toonzoneAnimation News : Blog : Forums : TV Schedules : Wiki : Comics : Hosted : CD! : Forums  
Loading

toonzone forums - Powered by vBulletin

View Poll Results: Rate and Comment - Avengers Assemble "Ghost of a Chance"

Voters
11. You may not vote on this poll
  • *****

    2 18.18%
  • ****1/2

    0 0%
  • ****

    2 18.18%
  • ***1/2

    1 9.09%
  • ***

    4 36.36%
  • *

    0 0%
  • **

    1 9.09%
  • *1/2

    0 0%
  • *

    0 0%
  • 1/2

    1 9.09%
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4
Results 61 to 63 of 63
  1. #61
    TheMadSlasher is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    183
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Like This Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by suss2it View Post
    To be fair we live in a society where violence against women is very taboo. So yeah it'd be very jarring to see Hulk throw Black Widow across the room over a cookie and yet not so if he were to do it to Clint. That's just the world we live in right now.
    A fair point, I absolutely accept. But then again we could argue that this is part of Mary Sueism since Mary Sues tend to be simultaneously perfectly-impossibly-feminine-princesses whilst also being absolute BAMFs Who No One Dares Trifle With. Although to be fair, Black Widow as a character is ALL ABOUT exploiting traditional femininity in order to capitalize on being underestimated, so this part of the trope may not really apply.

    If Widow was as flawless and perfect as you make her seem wouldn't she have avoided getting brainwashed (along with everyone else) in episode 2 and avoid getting captured by the phantoms in ep 3?
    Compare her characterization to Clint's (Clint, being an human SHIELD agent, is the closest thing to a "similarly situated" character to Widow (who has been portrayed as a baseline human in this continuity, MCU and also AEMH)). Who's always the BAMF and who's used as the joke?

    But the situations you bring up are ones where Widow is treated equally to the rest of the team. These are all good but the problem is there are too many counterexamples. Take, for instance, Widow's role in the first two episodes. The men are portrayed as incompetent and need Guardian Angel Natasha to watch over them. And also note Widow's continued aloofness from the team and not really being a "member" unless she feels like it... she's set apart from them and treated as special.

    First of all being more competent than everyone else doesn't make her a Mary Sue and second of all no she hasn't. Tony Stark has pretty much been the smartest guy in the room since day one.
    Consistency is important here. In Tony's case, during the two-part pilot his intelligence goes up and down like a yo-yo with him going between unjustifiably rash hotheaded stupidity and tactical brilliance in the space of three seconds. Widow on the other hand is ALWAYS totally levelheaded and knows exactly what to do and saves ALL of the guys. Now, yes, Natasha's an extremely-trained spy and Tony's a civilian playboy manic nerd but Tony's complete inconsistency in the first two episodes is infuriating.

    Additionally, being competent in one specific area, being the best in one specific area, is totally fine. The problem is when someone is made more competent IN EVERYTHING than anyone else. Tony's brain and tech skills are balanced out by Tony's lack of "warm and fuzzy"/"motivational"/"Team shrink" style people skills, whilst Cap has plenty of those but is likely somewhat incompetent with tech. Have we ever seen Widow lacking in skills which she needs, and having to rely on the other team members?

    And Falcon was the guy who got to save the day in ep 3 and Widow didn't even appear in ep 4.
    Like I said, I'm only going on the limited amount of episodes we've currently seen. MoA can certainly improve the portrayal of the characters if they wish, and my criticisms can easily be addressed.

    And yeah she hasn't been the but of any joke so far but neither has Captain America. So he is too a Gary Stu?
    For one, Sue-ness/Stu-ness is usually a combination of things rather than one isolated factor. Simply not being the butt of every joke isn't enough. You are right that Cap hasn't been the butt of jokes... he's had a positive portrayal. But has he been portrayed as "more" special than everyone else? I'd argue not.

    As for the issue of Cap and Gary Sueness, I won't lie but obviously the character CAN be easily turned into one. But this doesn't have to happen. AEMH and AA so far have both avoided it.

