The official "Avatar the last airbender" speculation thread.

**Dakkoth** · 11-22-2005, 10:43 AM

Well, if I can figure out my VCR, I may tape it since I will be at my Mother-In-Law's house for Thanksgiving.

**Delthayre** · 11-22-2005, 08:53 PM

Iroh dying could certainly be a catalyst for some dramatic shift in Zuko, which way said shift would go or what form and consequences it would have would vary dependant upon who was responsible for Iroh's being killed. In any case, Zuko and Iroh certainly seem tightly bound, I suspect perhaps more deeply than some sense of pride or summat might allow either to show, and the young prince would almost certainly be shaken by such an event.

I'd be a bit put out too since Iroh is my favorite character, and Mako gives him such a delightful voice.

Actually, I wonder if Iroh might be orchestrating something of a coup against Ozai by continuing to support and guide Zuko. He certainly has the ability as a strategist and I could see him having a sincere desire to remove the apparently tyrannical Ozai from the throne, but I somehow doubt that Iroh desires the title of Fire Lord for himself. Zuko could be either Iroh's intended proxy for rulership, or perhaps a legitimate attempt to win the Fire Nation some redemption. There almost has to be some aspect of that in them as the characters have been portrayed in do deep and bright a light for them to be in the same depraved class of much of the Fire Nation's leadershpi.

In any case, I wouldn't want Zuko to simply switch sides. Besides probably being unconvincing, it would also rob the show of a dramatic aspect. Having his change of perspective or intent be subtler and more ambiguous would work to the show's advantage.

The actual mechanics of firebenders against waterbenders intrigue me. Normally waterbenders are at a disadvantage since their access to their required element is limited, but at the north pole they'll have an abundant supply of water and a seemingly creative fighting style. I suppose it could come down to whether fire vaporizes water or water quenches fire and how well the fire nation's army can withstand cold. General Winter saved Russia more than once, I should think he could be a valuable tool of the water tribe (who, I should hope, are subtler tacticians than Stalin)

Aang's capabilities after having acquired some capability with water, which I assume he will have by the time of the invasion (fleets do take some time to get from place to place, especially if they have to contend with arctic waters), pose an interesting point of speculation as well. I could see him merely switching elements as each situation demands, but it would be more interesting to see him attempt to use the elements in combination.

Another dynamic to consider is whether or not the water tribe will intercept the fire nation's fleet before it reaches the city. I would think that the waterbenders would be at a distinct advantage in any naval action.

**Anyone00** · 11-23-2005, 03:56 AM

Everyone seem to be forgetting that Zuko most likely has a younger sister (Zula possibly):

Exhibit A Exhibit B (both from the ep. "The Storm")

And she seem to have a sadistic streak in her.

I have a feeling the Fire Lord should really watch what he eats.

**RoboHobo** · 11-23-2005, 09:10 PM

I have a feeling that the Fire Nation's fleet of ships will actually turn into flying hot air balloons. Zhao knows the water benders are tough so this newly acquired technology will give him the advantage. After all, the water benders could just freeze all of the incoming ships in the water.

**Delthayre** · 11-23-2005, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Anyone00

Everyone seem to be forgetting that Zuko most likely has a younger sister (Zula possibly):

Exhibit A Exhibit B (both from the ep. "The Storm")

And she seem to have a sadistic streak in her.

I have a feeling the Fire Lord should really watch what he eats.

Hmmm, yes, I hadn't considered Zula. It may be as Zuko is Iroh's tool for obtaining power, and perhaps redemption, Zula could be Zhao's. The dear Admiral has no lack of ambition and if the demeanor portrayed in those images hold, Zula matches him in habits of cruelty. A perfect and compellingly duplicitous pairing.

**Akelexre** · 11-24-2005, 12:06 AM

"Iroh dying could certainly be a catalyst for some dramatic shift in Zuko, which way said shift would go or what form and consequences it would have would vary dependant upon who was responsible for Iroh's being killed..."

Yes.

