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  1. #31
    Ed Liu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hazuda View Post
    Pretty sure McCoy specifically said he was able to synthesize Khan's blood as a serum once they recaptured him. If so, they really don't need to use them for any purpose like since they have it on-hand now.
    I had assumed McCoy had just taken Khan's blood, converted it into something he could inject into Kirk reasonably safely, and then doctored up some "critical injury" lie for the official Starfleet records to cover up what had actually happened. I suppose it's a losing game to guess too much at the pseudo-science, but time wasn't on their side here -- even in the cryotube, I don't think Kirk would have been resurrectable for long. If we assume McCoy had to work fast, I'd be surprised if he would have been able to isolate the exact compounds in Khan's blood that had the resurrection effects and create them artificially without a lot of experimentation, which would have probably required a whole lot of blood out of Khan.

    Regardless of how McCoy did it, the idea that they would have resurrection abilities now is still a bigger mess in the long run unless you sweep it all under the rug, which is what I assume they'll do.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Liu View Post
    I had assumed McCoy had just taken Khan's blood, converted it into something he could inject into Kirk reasonably safely, and then doctored up some "critical injury" lie for the official Starfleet records to cover up what had actually happened. I suppose it's a losing game to guess too much at the pseudo-science, but time wasn't on their side here -- even in the cryotube, I don't think Kirk would have been resurrectable for long. If we assume McCoy had to work fast, I'd be surprised if he would have been able to isolate the exact compounds in Khan's blood that had the resurrection effects and create them artificially without a lot of experimentation, which would have probably required a whole lot of blood out of Khan.

    Regardless of how McCoy did it, the idea that they would have resurrection abilities now is still a bigger mess in the long run unless you sweep it all under the rug, which is what I assume they'll do.
    Star Trek always had technology to aid in regeneration - itjust most people who tend to get fraged in the series don't usually have pieces left or time to get the proper medical treatment.

    I wonder if Khan recieved further Genetic Modifications upon awakening by Section 31. It would explain his healing blood and different look.
    "Truth suffers, but never dies." - Saint Teresa Of Avila

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.” - Salvor Hardin, Asimov's Foundation.

  3. #33
    Neo Ultra Mike's Avatar
    Neo Ultra Mike is offline 6000+ Posts In Space!
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    And now for my long and rambly thoughts on this movie *WARNING: Spoilers ahead for those of you who don't want any still*

    You could say I'm a casual Star Trek fan. Which is pretty much saying that I know of Star Trek but I never really specifically watched any of the episodes. I've seen clips and reviews of them sure and do remember my dad back when I was young watching a lot of The Next Generation and hearing that quite a bit in adjacent room but I never really cared that much for the property. Yeah true this is pretty much the big pinnacle of american science fiction and that really it's something you should probably at least give more then a passing shot of if you have any interst in sci fi but eh it never really personally appealed to me. I don't know why but maybe I just prefer science fiction like Star Wars that is more action and humor based instead of the more character/concept/thought based of Star Trek. Then again didn't see that much of Star Wars either growing up so maybe I just avoid the big cliches I probably shouldn't. Still when my friends wanted to see the first J.J Ahrams movie in 2009 I went in and though confused at points I overall liked it. My friend did point out that it was very different from the original mythos but yeah they made a point of stating why without it feeling like a cop out: this was an ALTERNATE REALITY version of the original crew. And I am all for the idea of reality differning not just in characters or actions but specific events causing changes on a global scale. So I was fine with the different way Kirk became captain or Spock and Uhura's relationship and it supposedly being more Star Wars like. Yeah even my limited knowledge of Star Trek knew that ST films weren't really like that in 2009 but really this was doing it's own thing and trying to respect the source material yet at the same time differ from it by telling it's own story and actually making challenges that had some balls to them that weren't just playing by the rules.

    Which may explain why I didn't care for this one at much; it felt like it was using the source material and differeng from it in a way that didn't have balls and were playing more by the standard rules and thus felt like a far weaker entry.