    Explain to me exactly the difference in character portrayal of Widow between A: EMH and AA please and how she isn't a Mary Sue in the former but somehow is one in the latter. Don't remember at any point Widow showing her flaws and vulnerabilities in A: EMH.
    AEMH Natasha, for one, was portrayed as a villain for much of the series. She doesn't save everyone all the time and no one else's competence is dragged down to make her better (she's established as a superior hand-to-hand combatant than Hawkeye, but their skill levels are kept consistent rather than Clint suddenly becoming worse when Natasha walks into the room). We even see her vulnerable, with her asking for the Avengers' help at the start of Hail Hydra. And you can TELL she's torn up over having to fake-betray Clint (listen to her tone of voice during the later parts of of "Widow's Sting"). Yep, feelings!

  2. #62
    suss2it's Avatar
    suss2it is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    5,543
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMadSlasher View Post
    Compare her characterization to Clint's (Clint, being an human SHIELD agent, is the closest thing to a "similarly situated" character to Widow (who has been portrayed as a baseline human in this continuity, MCU and also AEMH)). Who's always the BAMF and who's used as the joke?
    Both have been BAMFs so far, but yeah Clint's been used as a joke more than Natasha, but I'd say that's more because his character lends to more comedy moments than hers.

    But the situations you bring up are ones where Widow is treated equally to the rest of the team. These are all good but the problem is there are too many counterexamples. Take, for instance, Widow's role in the first two episodes. The men are portrayed as incompetent and need Guardian Angel Natasha to watch over them. And also note Widow's continued aloofness from the team and not really being a "member" unless she feels like it... she's set apart from them and treated as special.
    And again, Falcon saved the day in ep 3, does that make him a Gary Stu? Widow was of no help in that episode either. Are Mary Sues usually portrayed as useless?

    Consistency is important here. In Tony's case, during the two-part pilot his intelligence goes up and down like a yo-yo with him going between unjustifiably rash hotheaded stupidity and tactical brilliance in the space of three seconds. Widow on the other hand is ALWAYS totally levelheaded and knows exactly what to do and saves ALL of the guys. Now, yes, Natasha's an extremely-trained spy and Tony's a civilian playboy manic nerd but Tony's complete inconsistency in the first two episodes is infuriating.
    I feel like this explains things better than I could've.

    Additionally, being competent in one specific area, being the best in one specific area, is totally fine. The problem is when someone is made more competent IN EVERYTHING than anyone else. Tony's brain and tech skills are balanced out by Tony's lack of "warm and fuzzy"/"motivational"/"Team shrink" style people skills, whilst Cap has plenty of those but is likely somewhat incompetent with tech. Have we ever seen Widow lacking in skills which she needs, and having to rely on the other team members?
    Except she was never made more competent in everything. She isn't the most brilliant person when it comes to tech, that goes to Iron Man than Falcon. She hasn't shown much strategizing either, that usually falls on Iron Man too.

    Have you watched ep 3? She, along with the rest of the team had to rely on Falcon to save them. Other than that no she hasn't explicitly needed to rely on other team members so, but neither has Hawkeye or Hulk.

    For one, Sue-ness/Stu-ness is usually a combination of things rather than one isolated factor. Simply not being the butt of every joke isn't enough. You are right that Cap hasn't been the butt of jokes... he's had a positive portrayal. But has he been portrayed as "more" special than everyone else? I'd argue not.
    I'd argue that neither has Widow.

    AEMH Natasha, for one, was portrayed as a villain for much of the series. She doesn't save everyone all the time and no one else's competence is dragged down to make her better (she's established as a superior hand-to-hand combatant than Hawkeye, but their skill levels are kept consistent rather than Clint suddenly becoming worse when Natasha walks into the room). We even see her vulnerable, with her asking for the Avengers' help at the start of Hail Hydra. And you can TELL she's torn up over having to fake-betray Clint (listen to her tone of voice during the later parts of of "Widow's Sting"). Yep, feelings!
    All good points, and I will say that AEMH did great character work but that doesn't mean I think Widow is a Mary Sue here either.

