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  1. #1
    D Dubbs's Avatar
    D Dubbs is offline Wish Upon A Star
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    4Kids Talkback: Endgame - The 4Kids Discussion V11

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    The hourglass counting down to the final hour has begun. In March 2011, NAS and TV Tokyo filed complaints claiming that 4Kids had abused the terms of the Yu-Gi-Oh! license and wished to terminate their agreement. 4Kids won a temporary victory in June, granting them a stay on the license until the claims can be validated one way or another in court. The trial is mere days away now. 4Kids has stated that their ability to continue operating as a company could very well be determined by the outcome. Will 4Kids pull through or will they fall? The endgame is now.

    Important links:

    www.toonzai.com
    www.4KidsTV.com
    4Kids' YouTube page
    4Kids' Hulu page
    www.toonzaki.com
    Toonzai's Facebook page
    Toonzaki's Facebook page
    "If some have learned something that is fine. If others have learned nothing that is fine as well, more importantly...it was fun, right?"
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  2. #2
    Philmister978's Avatar
    Philmister978 is offline Alvight, you vin
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    Personally, I think 4Kids has run their course, They don't have Pokemon or Ninja Turtles. They most likely will lose the Yu-Gi-Oh license. They've played Sonic X ad nausium, and quite possibly, won't be getting another Anime series (Heck, I haven't heard squat about Tai-Chi Chasers since they announced the license. Perhaps the company just gave up on it).

    Really, They're going nowhere fast at all. Just throw in the towel and give up guys. Besides, we'd still have Bandai and FUNimation (even though they rarely air anything on TV anyways nowadays), as well as Nelvana.
    Aw come on, you expect me to put something witty here?

  3. #3
    FFmax's Avatar
    FFmax is offline Pangoro's Bizarre Adventure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philmister978 View Post
    Heck, I haven't heard squat about Tai-Chi Chasers since they announced they licensed it. Perhaps the company just gave up on it.
    Actually I saw several promos for it during Yu-gi-oh, the show is coming in fall, but that's probably if 4kids wins this case first.
    Fan of jrpgs, anime, and cartoons.

  4. #4
    4KidsWillRise is offline Banned
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    I hate to bring you bad news, but the end-game is not near at all. I am a 4Kids Investor, and one of only a few people in the world who bought a significant amount of shares since this dispute and bankrutpcy started.

    You too, could have been in a great position like me if you had read all of the bankruptcy material. If you had, you would know the following:

    1) Even if the Judge rules that TV Tokyo had a right to terminate the agreement, 4Kids still gets all of the current YuGiOh shows for another two years, just not the five years in the contract. The only change is that they would not get Zexal.

    2) The amount that TV Tokyo sued for is already mitigated by the one million good faith payment that 4Kids made to TV Tokyo in March while they were negotiating. It is further mitigated by the fact that over 2 million of the dispute is from tax certificates that TV Tokyo said 4Kids never sent. Even if that is true, the true tax liability that TV Tokyo would have suffered would be just a fraction of that total amount (since they don't pay 100 percent tax). And that is even if the claims are true. 4Kids disputes that.

    3) TV Tokyo acted against the Judges orders at the Licensing Expo in June. 4Kids has documented this. This will further effect the trial results.

    I could go on, but the most important thing is that TV Tokyo has admitted in writing that 4Kids gets all of the current shows for another two years, and that is if it is ruled that the termination attempt was valid. TV Tokyo has also admitted in writing and in court that if the Judge finds that TV Tokyo has no right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, then 4Kids could, and should, sue for damages. This is documented. 4Kids has a lot of leverage here, and will gain a ton one way or the other.

    In the past, when parties are negotiating in good faith, courts have held that terminations are not valid. 4Kids did not breach any specific performance with TV Tokyo at all. They simply had a major disagreement about the audit results. Therefore they negotiated in good faith to settle the disagreement.

    When 4Kids saw that TV Tokyo was using this disagreement to attempt to get out of their contract with 4Kids, and also in order to pitch the new Zexal series to someone else at the licensing expo, 4Kids did the only thing it could do, they filed Bankruptcy.