    I will give credit for something I haven't you may of noticed in a lot of the longer movies I've seen (yeah actually kind of weird but most of the movies I"ve seen as of late like 42 or Oblivion or Iron man 3 or Great Gatsby and this are all over 2 hours long. Don't know why since some of them didn't need that but I guess it's worth observing) in that the pacing of this actually was really fast and moving and didn't honestly feel like it dragged that much besides maybe a minute or two here and there. I mean granted that's probably because there was a lot of action in this story and it did move around a lot but it still moved fast and though there was still the "this feels like 3 climaxes" feeling a lot of action movies have at least didn't make it feel needlessly cluttered. And I really did enjoy the banter of the crew actually. Of Kirk being annoyed Spock filed a report about what happened on the mission and how Kirk disboyed orders even if meant sayving Spock's live (they didn't need to bring it up as often as they did though as it kind of got repeitive to hear after awhile). Of Uhura actually trying to peacfully communicate with the Klingons about their mission and then having to stab one once things went wrong. Of Scotty actually quitting when he didn't want to use those photon missles but still stowing aboard another ship and winding up in the commander's headquaters mucking things up there (I think him at the bar being drunk is the funniest the movie ever got actually), Of Sulu actually making an impsoing captain when he was pretending over the transmission and a lot of Bones quips (I think his best were not liking being on Spock's side for once and trying to flirt with Carol), Chekov having to adjust to being in engineering due to Scotty leaving and Pike sticking up for Kirk's action though warning him of how arrogant he is of a captain. Their banter actually did make me actaully like the crew and realize why people still have fond memories of them if they're anything like how they were in the original series and movies and showed a more human side. And hey there were some pretty good action beats. Mostly the runaway scene through that primitive planet, Kirk actually taking out John's ship by disabling the engine, the hand to hand battle of John easily taking out all those Klingons and the Spock vs "John" scene at the end with Uhura helping out. Those were all pretty good. However there were several things wrong with this movie. In fact I think I'll give a top 5 list of things I didn't really like about this particular Star Trek movie.

    5. What Exactly Does The Title Mean: Okay this may seem like a nitpick but honestly, why was this called Into Darkness? They never freaking went into darkness. What was it referring to the Klingons home world? cause really that was someplace that explored it was just set up so they weren't really allowed to go there due to it possibly causing a war. That's not really "into darkness" since not only do we not even get a real war with the Klingons but we don't even spend time with them anyway. And it's not like things even really get that dark or the characters get that dark or anything remotely that dark happens. Where exactly did they go that impliess darkness or even something related to Darkness? Maybe calling it "Star Trek: Greatest Threat" would of given too much away but it at least would of felt more geunine then naming it this generic title that has literally nothing to do with the rest of the movie. It also really annoys me that this movie had so much of it's time spent on earth yet they didn't even do much with the setting. I mean the coference room got blown up sure and there were some scenes at the bar for comedic relief or to refrence the first movie but yeah a good chunk of this one takes place on earth yet not much of consequence feels like it takes place there. Honestly it's Star Trek: so much of this could of been said to take place in another planet and it really wouldn't of mattered that much. Especially since there wasn't even that much a threat to earth at the end since it didn't really feel like the villian could of accomplished much if he even had his final revenge at the end so yeah it just feels sort of pointless having all those bits on earth when that didn't need to happen. Maybe it's easier to film but I find it more distracting then anything else for a Star Trek movie honestly.