    I think the root of the problem is two-fold, not enough women to compare and contrast Widow with and generally flat 2D-characterization throughout the show. All the Avengers are pretty much one-note cardboard cut-outs of themselves at this stage anyway so I can see how some could see Widow's characterization coming off as Mary Sueish. Falcon so far is the only one that got a spotlight episode and to me is the only one that comes across the most human so far. Hopefully future spotlight episodes will do that with the rest of the cast.

  3. #63
    TheMadSlasher is offline Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    183
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by suss2it View Post
    Both have been BAMFs so far, but yeah Clint's been used as a joke more than Natasha, but I'd say that's more because his character lends to more comedy moments than hers.
    True, but there's a difference between being funny and being the butt of the joke. The former is about saying something funny. The latter involves being humiliated. People laugh with the former and laugh at the latter.

    And again, Falcon saved the day in ep 3, does that make him a Gary Stu? Widow was of no help in that episode either. Are Mary Sues usually portrayed as useless?
    Falcon is an Audience Surrogate. Shows like this typically have an episode or two where the Audience Surrogate saves the day. We expect an "Audience Surrogate is really awesome" episode to come along here and there, so it isn't excessive to have an episode like Ep 3. Given we've only seen four episodes so far, all these judgments are necessarily tentative (and as I said my concerns re. Widow may be disproven over time).

    If, on the other hand, we have ten episodes in a row like ep 3, I'd absolutely agree that Falcon was being made a Stu.

    I feel like this explains things better than I could've.
    Being a civillian manic playboy nerd doesn't justify the bizzare level of yo-yo-brain which we saw in Tony in the first two episodes. Tony Stark is smart enough to not be like that. Hotheadedness isn't brain damage.

    Except she was never made more competent in everything. She isn't the most brilliant person when it comes to tech, that goes to Iron Man than Falcon. She hasn't shown much strategizing either, that usually falls on Iron Man too.
    That's true, because we hardly see her. When we DO see her, however, she's the one that saves everybody (or does something which no one else would dare to... i.e. taunting Hulk over cookies).

    Have you watched ep 3? She, along with the rest of the team had to rely on Falcon to save them. Other than that no she hasn't explicitly needed to rely on other team members so, but neither has Hawkeye or Hulk.
    Hulk teams up with Thor regularly, and Hawkeye hasn't been infallible whereas Widow has never failed when fighting an enemy (so far).

    I think the root of the problem is two-fold, not enough women to compare and contrast Widow with and generally flat 2D-characterization throughout the show. All the Avengers are pretty much one-note cardboard cut-outs of themselves at this stage anyway so I can see how some could see Widow's characterization coming off as Mary Sueish. Falcon so far is the only one that got a spotlight episode and to me is the only one that comes across the most human so far. Hopefully future spotlight episodes will do that with the rest of the cast.
    On this, I absolutely agree with you. We've seen only four episodes, Widow is the only woman on the team, and the show is hardly concerned with deep and multifaceted characterization (at least so far). As such, we haven't had deep and well-fleshed-out characterizations in the first place.

    I will however make an addition to your point... I think that Widow's characterization should be measured against the male cast members too. Mary Sueism and Gary Stuism are both gendered tropes, and an heavy emphasis on "femininity = special" is part of Mary Sueism, so I think differential treatment between cast members is STILL a legitimate way to measure Mary Sueism even in a script which abides by The Smurfette Principle (i.e. multiple different male characters + "the chick" female character).

    I think we'd both be on the same side with respect to wanting more developed characterizations in the future, so we don't oppose each other there. Perhaps I am being a bit unfair on MoA given how the series has only had four episodes and I'm still bitter over AEMH etc... and maybe after reading MCU fanfic where Natasha is a Sue-By-Default I'm a little hypervigilant towards "signs of sueness." So I can understand if you think I'm being unfair/hasty.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 
toonzone quick jump
This community is listed in
the mega forums index project
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO