbius and even a previous incarnation of the Red Skull. If you don't like it then you're probably pushing for a more adult series which is fine but I don't think it'll happen.

Oh yeah Red Skull can be watered down, but can he can he watered down
and still be a compelling villain? that's the question.

Because some of those watered down characters, like Punisher and Morbius, really sucked.