    4. The Marcus Family Characters: Yeah I know they were put there because they refrence a certain other movie (who trust me has a lot worse refrences done here related to it) but this still bugged me since an apparent twist was that Commander Marcus was the so called villian. Who wanted an excuse to start a war with the Klingon and released John to try and have that happen and is really the reason why everything wrong in this movie honestly happens. Yet he's just such a generic presence: "Oh you need me I'm the only one who can captain this fleet who would trust you?" Blah blah. He really feels like such a lacking presence for what should be a far more big deal of a character and when he's the one who gets the actual conclsuvie and crushing death all you really feel is "oooh... imagine what that would of been like with an R rating. Would of been really gory yet probably pretty cool man." Also feels pretty hollow even for this movie to have this kind of "we must have war because we must have war even though there's no reason whatsoever I or anyone logicial would even want to have war" kind of characters. Maybe if the Klingon had been established more in this movie or even the last one I'd understand but yeah as someone whose still only has a passing knowledge at best of Star Trek I'm not going to go "oh those Klingons had it coming to them alright I'd also want to find any way I could to do to war with them" cause that's just dumb. Also dumb is Carol's whole plot because that doesn't go anywhere either. She wants to go against her father's wishes but really besides giving out information she doesn't do much since she just gets teleported to the ship so he can blow up the entertpirse without being a total ****** and just gets held in check or apparently knocked out/hurt and can't particpate that much in the rest of the movie. What was she really there for anyway? Fanservice in terms of her body and refrenceing a character from another Star Trek movie? I'm guessing that was the case as in this one she just felt there. The mystery with her character was instantly solved so that wasn't a source of tension or alarm whatsoever, she didn't have any chemistry or real relationship with anyone on board the enterprise and really they easily could of found a way for someone else actually on board the ship to have her role without having to bring in a fresh new "leading lady" for the part. Give it to one of those actual not human looking aliens and prove Star Trek is a bit more diverse then what most people percieve it as.

    3. Uhura And Spock's Relationship: As I said since I'm not a long term fan I have no problem with the two being in a relationship at all. Even though with how cold and out of it Spock still acts you have to wonder what exactly he's getting from this since half the time he acts totally stiff like he has no care for emotion whatsoever. What I'm complaining about though is how it was handled in this one: for like half the movie Uhura has a grudge against Spock because he was resigned to die without a second thought in the beginning with the volcano. And granted it makes her look selfish when she things like "you didn't think about us when you were about to die" but again I get it and it could of led to an interesting debate of ethics or even actually talking about more of phiosphical difference a vulcan and a human would have with one another in a relationship. and it could of been led to make both more interesting and realize just exactly what they would have to cormpmise or work on for this relationship to work. But no that gets swept under the rug when in the middle of the two arguing Spock just says "I don't want to feel pain again after I lost my planet". Which is understandable and actually kind of a good moment on it's own. The problem was though that THIS was how the whole relathiponship between the two really ended: it was hinted at in the first half and brought up like it was building to something and then we get this and it's never brought up again. Maybe we could of delved more into Uhura if she at one point talked to Spock about her hardships growing up and trying to tell him it's okay to feel and to have emotions consume you sometimes. Or hey even showed again how different Vulcans and humans think with how the two handle emotions or feelings but no, instantly wrapped up. Really weak there guys. Honestly I don't like it when movies feel just to include ALL auidences they have to bring up romance for a film even though there doesn't really need to be any. But if you have it and are dead set on putting it in and putting in things to acutally impact the relationsip let it happen and change organically and don't just cut it out midway. And no Uhura appearing at the end to save Spock doesn't o**** because all she said to him was "don't kill Kahn cause he's the only one who can help us save Kirk." So yeah that seems like a good cutaway to talk about my far bigger problems with the movie.