    Yes, it is a big week next week, but the absolute worst that will happen is the judge will find that TV Tokyo is allowed to get out of the contract and that 4Kids owes a small amount in disputed payments. Even if that happend, 4Kids is still in business and can use every single current YuGiOh for at least two years. 4Kids still has 6 million in cash and zero debt, yet the company is selling for well under 3 million in current market cap.

    There are many major positive outcomes, as well. If the termination is found to be invalid, which it likely will be, then 4Kids gets all current YuGiOh for the duration of the five year contract, and they also get the rights to Zexal for that time. Plus, they would be able to sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination and that will be worth many millions, since this Bankruptcy has cost 4Kids a lot.

    4Kids is in the driver's seat here. There could easily be an agreement today or Monday before the trial starts. TV Tokyo has much to lose if they proceed with the trial and it is found that they had no right to terminate an iron clad agreement where there was no breach of specific performance.

    The wise thing to do would have been to buy shares for five months like I did. I am going to make a boatload of money in the next week. You could have done the same thing if you were paying attention.

    4Kids is just clearing the decks. They will either be sold for many times the current market cap, or they will come out of this bankrutpcy a much more lean fighting machine, as they will be able to knock out some accounts payable in the process. They have no secured debt, so they are in great shape with their 6 million in cash and streamlined operations going forward (if they don't sell).

    The facts are squarely on the side of 4Kids. I suspect that heavy negotiations are going on as we speak, between TV Tokyo and 4Kids, as I noticed about two days ago that 4KidsEntertainment.com is offline (and still is). This would seem to be part of the negotiation process and a tactic by 4Kids, since 4Kids.tv and other related websites have not been effected.

    Something big is happening, and it involves me making a lot of money.

  5. #5
    Philmister978's Avatar
    Philmister978 is offline Alvight, you vin
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFmax View Post
    Actually I saw several promos for it during Yu-gi-oh, the show is coming in fall, but that's probably if 4kids wins this case first.
    Chalk that up for not watching TV that often then.
    Aw come on, you expect me to put something witty here?

  6. #6
    D Dubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise View Post
    I hate to bring you bad news, but the end-game is not near at all. I am a 4Kids Investor, and one of only a few people in the world who bought a significant amount of shares since this dispute and bankrutpcy started.

    You too, could have been in a great position like me if you had read all of the bankruptcy material. If you had, you would know the following:

    1) Even if the Judge rules that TV Tokyo had a right to terminate the agreement, 4Kids still gets all of the current YuGiOh shows for another two years, just not the five years in the contract. The only change is that they would not get Zexal.

    2) The amount that TV Tokyo sued for is already mitigated by the one million good faith payment that 4Kids made to TV Tokyo in March while they were negotiating. It is further mitigated by the fact that over 2 million of the dispute is from tax certificates that TV Tokyo said 4Kids never sent. Even if that is true, the true tax liability that TV Tokyo would have suffered would be just a fraction of that total amount (since they don't pay 100 percent tax). And that is even if the claims are true. 4Kids disputes that.

    3) TV Tokyo acted against the Judges orders at the Licensing Expo in June. 4Kids has documented this. This will further effect the trial results.

    I could go on, but the most important thing is that TV Tokyo has admitted in writing that 4Kids gets all of the current shows for another two years, and that is if it is ruled that the termination attempt was valid. TV Tokyo has also admitted in writing and in court that if the Judge finds that TV Tokyo has no right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, then 4Kids could, and should, sue for damages. This is documented. 4Kids has a lot of leverage here, and will gain a ton one way or the other.

    In the past, when parties are negotiating in good faith, courts have held that terminations are not valid. 4Kids did not breach any specific performance with TV Tokyo at all. They simply had a major disagreement about the audit results. Therefore they negotiated in good faith to settle the disagreement.

    When 4Kids saw that TV Tokyo was using this disagreement to attempt to get out of their contract with 4Kids, and also in order to pitch the new Zexal series to someone else at the licensing expo, 4Kids did the only thing it could do, they filed Bankruptcy.