The Firelord either directly killing Iroh or ordering his death (easy enough to see happening...for example, Zhao could turn and Iroh's assistance with the invasion could implicate him in Zhao's treason, leading to an execution) could easily bring instant clarity.

But if Iroh died in battle independent of the FL (i.e., if Zuko has no one to direct his rage against) I would expect him to become a lost soul for quite a while and to tetter (sp?) around on that same edge the deserter seems to live his life on...

"I'd be a bit put out too since Iroh is my favorite character, and Mako gives him such a delightful voice.

Actually, I wonder if Iroh might be orchestrating something of a coup against Ozai by continuing to support and guide Zuko. He certainly has the ability as a strategist and I could see him having a sincere desire to remove the apparently tyrannical Ozai from the throne, but I somehow doubt that Iroh desires the title of Fire Lord for himself. Zuko could be either Iroh's intended proxy for rulership, or perhaps a legitimate attempt to win the Fire Nation some redemption. There almost has to be some aspect of that in them as the characters have been portrayed in do deep and bright a light for them to be in the same depraved class of much of the Fire Nation's leadershpi."

Hm, interesting. I never gave much thought to Iroh's underlying motives, assuming there are any.

Iroh himself is an interesting guy. Famous throughout the whole world as one of the best generals on earth. Feared among military men. He seems deeply rooted in tradition and fighting (in the 1st episode he berates Zuko for his lack of fundamentals) and yet not particularly nationalistic, as he worries more about the welfare of his nephew then catching the Avatar and saving the Fire Nation.

That he could have almost anything he wants in this world, and yet chooses to follow his insensitive nephew on a crappy ship with a small, dubiously loyal crew, speaks much about him.

I don't think he gives a damn about the F.N., at least not compared to how much he cares for Zuko. He has never talked of his country or brother in a positve light ("My brother is not the understand type.") and seems more interested in going about the pleasures of retirement with his nephew.

"Aang's capabilities after having acquired some capability with water, which I assume he will have by the time of the invasion (fleets do take some time to get from place to place, especially if they have to contend with arctic waters), pose an interesting point of speculation as well. I could see him merely switching elements as each situation demands, but it would be more interesting to see him attempt to use the elements in combination."

Watching Aang finally get around to training with another element has got me to thinking about that also: there's no real point in mastering all 4 elements if they can't be used in battle at the same time.

I'm personally expecting some type of Jeet Kune Do, "I understand martial arts (all styles) so I have no one style in particular, but take the best of all styles and use them pragmatically."

Good points about his sister all. A Zuko/Iroh and Zula/Zhao arrangement would make for an interesting contrast. BTW: How do you guys know what her name is?

robohobo nailed it, I think, with the ships turning into balloons, otherwise water benders would just do the same thing they did to Appa in the water.

Don't think I'll get into the conversation about Roku, but I will say that we could definitely use a flashback or two...

Later,
Alexander

**creativerealms** · 11-24-2005, 12:02 PM

Iroh may die and be the catalyst for Zuko to shift sides but that would not have to be the end of Iroh. He is more atuned to the spirit world then most people. He was able to see Roku's dragon. He could still guide Zuko from beyond the grave.

Why is Iroh helping Zuko? Why did he throw away everything for his exiled nephew? I believe that he sees himself in Zuko. That he could have changed things but was unable to stand up for what he believes in. That in Zuko he has a chance to make up for the mistakes he made and change the fire nation.

The relationship between Ozai and Iroh probably mimics that between Zuko and his sister and Iroh now sees a chance to make up for it by changing Zuko's future.

Zuko's change I see it happening, it's already happening (The storm and Blue spirit) and I always saw one option until today. I thought that Zuko was so stuborn that he would have to hand his father the Avatar and not regain his honor to learn that he never had a chance in the first place. He was sent after the Avatar because Ozai never expected him to resurface. Once the Avatar returned Ozai sent Zhao after the Avatar so he does not have to give his son his honor back. He never planned to and still won't even if Zuko brings him the avatar.

