G.I. Joe Renegades - "Going Underground" - Talkback [07/09]

[The Huntsman]

Today @ 7:30 PM ET on The Hub

There are only three episodes left, including this one. I hope they make them count. I still don't believe there will be a second season, so I'm hoping that as many plot threads get resolved as possible.

While investigating an earthquake, the Joes discover underground tunnels being constructed by Cobra.

[Mandouga]

I don't think some viewers are going to like the way Scarlett is portrayed in this episode. After getting hit on the head, she starts going into depair, and giving into fear, and starts giving up (which is made clear by Scarlett pulling out a family heirloom thinking this was it for her, and saying she didn't want it buried with her), and has to have a man (in this case, Duke) pull her out of it. In short, this episode reveals Scarlett as being one of those female characters who appears to be tough and fearless on the outside, but is all just a front for hiding her "true" feelings. I'm personally disappointed in the way she was written here, but that's just me. In any case, I just think Scarlett could have been written a little better in this episode.

[trance2009]

Liked how Snake Eyes showcased his jealousy at that.

[BonnieB21:-)]

I don't have any problems with Scarlett's portrayal in "Going Underground". I like to see the psychological effects of what the Average Joes are going through.

I figured at some point there'd be a-trapped-in-a-cave-in-bonding moment on this show. It could've gone either hero/villian or hero/heroine and either Duke, Snake Eyes, or Scarlett could've been the injured party. Of course since Duke was just presumed dead in "Castle Destro" it would have to be Scarlett.

Scarlett does have a concussion and is trapped under rubble (apparently her leg is A-Okay while Roadblock's leg is injured!). Not one of the rest of the team has bothered or worried enough to check on them, good thing the cavern wasn't flooding. So to her and him things looked pretty dire. And frankly considering how bad the last 6 months have been for "The Springfield Four/Five" no wonder Scarlett's depressed. Let's just list the facts:

1. Being chased by Flint's Falcons
2. Beng accused of a crime they didn't commit
3. Not being able to go home
4. No place where they can stay for any length of time- to get a good night's sleep, a good meal, wash and change clothes
5. And it's all HER IDEA/FAULT which is enough to make anyone depressed/feel guilty.
6.The constant threat of Cobra, or Major Bludd, or Storm Shadow attacking, kidnapping, or killing them.

The idea that Scarlett doesn't have any other friends or family bugs me. It doesn't make her look good to the "public" that she's a crazed, loner conspiracy theory nut who's obessessed with Cobra Industries. I hope she still has her three brothers in this universe.

What is curious is that there seems to be another triangle brewing here: Tunnel Rat has always been vocal in his dislike of Ripcord. I was thinking it was because he wanted to be the main annoying humor guy on this show. Now it seems like Ripcord is gunning for the position of Roadblock's best friend. And I don't think TR's going to like it.

I called it that the last 3 episodes of Renegades would be interesting from the S/D/SE triangle and it didn't disappoint at all. The problem is that it's hard to tell what Snake Eyes' reactions are. The close up of him when they found "The Cave Of The Two Lovers" could've been shock, sadness, relief, disappointment, anger, all of the above, or none of the above. I think the fact that he used to be her ONLY or FIRST friend, might've made him feel threatened in a way he hadn't felt in all this time. He rode off alone at the end of this episode like he does many times during EVERY episode. How do we (the audience, Duke, or Scarlett) know what he's supposed to be feeling, when he can't express himself?!?

Every time I see the Headless Motorcylcle rider in Durarara!! I can't help but wonder why Snake Eyes doesn't text everyone like it does? It's the new millienium people there's no excuse for Snake Eyes not to being able to communicate with others. If Stephen Hawking can use a voice to text vocalizer why can't Snake Eyes!!!!!!

And I also called The M.A.S.S. Transit Device, which is so far much less awesome than the M.A.S.S. Device of the ARAH.

The Hub started airing a preview for next week's episode "Revelations" already during Hubworld. They haven't promoted new episodes of Renegades in MONTHS and they made new commercial bumpers for the show too. I'm glad to see the cast line up ones that show all the Joes and all the Cobras instead of just the Snake Eyes show.

[Gold Guy]

I didn't care much for this episode. The show only has two episodes left, and yet nothing really important happened in this episode. Sure, Scarlett's necklace was strange, and Baroness hinted at another master plan, but this episode felt...empty.

[Ioz]

I thought this episode was ok. I am hoping they will tie up a lot of things before the "hiatus", but I'm getting the feeling that they won't.

[Eivion]

Every time I see the Headless Motorcylcle rider in Durarara!! I can't help but wonder why Snake Eyes doesn't text everyone like it does? It's the new millienium people there's no excuse for Snake Eyes not to being able to communicate with others. If Stephen Hawking can use a voice to text vocalizer why can't Snake Eyes!!!!!!

They are on the run. Cell phones can be tracked.

[TheVileOne]

Yet they clearly carry around wireless devices. And Scarlett has communication with her "sources" and Mainframe via some form of wireless communication.

Now on the other hand, I love Durarara!! that's a more mature anime series. And with Celty, the texting with her phone and her chatroom personality is a big part of her character. Now with GI Joe, with Snake Eyes he usually communicates via sign language as part of his character. This is a kid's show. I guess it is too hard to visualize a speechless ninja talking in sign language. But I mean, I bet he could still write something down or type something out since he is a ninja and all.

As for the Duke/Scarlett thing, I'm not surprised they went this way. Again it is a kid's show, and I guess in a show like this you can't have a Snake Eyes type character getting together with Scarlett. Just like there can't be actual guns. And like I said for weeks, they've been building up to this for a while. Look no further than Duke rescuing Scarlett with Scarlett saying, "My hero." Ick.

[Hordesman]

The idea that Scarlett doesn't have any other friends or family bugs me. It doesn't make her look good to the "public" that she's a crazed, loner conspiracy theory nut who's obessessed with Cobra Industries.

It could be an issue of her being estranged from her family, that they've sided with Cobra or something.

[BonnieB21:-)]

Yet they clearly carry around wireless devices. And Scarlett has communication with her "sources" and Mainframe via some form of wireless communication.

Now on the other hand, I love Durarara!! that's a more mature anime series. And with Celty, the texting with her phone and her chatroom personality is a big part of her character. Now with GI Joe, with Snake Eyes he usually communicates via sign language as part of his character. This is a kid's show. I guess it is too hard to visualize a speechless ninja talking in sign language. But I mean, I bet he could still write something down or type something out since he is a ninja and all.

As for the Duke/Scarlett thing, I'm not surprised they went this way. Again it is a kid's show, and I guess in a show like this you can't have a Snake Eyes type character getting together with Scarlett. Just like there can't be actual guns. And like I said for weeks, they've been building up to this for a while. Look no further than Duke rescuing Scarlett with Scarlett saying, "My hero." Ick.

I won't say that Duke & Scarlett are in LOVE . I think they are attracted to each other. She did pick Duke specifically out of ALL the men in the army. And he reaches out to her emotionally while she continues to be guarded/stunted. I don't want whatever they might get going to be like Jean & Paul on Superjail said, "Based on convenience and limited choices".

This is a "quote" from one of the Renegades producers:

G.I. Joe: Renegades cartoon (Scarlett and Snake Eyes have a humorous love/hate relationship. Scarlett is an intelligence officer who treats most of the Joes with little respect except for Snake Eyes, and it's rumored amongst the team members that she and Snake Eyes are a lot closer than just "friends" or “mentor/student.”

I saw this awhile ago (from before Renegades premiered), but it's not completely accurate since it's Duke & Scarlett who had/have the love/hate relationship.

How will the team dynamic change after "Going Underground"? How will things be when/if the new season starts? Right now, I don't think anything has to/will change between Duke & Scarlett. There was no kissing or anything close to declarations of love. However, everyone else's opinions and behavior will change. You know, Tunnel Rat's big mouth will blabber all about how "close" Duke & Scarlett were.

Something else that should be noted is that at the end of the episode it's Duke still watching over Scarlett not Tunnel Rat the Medic or even Snake Eyes. And while Duke saved Scarlett's life by keeping her awake, she saved BOTH their lives by coming up with the way to wire the head set's so that Duke could send the S.O.S. So Scarlett's still sharp during this episode even with a head injury. As for her glowing red locket, it might have a family portrait in it. Or it might contain the red crystals, one of the critical 3 catalytic elements of The M.A.S.S. Transit Device!

The idea that Scarlett's family might've sided with Cobra is interesting. Some other conspiracy theories are that Cobra Commander IS Scarlett's Dad, or that she used to work for Cobra Industries or her father did. It looks like her father did though. Or that Scarlett was somehow involved with Snake Eyes' disfiguring accident.

[BonnieB21:-)]

Yet they clearly carry around wireless devices. And Scarlett has communication with her "sources" and Mainframe via some form of wireless communication.

Now on the other hand, I love Durarara!! that's a more mature anime series. And with Celty, the texting with her phone and her chatroom personality is a big part of her character. Now with GI Joe, with Snake Eyes he usually communicates via sign language as part of his character. This is a kid's show. I guess it is too hard to visualize a speechless ninja talking in sign language. But I mean, I bet he could still write something down or type something out since he is a ninja and all.

As for the Duke/Scarlett thing, I'm not surprised they went this way. Again it is a kid's show, and I guess in a show like this you can't have a Snake Eyes type character getting together with Scarlett. Just like there can't be actual guns. And like I said for weeks, they've been building up to this for a while. Look no further than Duke rescuing Scarlett with Scarlett saying, "My hero." Ick.

I won't say that Duke & Scarlett are in LOVE . I think they are attracted to each other. She did pick Duke specifically out of ALL the men in the army. And he reaches out to her emotionally while she continues to be guarded/stunted. I don't want whatever they might get going to be like Jean & Paul on Superjail said, "Based on convenience and limited choices".

This is a "quote" from one of the Renegades producers:

G.I. Joe: Renegades cartoon (Scarlett and Snake Eyes have a humorous love/hate relationship. Scarlett is an intelligence officer who treats most of the Joes with little respect except for Snake Eyes, and it's rumored amongst the team members that she and Snake Eyes are a lot closer than just "friends" or “mentor/student.”

I saw this awhile ago (from before Renegades premiered), but it's not completely accurate since it's Duke & Scarlett who had/have the love/hate relationship.

How will the team dynamic change after "Going Underground"? How will things be when/if the new season starts? Right now, I don't think anything has to/will change between Duke & Scarlett. There was no kissing or anything close to declarations of love. However, everyone else's opinions and behavior will change. You know, Tunnel Rat's big mouth will blabber all about how "close" Duke & Scarlett were.

Something else that should be noted is that at the end of the episode it's Duke still watching over Scarlett not Tunnel Rat the Medic or even Snake Eyes. And while Duke saved Scarlett's life by keeping her awake, she saved BOTH their lives by coming up with the way to wire the head set's so that Duke could send the S.O.S. So Scarlett's still sharp during this episode even with a head injury. As for her glowing red locket, it might have a family portrait in it. Or it might contain the red crystals, one of the critical 3 catalytic elements of The M.A.S.S. Transit Device!

The idea that Scarlett's family might've sided with Cobra is interesting. Some other conspiracy theories are that Cobra Commander IS Scarlett's Dad, or that she used to work for Cobra Industries or her father did. It looks like her father did though. Or that Scarlett was somehow involved with Snake Eyes' disfiguring accident.

[GWOtaku]

Scarlett was not lame in this episode. It was Scarlett who instructed Duke to construct that makeshift device in the hope that they could be discovered. They were in a seemingly hopeless situation, and she had a concussion and was on the verge of passing out at any moment...and she's supposed to be just the same as always or she's a damsel-in-distress stereotype? Meh. Meh, I say!

Every Joe in this series is imperfect...except for Snake Eyes. They're good people and good at what they do, but they have flawed and/or weak moments. This time is no different.

I do wonder how this season will finish at this point. Not much time left.

[BonnieB21:-)]

I would say that Snake Eyes is highly flawed in Renegades. Is he a "perfect fighting machine"? Yes. Is he a Gary Stu? No. He comes and goes as he pleases- doing his own thing most of the time, he doesn't travel with the team, he rarely participates in discussions, isn't overtly friendly to anybody else but Scarlett (yeah, he's saved almost everyone's life individually, but that doesn't make them all buddy-buddy), the fact that after 7 months together on the road and Scarlett's still the only one that can translate for Snake Eyes and nobody else has either picked up anything or bothered to try is VERY telling, plus he's not an accused member of "The Springfield Four/Five" so (were it not for Scarlett) he wouldn't even have a pet wolf in this fight.

Whether or not he has a personal grudge against Cobra Industries may come out in "Revelations".

In Renegades all Snake Eyes can do is fight, perform cool stunts, sword fight Storm Shadow, make overly dramatic rescues, and be Scarlett's pet ninja that follows her around like a lost puppy .

The previews for Revelations are interesting because they hint that Snake Eyes has been keeping something from Scarlett all this time.

Snake Eyes is constrained in his characterzation (in animation since ARAH and live action) by the Rule Of Cool.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

Comic fans always complain that Snake Eyes's romance with Scarlett is never depicted in any mainstream popular media. It will NEVER be done as long as Snake Eyes needs to be COOL more than he needs to be a WELL ROUNDED CHARACTER. To have a believable romance both characters have to show vulnerability- how does Snake Eyes do that when he's always masked and silent? Without it descending into mime? Vulnerability = Weakness and Snake Eyes can NEVER be shown as weak. In most post ARAH Joe toons, the width and breath of Snake Eyes and Scarlett's "relationship" comes down to her being captured and him rescuing her. Which does her character a GREAT DISSERVICE!!!!

I'm glad that Renegades didn't go beyond having Storm Shadow making vague threats at Scarlett. But the finale hints that they'll be SOMEBODY rescuing Scarlett from The Baroness.

ARAH Snake Eyes' is IMHO, a more well rounded character (despite his limited appearances). He had outside interests besides fighting (music and break dancing), he had a sense of humor, he was willing to sacrifice himself for his buddies (in The M.A.S.S. Device), and he could work with others BESIDES Scarlett. ARAH Snake Eyes did (almost) everything Renegades Snake Eyes does while HAVING FUN!!!

Sorry about the double post!

[TheVileOne]

I don't think the problem is with Snake-Eyes as a character, but with writers and executives who aren't bold or creative enough to do it or try it and do it well.

[BonnieB21:-)]

How could Snake Eyes' story be told effectively? I think instead of having every duel he gets into being Storm Shadow monologing while they fight, both characters should remain silent.

In my imagination, I toyed with the idea of ALL Snake Eyes' scenes and flashbacks in "Rise Of Cobra" (before it came out) being dialog free thus putting everyone on an equal level. It would take a director with a strong visual sense and an even stronger score composer to pull it off. But I can't imagine a major movie studio or a movie audience being able to sit through a silent movie. No matter how exciting.

Plus nobody seems to want to show him as an adult without the mask, even pre-scarring. The entire he was burned nearly to death saving Scarlett thing is too much of a downer for a big budget action movie. The man of mystery thing may be part of his mystique, but it hurts him a lot in story telling possiblities.

[Mandouga]

@Bonnie:

Actually, he does travel with the group, just not directly (i.e., he keeps a close eye on them from afar). As you pointed out, he isn't exactly in the same boat as them, and he knows that he's seen with them, Flint and/or the gov't might think he was part of the crime they didn't commit.

As for his overall portrayal in this show, I think does what it sets out to do, which (for now anyway) is fine by me. For that reason, TheVileOne, I disagree that the writers aren't being creative with him. To be exact, they don't really need to be. Long story short, if they were to try to be "creative" with his character or his portrayal, it could just as much detract from the rest of the series, and throw everything out of balance as much as it could enhance/improve the show. In the 24 episodes we've seen, I felt that--for the most part--all the various production values have been very good about being balanced w/o one thing overshadowing another; something that's often (but not always) been a problem with other shows. In fact, I had constantly feared that this show might have the same problems...in fact, it still can. For this reason, if they were to drop the ball by having Snake Eyes revealed to be a mole or something, I'm personally not going to be happy. It's true that Snake Eyes has his reasons for doing the things he does, but he's still supposed to be a good guy; that is, one that's on the Joes' side, and I'm really hoping that this show will play it straight and keep it that way. There really is no reason for this show to keep the viewers guessing, IMHO.

In all though, I really do hope that the Joes finally clear their names in this two part finale. That being said, I hope there isn't some kind of Deus Ex Machina that causes everything to go back to the status quo...