    Yes, it is a big week next week, but the absolute worst that will happen is the judge will find that TV Tokyo is allowed to get out of the contract and that 4Kids owes a small amount in disputed payments. Even if that happend, 4Kids is still in business and can use every single current YuGiOh for at least two years. 4Kids still has 6 million in cash and zero debt, yet the company is selling for well under 3 million in current market cap.

    There are many major positive outcomes, as well. If the termination is found to be invalid, which it likely will be, then 4Kids gets all current YuGiOh for the duration of the five year contract, and they also get the rights to Zexal for that time. Plus, they would be able to sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination and that will be worth many millions, since this Bankruptcy has cost 4Kids a lot.

    4Kids is in the driver's seat here. There could easily be an agreement today or Monday before the trial starts. TV Tokyo has much to lose if they proceed with the trial and it is found that they had no right to terminate an iron clad agreement where there was no breach of specific performance.

    The wise thing to do would have been to buy shares for five months like I did. I am going to make a boatload of money in the next week. You could have done the same thing if you were paying attention.

    4Kids is just clearing the decks. They will either be sold for many times the current market cap, or they will come out of this bankrutpcy a much more lean fighting machine, as they will be able to knock out some accounts payable in the process. They have no secured debt, so they are in great shape with their 6 million in cash and streamlined operations going forward (if they don't sell).

    The facts are squarely on the side of 4Kids. I suspect that heavy negotiations are going on as we speak, between TV Tokyo and 4Kids, as I noticed about two days ago that 4KidsEntertainment.com is offline (and still is). This would seem to be part of the negotiation process and a tactic by 4Kids, since 4Kids.tv and other related websites have not been effected.

    Something big is happening, and it involves me making a lot of money.
    Well, if true, that certainly puts an interesting twist on things. Some of that has been posted here before such as the fact that 4Kids filed bankruptcy to implement the stall and that it wasn't a monetary issue on their side since they have more cash then debt. But still, a lot of it is pretty interesting, like them holding onto previous Yu-Gi-Oh! series for another two years. I also hadn't heard about TV Tokyo promoting Zexal at Las Vegas, despite the judge's orders. However, 4Kids originally held the license through 2015, so where does the two years come from? Do you have a link to the bankruptcy material?
    "If some have learned something that is fine. If others have learned nothing that is fine as well, more importantly...it was fun, right?"
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  7. #7
    Light Lucario's Avatar
    Light Lucario is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise View Post
    I hate to bring you bad news, but the end-game is not near at all. I am a 4Kids Investor, and one of only a few people in the world who bought a significant amount of shares since this dispute and bankrutpcy started.

    You too, could have been in a great position like me if you had read all of the bankruptcy material. If you had, you would know the following:

    1) Even if the Judge rules that TV Tokyo had a right to terminate the agreement, 4Kids still gets all of the current YuGiOh shows for another two years, just not the five years in the contract. The only change is that they would not get Zexal.
    I thought that they wouldn't have any rights to anything Yu-Gi-Oh! related since they would no longer have the license to the franchise if these claims are accurate. TV Tokyo probably wouldn't want them to gain any money from either the previous series they have dubbed or any merchandise revenue if they had the chance to give the rights to the whole franchise to another company. The whole lawsuit is to take away the license to the franchise and since 4Kids technically has Zexal at the moment, I thought it would include every series.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    3) TV Tokyo acted against the Judges orders at the Licensing Expo in June. 4Kids has documented this. This will further effect the trial results.
    I'll admit that TV Tokyo was in the wrong legally to do that, although I personally can't blame them for trying to give the rights to Zexal to another company when they clearly don't want anything to do with 4Kids anymore, but I'm not sure if it would significantly effect the trial's results. Especially when I was under the impression that this first part to the trial was determine if 4Kids did violate their contract with TV Tokyo/NAS or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    I could go on, but the most important thing is that TV Tokyo has admitted in writing that 4Kids gets all of the current shows for another two years, and that is if it is ruled that the termination attempt was valid. TV Tokyo has also admitted in writing and in court that if the Judge finds that TV Tokyo has no right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, then 4Kids could, and should, sue for damages. This is documented. 4Kids has a lot of leverage here, and will gain a ton one way or the other.
    I think I only remember the statement about the judge saying that TV Tokyo doesn't have the right to terminate their five year agreement with 4Kids, although I think that was in regards to prior to the trial. Would you happen to have a link to where it says this in writing since I can't seem to remember most of the other statements here for sure, especially the whole part of 4Kids still having access to the other three series for two years?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    There are many major positive outcomes, as well. If the termination is found to be invalid, which it likely will be, then 4Kids gets all current YuGiOh for the duration of the five year contract, and they also get the rights to Zexal for that time. Plus, they would be able to sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination and that will be worth many millions, since this Bankruptcy has cost 4Kids a lot.

    4Kids is in the driver's seat here. There could easily be an agreement today or Monday before the trial starts. TV Tokyo has much to lose if they proceed with the trial and it is found that they had no right to terminate an iron clad agreement where there was no breach of specific performance.
    While it's true that they could sue TV Tokyo for wrongful termination if the claims are proven inaccurate, I'm really don't think that 4Kids has a good chance of coming out of this case as the winner. If they knew that they didn't violate their contract, then why did they stall the trial by filing for bankruptcy? I think that they could have brought up TV Tokyo trying to license Zexal when they aren't legally allowed to do that to the courts without going into bankruptcy. While this might be kind of a minor detail, they don't have any Yu-Gi-Oh! videos or even Yu-Gi-Oh! characters on their wall paper design of their new YouTube page. If they thought that they were going to win or that they didn't violate their contract, they probably would have put up those videos and have a picture of Atem, probably the most well-known Yu-Gi-Oh! main character, along with the other main characters from their different shows. To me, that makes me believe that they either know that they aren't going to win or at least they don't want to take the chance of going through the effort to put up videos and creating a new layout for their page only to take them down.

    Besides, I think that 4Kids has more to lose in this case than TV Tokyo. They're generally a stable company with a lot of money thanks to the shows they have and they deals they have with other U.S. distributors for those shows. In comparison, 4Kids is in bankruptcy, have few shows under their belt that they actually control, let alone make money off of and if they're proven guilty, they may have to pay TV Tokyo for the legal fees as well as the money they owed them in the first place, which I still don't think that 4Kids can afford to do at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    The wise thing to do would have been to buy shares for five months like I did. I am going to make a boatload of money in the next week. You could have done the same thing if you were paying attention.
    I've never been really interested in trying my luck with buying stocks. It's a tad too risky for me with the little money I do have.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    4Kids is just clearing the decks. They will either be sold for many times the current market cap, or they will come out of this bankrutpcy a much more lean fighting machine, as they will be able to knock out some accounts payable in the process. They have no secured debt, so they are in great shape with their 6 million in cash and streamlined operations going forward (if they don't sell).
    I don't know who would be interested in buying 4Kids at this point. Without their Yu-Gi-Oh! series, they don't have a lot of shows that would interest most buyers. The only one that could attract some companies might be Sonic X, which isn't that much to begin with. Granted, they do have some non-television related properties that might interest some buyers, but after being caught up in this legal situation, I'm not sure if many companies would be up for buying 4Kids. I think it's more likely that the company will not be able to get out of bankruptcy, sadly resulting in more people losing their jobs.

  8. #8
    4KidsWillRise is offline Banned
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    After the original bankruptcy filing there were several motions made by both parties. TV Tokyo wanted to pitch the Zexal series at the licensing expo, and 4Kids obviously had a problem with that.

    The Judge ruled that the bankruptcy filing put a hold on not only the attempted termination of current YuGiOh series, but also Zexal, and therefore ruled that TV Tokyo would not be allowed to pitch the show at the expo.

    TV Tokyo had already secured a booth for that very purpose. TV Tokyo was ordered to not pitch the show, yet facts have come out that will show that even though they didn't have an official booth, they still did not follow the Judge's order, as they actively tried to undermine what 4Kids was doing. This is huge.

    Before the Judge ruled on whether TV Tokyo would be allowed at the expo, she (female Judge) heard motions and arguements from both sides. Part of 4Kids arguement was that by having TV Tokyo at the licensing expo, this would cause immediate and irreparable harm to 4Kids.

    TV Tokyo's argument was that there was already a "wind-down" agreement in the original five year contract, and that therefore 4Kids has the rights to all other YuGiOh shows for that period, anyways, and therefore, the harm that 4Kids would suffer by having TV Tokyo pitch the show was not irreparable, or even harm that should be prevented from happening.

    The Judge ruled in favor of 4Kids on this, yet TV Tokyo will be proven to have disobeyed the direct orders from the Judge concerning the expo. It is a huge deal because TV Tokyo also stated in their arguments that if the Judge found that 4Kids gets to keep the contract for the original five year term, then 4Kids will have the remedy to sue TV Tokyo for damages.

    4Kids has all of the cards here. Their agreement was iron clad, and I read the original agreements and contracts that TV Tokyo wants out of. 4Kids did not breach any of the contracts. 4Kids has always performed their end of the contract.

    The problem was that TV Tokyo was using the results of an audit to try to get out of the contract. The audit was clearly flawed, and the amounts are absurd, sonce 50 percent of the claim is based on TV TOkyo's claim of not having received tax certificates in excess of two million. Even if that claim is true, and 4Kids denies this, the actual injury to TV Tokyo would be the liability they incured because of not receiving the certificates. And that is nowhere near 2 million dollars. It would depend on their tax rate, and they would actually have to document their loss.

    And once you throw that out, or at least reduce it by 80 percent or so, you are only left with a dispute of 2 million, and 4Kids has already paid one million in good faith money, money that was paid during their negotiations of the matter in March.

    So the worst case scenario is that 4Kids owes a very small amount, and that is if everything goes against them in the trial.

    Next week you will see how much money a person can make when they actually put in the time to read all of the available material and bankruptcy filings.

    I am going to make a lot of money.

  9. #9
    Light Lucario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise View Post
    After the original bankruptcy filing there were several motions made by both parties. TV Tokyo wanted to pitch the Zexal series at the licensing expo, and 4Kids obviously had a problem with that.

    The Judge ruled that the bankruptcy filing put a hold on not only the attempted termination of current YuGiOh series, but also Zexal, and therefore ruled that TV Tokyo would not be allowed to pitch the show at the expo.

    TV Tokyo had already secured a booth for that very purpose. TV Tokyo was ordered to not pitch the show, yet facts have come out that will show that even though they didn't have an official booth, they still did not follow the Judge's order, as they actively tried to undermine what 4Kids was doing. This is huge.
    I thought that 4Kids filed for bankrupcty shortly after TV Tokyo announced that they were going to try and pitch Zexal that licensing expo back in June. While I know that they had a booth for that expo, I thought that they didn't do anything with Zexal after the court ruled that 4Kids still had control over each Yu-Gi-Oh! series until the trial said otherwise. What facts are you talking about exactly? Do you have any proof that you can show us that says that TV Tokyo still violated the orders from the judge after they couldn't license out Zexal to another company?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    The Judge ruled in favor of 4Kids on this, yet TV Tokyo will be proven to have disobeyed the direct orders from the Judge concerning the expo. It is a huge deal because TV Tokyo also stated in their arguments that if the Judge found that 4Kids gets to keep the contract for the original five year term, then 4Kids will have the remedy to sue TV Tokyo for damages.
    While I'm aware that 4Kids could sue TV Tokyo for damages if they are proven innocent, I still think that TV Tokyo is in much better shape to handle that financially than 4Kids is at the moment. I'm also still curious about these facts you're claiming to know since I haven't seen anything to back up some of these claims you've been making.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    4Kids has all of the cards here. Their agreement was iron clad, and I read the original agreements and contracts that TV Tokyo wants out of. 4Kids did not breach any of the contracts. 4Kids has always performed their end of the contract.
    Are investors allowed to look through a company's contract, especially when that contract is under investigation in a trial? I thought that only people involved directly in the companies, mainly the head-ups, included in the contract would be allow to read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4KidsWillRise
    The problem was that TV Tokyo was using the results of an audit to try to get out of the contract. The audit was clearly flawed, and the amounts are absurd, sonce 50 percent of the claim is based on TV TOkyo's claim of not having received tax certificates in excess of two million. Even if that claim is true, and 4Kids denies this, the actual injury to TV Tokyo would be the liability they incured because of not receiving the certificates. And that is nowhere near 2 million dollars. It would depend on their tax rate, and they would actually have to document their loss.

    And once you throw that out, or at least reduce it by 80 percent or so, you are only left with a dispute of 2 million, and 4Kids has already paid one million in good faith money, money that was paid during their negotiations of the matter in March.

    So the worst case scenario is that 4Kids owes a very small amount, and that is if everything goes against them in the trial.

    Next week you will see how much money a person can make when they actually put in the time to read all of the available material and bankruptcy filings.

    I am going to make a lot of money.
    I'm still curious about that bankruptcy information you mentioned before. Do you have a link to that information to back up some of your claims. It sounds interesting and could throw in some twists like D Dubbs mentioned, but you haven't posted that information to back up your claims. No offense, but saying that your an investor and constantly bragging about how much money you're going to make isn't going to make me believe everything you say at face value.

  10. #10
    4KidsWillRise is offline Banned
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    You can buy the court information from Pacer.gov. If you set up an account you get $10 worth for free, so you might not ever have to pay. They charge 8 cents per page, but the max per document is 40 pages or so.

    When I was ordering I tried to copy lots of info, but was unable to do so....I think that maybe they do that on purpose.

    All of this is public information, but you have to pay for it. Once you get an account approved you will get a user name and password. They bill every quarter or so, so you might not get a bill for a while.

    The original contract was in a few of the early motions and arguements. 4Kids gets the shows for two more years no matter what happens at the trial. Tv Tokyo had argued that because that was the case, then there would be no harm in having TV Tokyo pitch the new show Zexal at the expo. The Judge said that because 4Kids had a right of first refusal of all new shows the moment they filed bankruptcy, then that meant that any attemps by TV Tokyo to sell out those Zexal rights were contrary to bankruptcy law, which puts a hold on things and creates a ;status quo" at the monent of the filing, until the disputes can be worked out.

    The evidence that I have that TV Tokyo disobeyed the Judge's orders concerning the Licensing Expo is found in one of 4Kids' motions/filings, where I believe they have depositions from a number of people who saw what TV Tokyo was doing.

    I also saw a handful of posts on at least two message boards pertaining to that type of activity. One of them was in this thread, where someone stated something similar about TV Tokyo's conduct at the expo.

    You can also go to the Southern District of New York bankruptcy site and see the schedule of events.

    http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/

    Trial is scheduled for Monday and Tuesday for the first phase, and the Judge will determine whether TV Tokyo is allowed to terminate the agreement a few years early. The second phase of the trial is Thursday, and it is there where the Judge will determine how much 4Kids owes TV Tokyo, if any, concerning the audit dispute. If 4Kids wins the first phase and keeps all shows for 5 years, then it really doesn't even matter what happens Thursday, as it will be considered a huge win for 4Kids. Even if 4Kids loses the rights, then it is likely they won't owe much when the Thursday determination is made about the audit dispute.

    They will have a viable business going forward, no matter what, as it evidenced by their Fall Schedule. They have every one of those shows for quite a while, no matter what the results next week.

    There is a small possibility of a delay on the trial if the Hurricane hits New York at that time, but I really doubt it.


    [TABLE="width: 90%, align: center"][TR][TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]12:00 PM[/TD][/TR][TR][TD] [/TD][TD="width: 75%"]11-11607-scc 4Kids Entertainment, Inc. Ch. 11[/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][TD] [/TD][TD="width: 75%"] Adversary proceeding: 11-02225-scc TV Tokyo Corporation et al v. 4Kids Entertainment, Inc.
    TRIAL

    [/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][TD] [/TD][TD="width: 75%, bgcolor: #dddddd"]Doc# 249 Motion Of The Debtors For Entry Of An Interim Order On An Ex-Parte Basis And A Final Order Establishing Notification And Hearing Procedures For Transfers Of Certain Equity Securities, filed by Michael B. Solow on behalf of 4Kids Entertainment, Inc.

    [/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

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