**Bubblegum Girl** · 11-24-2005, 02:27 PM

Here's my speculations on Avatar:

-The main villain might probably be an evil Avatar that probably escaped death and cause the 100 year war.
-Aang might probably befriend some firebenders who are related to Zuko
-Aang might probably finder the remaining Air Benders(It's most unlikely due to the title

)

**Akelexre** · 11-24-2005, 06:04 PM

Geeking out on the marathon right now.

Random question: how the hell is Zhao moving up the career ladder so fast? When he's first intro'ed in ep. 3, he mentions he was recently promoted, and here in the "Red Spirit" he was made an Admiral.

Why? And isn't this an insanely fast career track for somone who actually hasn't accomplished all that much.

--Alexander

PS: Iroh is the ultimate hustler. That is all.

**creativerealms** · 11-24-2005, 07:55 PM

Simple Ozai does not want Zuko to get the Avatar and Zhao is the only other high ranking soldier to get close to him. So by giving Zhao more power he can stop his son from getting the Avatar. At least thats what I figure. It could have been any high ranking soldier Zhao just happened to be the one closest to Zuko and therefore the Avatar as well.

**kaine23** · 11-24-2005, 10:19 PM

Getting caught up with the marathon now. Gotta wonder what the next book is..

**Akelexre** · 11-24-2005, 11:49 PM

Well, there probably won't be an Air book as Aang is already top tier in that.

Water is going on right now.

He's already proven he needs to learn fire last.

So I would guess the next book is Earth.

About Zuko/Ozai, creativerealms: why would he want to stop his son from catching the Avatar? Sending his dishonored son to find the Avatar is a win/win situation: either he limps away in disgrace never to return and dirty the FL's name, or he actually *finds* the Avatar, becomes known as the "Man who captured the Avatar!" regains his honor and becomes a worthy successor. I see no reason for the FL to purposely hinder Zuko from catching him, but I do believe you're very much on to something when raise *why* Zhao is moving up the cooperate ladder so fast. He's the only "official" FL commander to come close to catching the Avatar so it makes sense he'd be moved up.

--Alexander

**I.R Joey** · 11-25-2005, 12:15 AM

After seeing the Blue Spirit again has anyone gotten the idea that Iroh suggested the idea of stealing Aang?

And I think the next major villan might be an evil Avatar, for some reason, or a wizard.

**creativerealms** · 11-25-2005, 09:01 AM

Thats just it, he only sent his son after the Avatar because at that time he thought the Avatar would never resurface. Ozai seems to not want to restore his son's honor, and sent him on the Avatar quest to get get rid of him, maybe hoping his son would die on this wild goose chase. Now that Zuko is so close to getting the Avatar Ozai still wants to make sure his son fails and that is where Zhao comes in.

Thats why I believed for the longest time that the only way Zuko would learn the truth about his father and his people would be to hand him the Avatar. Ozai does not seem to want to fullfil his part of the bargin, so who knows what he will do to his own son if he gave him the Avatar?

I don't see an evil Avatar, at least not a living evil avatar. Only one Avatar can live at a time and the next one is not choosen until the last one dies. Wait there are ways around that. They can do like in Buffy and say that an Avatar was dead long enough for the cycle to move on but was then resesitated. Or they could make the evil Avatar a spirit and has him/her try to take over Aang's body.

**Waylaid** · 11-25-2005, 01:54 PM

Few speculations:

What happened between Avatar Roku & Fire Lord Sozen hundred years ago? Why would Roku take on the Fire Lord? What did Roku disagree with Sozen upon?

Could Sozen & Roku be the same guy?

Sokka: Judging from the many episodes, Sokka's more of a brain guy than a brawn guy, yet he doesn't seem to admit it. Still his genius is proven as evidenced in episodes such as Northern Air Temple & Jet.

Is Aang capable of gathering the spirits of many Avatars before him within himself?

More speculation:

In every season, Aang will pick up benders and persons from their corresponding tribe according to the season's cylce of Water, Earth, & Fire. Since in Water, Aang picks up Katara & Sokka from the Water Tribe, there's a possibility that Zuko and another from the Fire Nation will be picked in the Fire cycle, and so logically, someone important from the Earth Kingdom will be picked to join Aang & co. in the Earth cycle.

**Rasputin** · 11-29-2005, 09:06 AM

It isn't possible for Sozoun and Roku to be the same person. For one thing, Roku is dead and Aang is alive when Sozoun was still plotting the war. How Roku came to know everything is another matter. Maybe since both Roku and Aang are the same person, Roku automatically knew everything Aang had seen but had a better idea of what was going on than Aang did? I dunno...

However, a proper motive for why the war started in the first place is definitely something I'd like the series to touch on eventually. The war seems to be allegorical to the war between Japan and China in the early 20th Century, with the Fire Nation (aggressive naval power) as Japan and the Earth Kingdom (huge continental country fighting defensively and ineffectually for long periods of time) as China. Japan's motivation was its lack of natural resources, so maybe the cause was something the Earth Kingdom did, considering that the Fire Nation doesn't seem too capable of growing its own food. There might have been some kind of trade dispute where the Earth Kingdom was chafing under its obligation to supply resources to the Fire Nation when the Fire Nation had precious little to give in return, a dispute which Avatar Roku defused (presumably with charges of "favouritism!" coming from the Earth Kingdom crowd).

When the Avatar disappeared, the Earth Kingdom could have used the opportunity to cut off its exports to the Fire Nation, and so the Fire Nation, with its boundless superiority complex, decided that it wasn't going to take this kind of abuse and plotted a terrible revenge, using the once-in-a-century passing of the comet to its advantage, killing off the airbenders so that the Avatar couldn't return and make them give back the territory they conquered. The short-termism of the leadership, however, led to a long and protracted conflict where the goal had morphed from simply securing natural resources to genocidal world conquest. Wars are like that, y'see.

And the question of Aang gathering the spirits before him within himself is a bit of a moot point since by definition he IS the spirits before him gathered in himself.

Although the story is supposed to end after mastering fire, I kind of hope they make the ending a more multi-faceted affair. For example: there could very well be some 'final test' that Aang needs to face before he can be said to have mastered each element. During the course of the series, he masters each and every element BUT...how about, as soon as he masters fire, with a showdown against the Fire Lord (or in all probability a suped-up Zhao) approaching, they are all dismayed to find that Aang never entirely mastered air!? That the final, vital, test never took place, and in fact he's been gradually losing his skill since he's been concentrating on all the other elements? That would be a definite "against all odds" battle if the Avatar has to go in without being a full Avatar. But the important matter would be the aftermath...

Final book: air. Taking place in the autumn. Iroh has installed Zuko as the new Fire Lord and peace has been declared. Is that the end of it all? Heck no...during the War the Fire Nation sent millions of settlers to the conqured Earth Kingdom lands to set up colonies. Over the course of 100 years these colonies have taken on a culture and identity of their own, whole families have grown up in these cities, and as far as they're concerned, these are their homes. But to the displaced Earth Kingdom refugees, these people are trespassers and thieves, and they're going to be out for revenge. Despite the protestations of Aang and co., sectarian violence ensues, and there's little Aang can do about it...because he's not a full Avatar yet.

So the last book (season) could be of Aang trying to find out all he can about his ancestors and their secrets, to get in touch with his heritage and find out what he must do. But now, there's no one left to help him.

I dunno...I just think it'd be rather fascinating to have something start off as the Battle of Middle-Earth and have it end up like Sarajevo.

A well-placed injection of harsh reality into a fantasy sphere. Things don't have clear-cut endings...only compromises.

**adoptedBatpuppy** · 11-29-2005, 10:59 AM

Ahh! I missed so many episodes that I feel lousy, when is the 1 hour finale going to air? Is there going to be a second season to Avatar right afterwards?

**Rasputin** · 11-29-2005, 12:09 PM

Eh. Friday evening, I guess.

**I.R Joey** · 11-30-2005, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rasputin

It isn't possible for Sozoun and Roku to be the same person. For one thing, Roku is dead and Aang is alive when Sozoun was still plotting the war. How Roku came to know everything is another matter. Maybe since both Roku and Aang are the same person, Roku automatically knew everything Aang had seen but had a better idea of what was going on than Aang did? I dunno...

However, a proper motive for why the war started in the first place is definitely something I'd like the series to touch on eventually. The war seems to be allegorical to the war between Japan and China in the early 20th Century, with the Fire Nation (aggressive naval power) as Japan and the Earth Kingdom (huge continental country fighting defensively and ineffectually for long periods of time) as China. Japan's motivation was its lack of natural resources, so maybe the cause was something the Earth Kingdom did, considering that the Fire Nation doesn't seem too capable of growing its own food. There might have been some kind of trade dispute where the Earth Kingdom was chafing under its obligation to supply resources to the Fire Nation when the Fire Nation had precious little to give in return, a dispute which Avatar Roku defused (presumably with charges of "favouritism!" coming from the Earth Kingdom crowd).

When the Avatar disappeared, the Earth Kingdom could have used the opportunity to cut off its exports to the Fire Nation, and so the Fire Nation, with its boundless superiority complex, decided that it wasn't going to take this kind of abuse and plotted a terrible revenge, using the once-in-a-century passing of the comet to its advantage, killing off the airbenders so that the Avatar couldn't return and make them give back the territory they conquered. The short-termism of the leadership, however, led to a long and protracted conflict where the goal had morphed from simply securing natural resources to genocidal world conquest. Wars are like that, y'see.

And the question of Aang gathering the spirits before him within himself is a bit of a moot point since by definition he IS the spirits before him gathered in himself.

Although the story is supposed to end after mastering fire, I kind of hope they make the ending a more multi-faceted affair. For example: there could very well be some 'final test' that Aang needs to face before he can be said to have mastered each element. During the course of the series, he masters each and every element BUT...how about, as soon as he masters fire, with a showdown against the Fire Lord (or in all probability a suped-up Zhao) approaching, they are all dismayed to find that Aang never entirely mastered air!? That the final, vital, test never took place, and in fact he's been gradually losing his skill since he's been concentrating on all the other elements? That would be a definite "against all odds" battle if the Avatar has to go in without being a full Avatar. But the important matter would be the aftermath...

Final book: air. Taking place in the autumn. Iroh has installed Zuko as the new Fire Lord and peace has been declared. Is that the end of it all? Heck no...during the War the Fire Nation sent millions of settlers to the conqured Earth Kingdom lands to set up colonies. Over the course of 100 years these colonies have taken on a culture and identity of their own, whole families have grown up in these cities, and as far as they're concerned, these are their homes. But to the displaced Earth Kingdom refugees, these people are trespassers and thieves, and they're going to be out for revenge. Despite the protestations of Aang and co., sectarian violence ensues, and there's little Aang can do about it...because he's not a full Avatar yet.

So the last book (season) could be of Aang trying to find out all he can about his ancestors and their secrets, to get in touch with his heritage and find out what he must do. But now, there's no one left to help him.

I dunno...I just think it'd be rather fascinating to have something start off as the Battle of Middle-Earth and have it end up like Sarajevo.

A well-placed injection of harsh reality into a fantasy sphere. Things don't have clear-cut endings...only compromises.

Some interestng ideas you have going on there. But how is it possible to loose your bending abilities? Even if Aang is concentrating on the other elements he wouldn't loose his knowlege of airbending would he.

Two other questions I have.

1. If and when Aang dies wont the Avatar cycle be broken? I know that Zhao used reincarnation as an excuse not to kill Aang, but if he were to die there wouldn't be anymore Airbenders right? So the Fire nation wouldn't have to worry anymore right? Oh well.

And I still want to know what affiliation Jet's crew, the Kyoshi people, Jun and the others are.