[BonnieB21:-)]

Yeah, I think that for the most part Renegades and Resolute didn't become "Snake Eyes Presents: The Snake Eyes' Show starring Snake Eyes & Storm Shadow!!!! (and some military organization and a terrorist group)".

Snake Eyes and Duke nearly equally share the amount of Big Darn Heroes Moments. Ripcord is starting to catch up though.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../BigDamnHeroes

I've always liked GI Joe's large scope and big cast of characters. In the second part of "Revelations" we might see a lot of the cami-Joes we've met along the way return for the big Cobra Industries assault/rescue of Scarlett.

The idea of Snake Eyes being "The Mole" is intriguing. The facts don't add up to him working against Scarlett all this time. The whole life on the run thing was exciting and fun until Scarlett started getting closer to Duke. Now it's time to put an end to it. Snake Eyes being misunderstood by the Joes as the Mole would be an interesting turn of events/set up for the next season. Hmmmmmm......

[suss2it]

I'm finally all caught up!

Now onto the episode itself. I think it was alright one. Didn't really move the main plot along at all, and I fee that the show is just waiting to get to it's finale at this point.

CC continues to threaten his most loyal employee. I don't get how anyone can be so loyal to a guy like him. His motivation for his staff can be summed up by saying"if you haven't done something for me later, you're dead". That's not way to inspire loyality amongst your underlings. Can't wait to see if there's gonna be some sort of fallout. And I have to mention again how awesome Adler is as the Commander.

I don't think some viewers are going to like the way Scarlett is portrayed in this episode. After getting hit on the head, she starts going into depair, and giving into fear, and starts giving up (which is made clear by Scarlett pulling out a family heirloom thinking this was it for her, and saying she didn't want it buried with her), and has to have a man (in this case, Duke) pull her out of it. In short, this episode reveals Scarlett as being one of those female characters who appears to be tough and fearless on the outside, but is all just a front for hiding her "true" feelings. I'm personally disappointed in the way she was written here, but that's just me. In any case, I just think Scarlett could have been written a little better in this episode.

I disagree completely. A character can be injured without being deemed a damsel-in-distress. It was only because of Scarlett that they even got out of there in the first place. And it's perfectly normal for someone who has a concussion to be afraid, but Scarlett didn't even show fear in the situation, she was accepting that she was gonna die. That to me is the opposite of fear.

If we put female characters on pedestal and say they can't be shown a certain way or doing certain things, we'll end up with a lot of 1 dimensional females. I see no problem in showing their vulnerabilities, fears, hopes etc.

[BonnieB21:-)]

After further reflection, when Tunnel Rat and Snake Eyes discover Duke & Scarlett in each other's arms in the "Cave of Two Lovers". He says, "Guess we should've seen that one coming, eh?" to Snake Eyes.

But I don't think he did at all. The audience did. I think Snake Eyes is supposed to be SHOCKED, BLIND SIDED, HAD NO IDEA, COMPLETELY CLUELESS. He misses most of the Average Joes daily interactions (motorcycle riding) and mostly sees Duke & Scarlet squabbling over leadership duties/Cobra. Of course his reactions are still suspect!

How much time does he even spend with Scarlett? Most times he goes on missions with her or has her riding on Zartan's motorcycle or saves her life. But thats not quaility time. The rest of the time he's ALONE!!! How much of a relationship do Renegades Scarlett & Snake Eyes have anyway? Is it enough for Snake Eyes to get jealous over?

I actually hope he and Scarlett get into an argument in "Revelations" just so that we can see how that would even work.

I also kinda hope all the mystery isn't given away just yet.

[sparkykandy]

Is going to ignore the whole love triangle thing that seems to be brewing and focus on the other stuff that happened in this episode. Well, it seems that this whole episode is just a lead up to the two-part season finale. Cobra's building tunnels, obviously, to transport something important, which I'm sure we'll find out what in the next two episodes.

On an unrelated note, I'm pretty sure that the whole threatening to kill your underlings thing is something that will come back to bite Cobra Commander in the future. Not sure if it will happen in the next two episodes, though.

Also, Scarlett's locket is obviously going to be important in the upcoming episodes; I'm sure of it.