The Greatest Historical Figure Ever/Up To This Point!

[cradleman]

people, we are not voting on the character of the people nominated, we are voting on their historicalness. who cares what someone's personal life was like if they are historical? i will only break voting on historicalness for 2 people that i can think of, Darwin and Marx. I will be putting Hitler in first place when he comes up. is it because he was a great man? no, he was as evil as evil can be, but i'd say he's pretty damn historical. so, yeah, people getting voted down because they were bad people kinda annoys me. just wanted to get that out.

[jph139]

4. Truman (Oh, I hate him. He dropped the atom bombs, needlessly killing - what's the number again? - of innocent lives in one of the most brutal, disgusting forms of death imaginable.)

Roughly 200,000 people. As opposed to THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF JAPAN, millions upon millions of American lives, and the complete economic destruction of the United States leaving the country open to attacks by the Soviet Union and all sorts of other enemies.

Japan would not stop in WWII. Really. They would go down fighting - the past 50 years or so had been a buildup of a cult of personality around Japan itself, and propaganda campaigns had been so efficient that, when American troops captured villages in the outlying islands, civilians were killing their children and themselves to avoid capture. And as far as expansion goes - they were absolutely HORRID. Millions of Filipinos had died rebelling against the United States since we took them from Spain... and when they imagined Japan coming in, they begged America to send more troops. The Rape of Nanking should speak for itself. Japan wanted to rule the world. Japan would not stop until every man, woman, and child had fought to the death. If we didn't drop the bombs, they all would have.

I mean, really, even when we did drop the bombs, they kept going. They were hit with the MOST DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON ON THE PLANET and they continued fighting. So we did it AGAIN, and if the EMPEROR HIMSELF hadn't stepped in, they would have kept going.

As Truman himself said, dropping the Atomic Bombs was not a hard choice. He did not mull it over. His staff didn't mull it over. The military, the government, and the public on the whole did not mull it over. They gave him the means, and it took him less than a moment to relay an order. It was the fastest way to end a war that would have outright destroyed two countries, and given the opportunity, I'd think less of a President that didn't.

people, we are not voting on the character of the people nominated, we are voting on their historicalness. who cares what someone's personal life was like if they are historical? i will only break voting on historicalness for 2 people that i can think of, Darwin and Marx. I will be putting Hitler in first place when he comes up. is it because he was a great man? no, he was as evil as evil can be, but i'd say he's pretty damn historical. so, yeah, people getting voted down because they were bad people kinda annoys me. just wanted to get that out.

I'm voting on "greatness." I mean, for Hitler - he rose to power in Germany, killed millions, and ended up absolutely wrecking his country. He was a doofus that bumbled his way to the top and a failure as a leader, so, he doesn't get too many points from me. Stalin, on the other hand? While he was a paranoid monster whose plans led to a near-genocide of his own people, he succeeded - he won in WWII, and he found Russia the laughing stock of the Western World and left is a superpower. So he's rather great, really, if still a bad person.

That's how I judge 'em, at least.

[cradleman]

Roughly 200,000 people. As opposed to THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF JAPAN, millions upon millions of American lives, and the complete economic destruction of the United States leaving the country open to attacks by the Soviet Union and all sorts of other enemies.

Japan would not stop in WWII. Really. They would go down fighting - the past 50 years or so had been a buildup of a cult of personality around Japan itself, and propaganda campaigns had been so efficient that, when American troops captured villages in the outlying islands, civilians were killing their children and themselves to avoid capture. And as far as expansion goes - they were absolutely HORRID. Millions of Filipinos had died rebelling against the United States since we took them from Spain... and when they imagined Japan coming in, they begged America to send more troops. The Rape of Nanking should speak for itself. Japan wanted to rule the world. Japan would not stop until every man, woman, and child had fought to the death. If we didn't drop the bombs, they all would have.

I mean, really, even when we did drop the bombs, they kept going. They were hit with the MOST DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON ON THE PLANET and they continued fighting. So we did it AGAIN, and if the EMPEROR HIMSELF hadn't stepped in, they would have kept going.

As Truman himself said, dropping the Atomic Bombs was not a hard choice. He did not mull it over. His staff didn't mull it over. The military, the government, and the public on the whole did not mull it over. They gave him the means, and it took him less than a moment to relay an order. It was the fastest way to end a war that would have outright destroyed two countries, and given the opportunity, I'd think less of a President that didn't.

absolutely, completely agree. i have my problems with Truman, but dropping the A-bomb was the right call, and one that FDR probably would not have made.

[SpideyFan914]

I'm voting on "greatness," as in, how great of an impact they had. And "great" means "good" in my book. I refuse to vote a villain as the greatest historical figure ever/up to this point.

Japan would not stop in WWII. Really. They would go down fighting

Whatever you say....

[Superpan]

About Truman.. what Johnny said. Did you know if we invaded Japan, there would have been eight million casualties in either the first week or even the first several hours? (I forget which.)

As for Stalin, I wouldn't say he was that great of a leader. His big project of collectivized farming just ended up turning him into the biggest mass-murderer in history and he was only able to keep power in Russia by saying that people in countries like America were fighting and killing each other in the streets over food.

I have homework that I put off, so the next update will be up a bit later.

[SpideyFan914]

People like to assume that it was either invade Japan or drop the atom bomb. But everyone's so stubborn that I'd just be bashed if I threw out any alternatives.

[jph139]

People like to assume that it was either invade Japan or drop the atom bomb. But everyone's so stubborn that I'd just be bashed if I threw out any alternatives.

No, go ahead; I'd really like to hear them. There's peace, obviously, but I doubt America could, in good conscience, surrender all its land in the Pacific and just leave China and Korea and the rest of Asia to their fates. And I doubt Japan would be willing to sit peacefully on their little island chain.

So, other than that... what are there? If you've got some ideas...

[Superpan]

I'd like to hear them as well. I'm a big fan of alternative history, so fire away.

[SpideyFan914]

Well, first off, I've heard rumors that Japan had, in fact, already tried to surrender, and Truman just ignored them. Even if that isn't true (though it may very well be), here's an idea proposed by my eleventh grade history teacher: Japan is not a self-sustaining country. It requires the resources from the outside. A barricade around Japan, much like the one JFK put around Cuba, would have depleted Japan of its resources and they'd STILL be forced to surrender. If my eleventh grade history teacher could think of that, I'm sure someone in Truman's offices did.

Truman didn't drop the atom bomb to end WWII. He dropped them to scare Russia.

[jph139]

Japan is not a self-sustaining country. It requires the resources from the outside. A barricade around Japan, much like the one JFK put around Cuba, would have depleted Japan of its resources and they'd STILL be forced to surrender. If my eleventh grade history teacher could think of that, I'm sure someone in Truman's offices did.

Not practicable. Japan controlled a vast majority of the Pacific, and more than anything, the region between Japan, China, and Korea. While it MIGHT be possible to blockade Japan against their other islands, sending ships into the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea would be suicide, particularly just to fuddle around. We'd need to send in a stready stream of ships, because Japan's AMAZING Navy would keep sinking them... and, I mean, you've got 2500 men on a ship, sometimes. It wouldn't take long to buildup casualities numbers in the tens of thousands, and military costs in the millions upon millions. Eventually, it would have worked, yeah; but, given the time it would take, the casualties would probably SURPASS the atomic bombings. It worked on Cuba because the Soviets didn't WANT to go to war... doesn't quite work when you're already at war.

While it would be a more "humane" choice, certainly... this is war. You do what you have to. The bombing of Hiroshima was the fastest and strongest option - someone gives you a weapon that can end a war, you use it. You don't worry about killing people. People die by the bucketful every day, and if Japan had their own atomic bomb, they would have dropped it on us. That's just what war is about.

And, as a side note, while they knew they'd be killing a lot of civilains, they had NO idea about the effects of the radiation. So, we can't put much blame on them for that.

[Superpan]

I'll admit that I'm not as knowledgeable about the Pacific arena as Europe even though my grandpa was in it. That said, I think that the thinking was that if we had troops in or around Japan, they would be constantly attacked and, with Hitler gone, the allies just wanted to end the war, instead of having more casualties on their side. A blockade, though more peaceful, may have taken too long for them and they may have lost alot of ships with Japanese planes attacking them constantly.

[SpideyFan914]

And, as a side note, while they knew they'd be killing a lot of civilains, they had NO idea about the effects of the radiation. So, we can't put much blame on them for that.

You're right. For all they knew back then, it could've been a hell of a lot worse. And why exactly did they have to drop it where civilians were anyway?

[cradleman]

You're right. For all they knew back then, it could've been a hell of a lot worse. And why exactly did they have to drop it where civilians were anyway?

as opposed to dropping it on an empty piece of ground and saying "fear us! we won't kill you, but we will blow up stuff as long as nobody is there. you should surrender!"? they had to hit a city or Japan wouldn't have cared. It's war, it ain't pretty. but they did start it by attacking Pearl Harbor in the first place, we didn't go looking for a fight.

[SpideyFan914]

as opposed to dropping it on an empty piece of ground and saying "fear us! we won't kill you, but we will blow up stuff as long as nobody is there. you should surrender!"? they had to hit a city or Japan wouldn't have cared. It's war, it ain't pretty. but they did start it by attacking Pearl Harbor in the first place, we didn't go looking for a fight.

So because this group of Japanese soldiers attacks Pearl Harbor, it makes it all right to brutally massacre that group of Japanese civilians? What is this logic based off of again?

[Superpan]

Fear mostly. Make yourself seem enough of a monster and the enemy will surrender. They were originally going to drop one on Tokyo, but for some reason didn't. That would have probably not needed a second bomb.

Well, I think its time to update.

Leonardo Da Vinci-11
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart-7
St. Nicholas-6
Harry S. Truman-5

Da Vinci and Mozart move on. I'm disappointed, but not surprised.

Stonewall Jackson- 9
Boudica-7
Hernando Cortes-5
Al Capone-3

Jackson and Boudica move on. Hopefully, there will be more voting this round.

In this match,...

...possibly the current most beloved person in the world...

Nelson Mandela
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

...the famed Roman general (and slayer of dragons)...

St. George
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._George

...the biggest showman of the Wild West...

William "Buffalo Bill" Cody
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Bill

...and the first architect.

Imhotep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep

I wonder who's going to win in this one;

...a pope who help end communism in Europe. It's also his birthday...

Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyła)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II

...a chemist...

Michael Faraday
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

...this obscure unheard of historical figure...

Who was this again? (Pure Awesomeness)
George Washington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington

...and a man who "considers himself" a writer.

Charles Dickens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens

Nelson Mandela
St. George
William "Buffalo Bill" Cody
Imhotep

Pope John Paul the II
Michael Faraday
George Washington
Charles Dickens

I'll vote later. Just remember, VOTE WASHINGTON!

[cradleman]

1. Buffalo Bill: I love the old West, and Bill Cody has always been one of my favorite figures
2. Imhotep: I'd say architecture is pretty important
3. St. George: dragon slayer? sounds cool
4. Mandela: yeah, he was the first black president of South Africa. whoopdedoo. he's a communist. that hurts him high here.

1. Michael Faraday: i fear he may need the help, but he's possibly the most brilliant chemist of all time. he worked on countless things, has his own constant used in electrical current, and was a Christian to boot.
2. George Washington: the 2nd best president ever. he's a lock to move on
3. Dickens: very important writer, but his work is a bit dry for me
4. Pope John Paul: just another pope

[jph139]

Match 15!

1. Nelson Mandela ~ Definitely one of the coolest civil rights leaders, not to mention one of the most important African presidents of all time. The fact he's still kickin' it for peace goes to show just how cool a guy he is. Absolutely love the guy. SO much respect for him.
2. St. George ~ Slayed the dragon! My favorite saint. Warrior saints are the best, no doubt.
3. Imhotep ~ Helped build pyramids and such - rather well, to say the least, as they're still around today.
4. Buffalo Bill ~ A showman for sure, but frankly, I've never been a fan.

Match 16!

1. George Washington ~ Led America, against all odds, to victory in the Revolution. Was unanimously elected President. Fought against partisan politics and foreign entanglements. Believed in the strength of the people. And a helluva fighter. After one of his first battles he wrote to his brother...
   
   "I heard the bullets whistle, and, believe me, there is something charming in the sound."
   
   As I've said, any man who's so charmed by warfare gets some props from me.
2. Pope John Paul II ~ TOTALLY the man. I mean, his Popedom was the best thing to happen to the Catholic Church since... well, ever. I mean, someone tried to assassinate him - John Paul asked the people to pray for his assassin, because he forgave him fully, and the two became very close friends afterwards. When John Paul got sick once, his assassin wrote him a "Get Well Soon" letter. Guy's the man.
3. Charles Dickens ~ Well, the man's done a lot to aid our modern ideals of Christmas. Worth something.
4. Michael Faraday ~ I'm sure his contribution are very important... but I could barely skim the first paragraph on him. Not my scene, y'know?

[SpideyFan914]

1. Mandela (Wait, he's a communist? AWESOME!)
2. Buffalo Bill (I was going to put him in first, but....)
3. St. George (Dragon slayer? Yeah, that does sound cool....)
4. Imhotep (Who?)

1. Dickens (His influence on writing cannot be overlooked.)
2. Washington (Probably the only president I actually like. Granted, I don't like him that much....)
3. St. John Paul (Happy birthday!)
4. Faraday (dG=-nFE)

[Superpan]

Match 16!

1. George Washington ~ Led America, against all odds, to victory in the Revolution. Was unanimously elected President. Fought against partisan politics and foreign entanglements. Believed in the strength of the people. And a helluva fighter. After one of his first battles he wrote to his brother...
   
   "I heard the bullets whistle, and, believe me, there is something charming in the sound."
   
   As I've said, any man who's so charmed by warfare gets some props from me.
2. Pope John Paul II ~ TOTALLY the man. I mean, his Popedom was the best thing to happen to the Catholic Church since... well, ever. I mean, someone tried to assassinate him - John Paul asked the people to pray for his assassin, because he forgave him fully, and the two became very close friends afterwards. When John Paul got sick once, his assassin wrote him a "Get Well Soon" letter. Guy's the man.
3. Charles Dickens ~ Well, the man's done a lot to aid our modern ideals of Christmas. Worth something.
4. Michael Faraday ~ I'm sure his contribution are very important... but I could barely skim the first paragraph on him. Not my scene, y'know?

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I've decided for now to abstain from the second match because I don't know how to rank them. Mandela is a great civil rights leader, but has had some shady dealings. Imhotep was the first architect, but not much else. Cody participated in Wounded Knee and in real life, George was actually a Roman general who was executed for being a Christian and that's about it. I know what you're saying, how can an Italian end up with the name George? Its because life is weird.

[The Cartoon]

1. Nelson Mendela (The guy from Inivctus, correct? Huge influence to Africa and the entire world)
2. Buffalo Bill (Gotta love the wild west)
3. Imhotep (The first architect is very important to history)
4. St. George (Sounds cool, but doesn't seem to have the historical significance of the others)

1. Charles Dickens ("A Christmas Carol" is my favorite story of all time. Dickens is one the best authors ever and needs to advance)
2. George Washington (I don't need to put him in first, he'll move on easily)
3. Michael Faraday (Don't know him, but less of a threat)
4. Pope John Paul II (Do know him, and he's alright but more of a threat)