    2. Kahnnnnnnnnnnn: Yeah in one of those "everyone sort of assumed but the creators wanted to keep a secret that no one was able to keep a secret after seeing the movie" twists, we find out that the villian Benderich Cumberach is playing that was called John is actually Kahn. Probably the most well known single villian in Star Trek history thanks of course to the most well known and well loved movie in the Star Trek Franchise: The Wrath of Kahn. Yeah, even people who don't like Star Trek actually like that movie, and even people who are totally ignorant of the entire franchise should at least be vagley aware of lines like "did you know that revenge is a dish best served cold" "I wish to go on hurting you" and of course the infamous "KAHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" scream. Richard Montalban may be known to most people as "the guy who said he'd make their dreams come true but just wanted to teach people life lessons" in Fantasy Island but his juiceist and most intruging role was that of Kahn. ANd again I didn't see the original Star Trek 2 but I've seen enough clips and read enough about it to see why: not only did the guy actually have a compelling backstory (that actually tied to the original series so this was a confrontation that was actually building and had been previously established) but he had a good amount of screentime and charm and life breathed into his character that made you want to see more of him. That even if you didn't cheer for him you could see why he was such a great villian. That he wasn't just quoting Shakesphere or famous literally works for the hell of it but for a specific point and this hatred and desire for revenge made him incredibly devious and incredibly compelling to watch and make you wonder "just how is Kirk going to get out of this one?"

    Benderich Cummerdich's take on him though... yeah so not that. To be fair it's not really Benedict's fault because in the couple of scenes we get to see Kahn alone he's fine. Like approaching that one guy or trapped under the forcefield or blasting away the Klingons and then Kirk wailing on him. The problem is though this movie doesn't really give him that much more time to shine besids that. A lot of what the guy says is more plot based then character based since based on this movie all I know about Kahn is that he has some loyality to his other frozen friends, is super strong and knows how to manipulate stupid enough people yet still can't see thorugh their facade and can survive explosions. There is no big character or grandiose or bravada to him in many more scenes that make you want to see more of him. And really I'm not going to go with the whole "oh they just don't make villians like that anymore" because yeah, they easily could of made him a lot more compelling. I mean the Joker was incredible in the Dark Knight and I really liked Loki in the Avengers and they're not suppose to be nearly as complex as Kahn is. Yet you don't get that here due to how minimal his role is and how little an impact it is. Not to mention that they litearlly do build him up as according to old Spock (whose cameo in thsi movie isn't nearly as good as it was in the 2009 Star Trek movie BTW) that he's the ultimate threat to the crew and was it's worse nemesis. And you really don't feel that when a lot more time is spent on running through hallways, talking with other people on deck or trying to save the ship. Really thinking about it the whole scene of Kahn supposedly showing his true nature and killing Marcus and then demanding his crew felt so empty due to like 5 minutes later him being taken out of the picture for like 20 minutes due to the ship brekaing apart. And yeah the Enterprise is special but Kahn's suppose to be the villian: we're suppose ot have more time spent with him then the supposed loss of the ship that doesn't even happen. Oh and of by far the worst thing about this movie that ticks me off the most when talking about this:

    1. Ripping Off The Ending To Star Trek 2 In The Worst Way Possible: Again I don't know much about the Star Trek franchise but besides Kahnnnnnn, the big reason that people remember the original Star Trek 2 is the death of Spock. Yeah he comes back in the third movie but film goers didn't know that at the time. That movie ended with the character still dead and really him apparently being alive and kicking in third gave it a hook and made you want to watch it so you'd know how they brought spock back. But apparently actually trusting your viewers and not giving them a super happy definitie answer isn't what J.J and his crew want to do so yeah the cut the pacakge off of this one in the worst way possible. And don't give mt the "ohhhhhh they wanted to do things differently" excuse because if that was the case they wouldn't of even ripped off Kahn or had so much of this ending mirror Star Trek 2 like they did. Really when you have a major crew member sacrifice their life and knock out another member of the team just to stop them from throwing themself away and of the two best friends looking at each other as one saved the ship and gave his live before passing away and one couldn't reach out to touch him due to the toxins, pretty obvious what you're oging with. Just because it was Kirk who died instead of Spock doesn't mean it's less of a rip off. And hey if they wanted to do that and actually end it with Kirk giving his life and Spock taking control of the enteripse, that would of actaully been nifty. It would of given this some weight and actually we could of seen how Kirk's wreckless actions do have some serious consequences and actually made his "this ship needs a captain that isn't me" speech actually have some geuinine weight and pompous to it. And really the third star trek movie could of been just how different and hollow Spock and the Enteruprise is without Kirk and him coming back in some form and that being it's own mystery. That would of roped viewers in as since the marvel movies have proved, introducing one thing in a movie and having it pay off in another is something viewers are fine with. But no, this one instead decided "yeah kirk dies but Kahn's blood can bring him back so we'll just joke that he died for 10 minutes and he'll be in the end like it's no big deal." That to me felt like kind of an offensive or at very least like an insult to the original franchise: like it was afraid or scared to take the risks that one took. As even though people didn't like say what happened with the Mandrain in Iron Man 3 at least that was a different unique take on the character that actually felt like it was trying something you don't normally see. This was the same sort of bull crap "he's dead ... oh no wait he's alive again" thing we see in nearly every movie and to have it be a refrence to a movie that actually had enough respect fo it's dead to make that sacrifice mean something doesn't work. It feels cheap and honestly like the writers and staff are cashing in on the name of Star Trek rather then remembering it or giving it's proper dues.

    So yeah those are my thoughts on this one. Not a bad movie but these things do tick me off about it say it was a lot weaker then I thought it would be and honestly a sign that this franchise needs better writers or to go in a new direction. One that can actaully honor and do new things with the old material in a way that actually works. Or at least works better then a kind of mediocre film/a good film with a lot of glaring problems. Again IMHO at least.
    Instead of just using this new signature to celebrate a thousand more post, let me list of all the great things you can expect of me on this board for 2012:

    ...... The same talkbacks you saw me do last year but with new episodes.

    .... What are you doing still reading this? Move to the next post already! .

  4. #34
    Gatomon41's Avatar
    Gatomon41 is offline Digital Cat Rabbit Thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Ultra Mike;4119914(snip)
    Benderich Cummerdich's take on him though... yeah so not that. To be fair it's not really Benedict's fault because in the couple of scenes we get to see Kahn alone he's fine. Like approaching that one guy or trapped under the forcefield or blasting away the Klingons and then Kirk wailing on him. The problem is though this movie doesn't really give him that much more time to shine besids that.
    Almost every single scene with nuTrek Khan is him shining - he doesn't just brag that's he better at everything... Khan IS better at everything. The legendary Kirk couldn't punch him out, couldn't stop him in the end, and even died trying to stop him. It was Spock, with his logic and strength equal to Khan, to stop the bad guy. And technically, it was Khan who saves Krik's life.

    And keep in mind, this is supposed to be before the events that would change Khan to the person he is in "Wrath of Khan":
    Spoiler:
    The reason why Khan is so wrathful is because he blames Kirk for his hellish situation - his wife is dead, his loyal crew suffering, and they're stuck on a Death World. His logic has been clouded, his cool compromised because of this. Darkness Khan hasn't lived through this nightmare.

    At this point, Khan is actually consistent with the character from "Gundam Seed".

    ...

    I mean "Space Seed". Sorry.

    A lot of what the guy says is more plot based then character based since based on this movie all I know about Kahn is that he has some loyalty to his other frozen friends, is super strong and knows how to manipulate stupid enough people yet still can't see thorugh their facade and can survive explosions. There is no big character or grandiose or bravada to him in many more scenes that make you want to see more of him.
    What about all his brilliant and outlandish plots, his cunning, his boundless ruthlessness? The guy is oozing bravado, but not in such a outright way - He shows, not tells.

    And really I'm not going to go with the whole "oh they just don't make villians like that anymore" because yeah, they easily could of made him a lot more compelling. I mean the Joker was incredible in the Dark Knight and I really liked Loki in the Avengers and they're not suppose to be nearly as complex as Kahn is. Yet you don't get that here due to how minimal his role is and how little an impact it is. Not to mention that they litearlly do build him up as according to old Spock (whose cameo in thsi movie isn't nearly as good as it was in the 2009 Star Trek movie BTW) that he's the ultimate threat to the crew and was it's worse nemesis. And you really don't feel that when a lot more time is spent on running through hallways, talking with other people on deck or trying to save the ship. Really thinking about it the whole scene of Kahn supposedly showing his true nature and killing Marcus and then demanding his crew felt so empty due to like 5 minutes later him being taken out of the picture for like 20 minutes due to the ship brekaing apart. (snip)
    I found Khan to be far more subtle. With his cool intact and unclouded by rage, he doesn't have to chew the scenery to be a danger. His icy stare, his calm but biting tongue, his plots display superior intellect, and he can take on blows without a flinch. This was a guy would could have won.
    "Truth suffers, but never dies." - Saint Teresa Of Avila

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.” - Salvor Hardin, Asimov's Foundation.

  5. #35
    the greenman's Avatar
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    Does anyone think Kirk deliberately created the death situation like Spock did in Wrath. I keep thinking in the back of my mind the new Kirk is a bridge between the two universes because of the mind meld. He could have done it out of repressed memories of Spock.

  6. #36
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    Yes I do.

    Like I said earlier, this movie dealt a lot with opposites.

    In the original universe, Kirk would NEVER give up even if he has to look death in the face and bluff it for the win; or in the case of the Wrath of Khan, even if it means sacrificing his friend (which in fairness he wouldn't have WILLINGLY done).

    In this movie, we're not dealing with a Kirk that has that kind of resolve. His resolve is to save his crew at all costs even if he has to look death in the face and LOSE the bluff knowing he is going to lose the bluff. In the original universe, he wouldn't have left the bridge because he would have had so much resolve in his ability to bring about a solution to win the day but in this case, his resolve was to win at ANY cost. It's a polar opposite. He wasn't suicidal per say, he wasn't looking to die, he just simply had resolve in Spock's ability to win the conflict through his actions like Spock had the resolve for Kirk to win the battle through his actions in the Wrath of Khan.

    That's really where the eloquence from this movie comes from and something I REALLY admire about it. When you pick the movie apart situation by situation, you really get a feeling that JJ Abrams really thought about each and every scenario here carefully and he didn't do by absolutely confining himself to the events of Wrath of Khan.

  7. #37
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    DarkAngel is offline Lord Vader
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    Some various thoughts about the movie:

    When I saw the prologue before The Hobbit, it didn't feel like it flowed well. Fortunately, I realized there were segments cut out for the prologue. It definitely played better in the movie, which was a relief. I really liked the Prime Directive playing a prominent role at the beginning. Its been mentioned a lot over the years in episodes, but there never seemed to be any problem at tossing aside whenever. I loved here the reaction from Spock, which was palpable, at realizing that pre-warp civilization had seen Enterprise. And, the reaction from SF with Kirk losing his command.

    I especially loved the scene in Pike's office with Kirk having glossed over what happened in his report, while Spock layed it all out in his. It was interesting to see them go there, because whenever I watch Space Seed or TWOK, I often wonder exactly what Kirk put in his report, and what he left out. I realize the writers of the episode probably didn't give it much thought. It was nearing the end of the episode, they needed to close things out, Kirk uses his "authority" to offer pardons and leave Khan and his people on the planet. The writers probably weren't thinking about what happened next, how Starfleet would react, etc. But, watching TWOK, I was definitely wondering those things. I've found it very hard to believe SF would just allow Kirk decision to stand, given how dangerous the augments are. Allowing their civilization to flourish unchecked could mean disaster for the rest of the galaxy. The best way I could wrap my mind around there being no special precautions around the Ceti Alpha sysem, Reliant captain having no clue/warning Khan was in the vicinity, etc, was that Kirk either left things out of his report, or didn't report it. And that led me to wonder whether that would stand with Spock, did he file his own report, etc..

    Anyway, I've rambled on, but given how often I've wondered about the above, I found it very cool to see a scene touching on this kind of thing.

    Also found the scene with Pike and Kirk at the bar exceptional. Beyond revisiting where these two men met (and seeing their different recollections of it - "it was a good fight" from Kirk), I loved when they got past the small talk and Pike layed it out there that he had been given Enterprise back, and the long pause as Kirk processed that before offering congratulations. I know, like Kirk, that having the center seat has to mean a lot to Pike and be what he'd ultimately want. It reminded me a lot of Admiral Kirk and Captain Decker in TMP, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was on the writers minds with this scene.

    Got a kick out of Section 31 being mentioned, as well, being such a huge fan of DS9. In general, like these types of stories. Aspects were similar to DS9's Home Front/Paradise Lost with Admiral Marcus in the shoes of Admiral Leyton.

    The first 1/3 of the movie if probably my favorite, with a lot of great stuff in there.

    Wished we could have seen more of Vengeance, but what we got was solid, particularly it overtaking Enterprise during warp. I also liked that the consequences of transwarp beaming being used in the last movie hadn't been forgotten.

    I might as well jump to the controversial part: Kirk's death/resurrection. I didn't mind the mirroring of TWOK. I think that was because, once you get past the repeated dialogue, the real heart of the scene was in Kirk and Spock's dialogue on either side of that glass partition, and it stemmed from things that were building throughout this movie. If one had never seen TWOK, I doubt they'd find any of this to come from left field. It would play as a natural extension of Kirk and Spock's relationship and things they had been struggling with over this and the prior movie.

    Regarding Spock's emotions toward Kirk, it's not just about how long they've known one another. It felt like the "last straw", to borrow from Scotty, after the loss of Spock's mother, his people/homeworld, and Pike (and the loneliness/fear he felt in their meld). Add in Kirk breaking the PD to save Spock, and then losing his command over it because of Spock's report, (and the relationship strain with Uhura), and I think there was a lot Spock was carrying that understandably manifested.

    Had no problem with Spock screaming "Khan!!!!", either, given the above and Quinto selling it with his rage. "Last straw" again on top of everything this Spock has gone through over two movies. That anger also drove the following sequence with Spock going after Khan and now very much inhabiting and experiencing what Kirk had earlier in the movie when he wanted to hunt down Khan.

    On another forum, someone mentioned that the torpedos carrying augments with restorative/life-giving blood (at least in Khan's case), could perhaps be seen as variation on the Genesis torpedo. Interesting to consider in STID, given Carol's interest in the torpedoes, and knowing that (at least in the other timeline) she goes on to have involvement in the creation of Genesis, this then could be where it begins in this timeline. The restorative/regenerative aspect of Khan's blood being adapted/applied to what will become the Genesis Device.

    I've also been wondering whether Section 31 could have made any additions/modifications to Khan themselves. Orci, in a post at Trekmovie.com, in response to a question about why Khan would look different (than in SS/TWOK), had put forth the possibility of 31 surgically altering him to further conceal his true identity. Could Section 31 have played any role in the restorative aspect of Khan's blood? If so, itwould be interesting to consider Admiral Marcus as the origins of "Genesis" here vs Carol and David in TWOK. And in STID, having its beginnings in militaristic/destructive potential, but later bringing life; while in TWOK, originally conceived to bring life, but later pursued by Khan, and later Kruge, for its destructive power.

    Was wracking my brain trying to figure out what the McCoy "steady hands" bit was a reference to. Felt like in was in the context of a woman saying it, but couldn't place it...until a little while ago...Dax in Trials and Tribble-ations. Not sure if that itself was a reference to a TOS episode. Of course, the scene with Carol and McCoy and the torpedo is probably also a nod to McCoy "operating" on a torpedo with Spock in VI.

    It was also interesting hearing George Kirk's voice from Jim's birth right before Kirk awakens at the end. Definitely gets at a rebirth for Kirk. With Nero's arrival, he lost the father he was supposed to have, was lost for a period, but perhaps even with Pike stepping into his life, it wasn't enough. We see him at his potential worst in this movie, bent on a vendetta against Harrison/Khan, and not quite caring if his crew/family wasn't with him. It nearly cost them all their lives. But the experiences of this movie, and death/resurrection has perhaps brought him to being the man he was meant to be. His words at the end, with Enterprise re-christened and on the verge of the 5-year mission, seem to indicate a changed man.

    In the commentary for the 2009 movie, Orci or Kurtzman had likened Kirk/Spock to Lennon/McCartney. I loved that, as a Beatles fan, and I definitely see it. Paul and John made each other better. I appreciated Kirk and Spock in this movie trying to put themselves in the others shoes. Kirk was doing that at the beginning with Spock in the volcano, and trying to figure out what Spock would do if their positions were reversed. We saw that again at the end, with Jim saying he had done what Spock would have done (and what Spock did do in TWOK), with Spock saying the same regarding using what Khan wanted against him.

    Liked the Captain Sulu part. A reference to Hikaru eventually having his own command, but also reminded me of Captain Chekov in V. With Chekov, though he had the least to do, I liked that they found a way to keep him involved via engineering. Liked his reaction to being told to switch to the red shirt. I wondered, too, whether the reference to him having shadowed Scotty in engineering, and then being sent down there, was in a way an explanation for where he'd been in Space Seed, given we hadn't seen him on the bridge, but that Khan remembered him being on board in TWOK.

    Someone on another forum pointed out that Carol telling Admiral Marcus how ashamed she is to be his daughter as an interesting variation on David telling Admiral Kirk how proud he is to be his son.

    Also found it interesting when looking at Spock pounding away at Khan while he was on the ground at the end as a parallel to young Spock beating up the kid who was insulting his mother. Not sure what to do with that observation, but thought it was neat.
    Last edited by DarkAngel; 05-25-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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  8. #38
    The ShopSoldier's Avatar
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    Just like the first one before it, I enjoyed it for what it was - a proper deconstruction of a popular franchise, except done right IMHO... Something we don't always see enough of nowadays in terms of results...

    The only thing that holds it back from greatness IMHO is its ending - felt like a deus ex machina to me, sadly.

    Oh, well - because of that, I think a 4/5 is a fitting enough score for me (in short, it still kicked butt for me, nonetheless!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The ShopSoldier View Post
    Just like the first one before it, I enjoyed it for what it was - a proper deconstruction of a popular franchise, except done right IMHO... Something we don't always see enough of nowadays in terms of results...

    The only thing that holds it back from greatness IMHO is its ending - felt like a deus ex machina to me, sadly.

    Oh, well - because of that, I think a 4/5 is a fitting enough score for me (in short, it still kicked butt for me, nonetheless!).
    I don't think it counts as a deus ex machina
    Spoiler:
    They set the solution up right with the scene were Khan cures that kid, and Bones studying Khan's blood. Like any Chekov's Gun, they had to use it for some major reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by the greenman View Post
    Does anyone think Kirk deliberately created the death situation like Spock did in Wrath. I keep thinking in the back of my mind the new Kirk is a bridge between the two universes because of the mind meld. He could have done it out of repressed memories of Spock.
    That would explain why it's so similar to Wrath. Interesting theory with the mind meld being a bridge.

    Wait. Bridge... Kirk's Death ... Agggh!
    "Truth suffers, but never dies." - Saint Teresa Of Avila

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatomon41 View Post
    That would explain why it's so similar to Wrath. Interesting theory with the mind meld being a bridge.
    It also seemed similar to Generations to me, with Kirk going down to the engine room to try to save the ship.

    With the actual death scene, there's the reversal of the TWOK death scene, but it also occurred to me that we also saw a reverse/mirror of "death" scene in TSFS where Enterprise is sacrificed so that Kirk and the others might live. Here, it was Kirk sacrificing himself, so that Enterprise would live. Seeing the ship falling into the atmosphere brought up TSFS strongly for me, but this time it wasn't Kirk on the surface thinking "My God, what have I done", but on board the ship giving his life to keep Enterprise from dying.
    There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance.
    --Bucky Katt, Get Fuzzy.

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